NEIPA Bottle Oxidation and alternatives?

[Nubiwan]

Hmmm, hope my title is not misleading. I plan to make a NEIPA in time for Christmas. I am simply aiming for a hop forward ale to enjoy over the holidays. Had a few very decent commercial NEIPAs lately, so wanted to give it a go. I am preparing for some challenges, as I am limited to bottle conditioning with my setup.

Question 1: Does anyone care to recommend a good NEIPA recipe, that might withstand bottle conditioning? Or simply a recipe that has worked well in bottles?

Question 2: Am I better off avoiding the style altogether and perhaps aiming for a hop forward amber or West Coast styled IPA, and the apparent disappointment that oxidation (colour change at least) brings to the ale. With the latter, I might not be as disappointed with the loss of colour many people seem to experience.

Question 3. Am I going to have oxidation issues, whatever IPA style I attempt to bottle condition? That is, a loss of hop aroma over several weeks. I think I will.

Thanks ALL - Tis the Season - Almost!

 

[nreed]

I was about to post these exact questions! Following in hope!

 

[Jag75]

Yes its true that oxidation is an issue especially with hoppy beers. If I were you I would bottle prime each bottle then bottle right from your fv.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Over the past couple of years, both HBT and /r/homebrewing have had a couple of really good threads on successfully bottling NEIPAs (for example: link).

 

[shoreman]

Recipe-wise I would go with this one or Fort Point clone How To Pale Ale | Trillium - just look up Fort Point Clone. It's my house NEIPA.

As for bottling, I think its more important what happens before bottling - what do you have for a fermenter? Can you bottle straight from primary? Before bottling you want to make sure you introduce as little oxygen as you can while dry hopping.

You might want to use a kveik yeast to turn it around quickly, but bottle condition with some champagne yeast since kveik isn't super reliable conditioning.

Bottling is not the problem, the yeast will suck up the oxygen in the bottle, just be careful. Even Vinnie Cilurzo mentioned in a podcast that no need to flush bottles with C02 on hoppy beers if bottle conditioning.

 

[ATLBeer]

Just started brewing again after about 20 years and this whole oxidation preoccupation is a new phenomenon.

I used to extract brew IPAs the old fashion way -> bucket fermenter, rack to carboy, dry hop with a bag, prime in a bottling bucket, bottle in used Sam Adams glass. Beer was perfect in 4-6 weeks of conditioning.

I've got a couple of batches in fermenters now so, I'll see if the oxygen has really changed that much.

Homebrewing and craft brewing have become very haughty in the time I've been gone. There are lots of new shiny toys and stainless bangles to buy these days. And a lot of opinions and theories about taste and quality to justify spending thousands of dollars on equipment.

IPAs have been around for over 200 years, and oxygen slightly longer than that. So I'm not sure that CO2 equipment is required for every step of the process like some will have you believe.

My advice: Brew what you want. Don't disturb the beer more than you have to. Fill your bottles to about an inch of the cap. Enjoy.

If you are paranoid about it, get some oxygen absorbing caps.

GL!

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

It is definitely possible to bottle condition NEIPA without the much dreaded browning and near total loss of hop aroma/flavor.

I bottled my first one on Aug 23rd and even now, almost 3 months post bottling, the beer is not showing signs of darkening. The hop flavor is still intense, although it surely lost a bit of brightness as compared to 2 months ago. But I would not be afraid to serve it to other people and still call it a NEIPA.

Prior to that, I used to bottle mostly IPAs/APAs of the "west coastish" type, so I gained some experience that was surely helpful in making this first bottle conditioned NEIPA work. I and other contributors detailed our experiences bottling hoppy beers in the thread that @BrewnWKopperKat linked above.


In summary, here the tricks that worked (or that I believe have worked) for my system:
- No cold crash, I am a believer in the power of active yeast to scavenge at least some O2 if conditions are right. Even not considering the recently-much-discussed potential problem of air suckback during cold crash, if yeast needs to reawaken first, O2 will have more time to damage your beer.
- To compensate for skipping the cold crash I leave all my beers, including hoppy ones, at least one month in primary. The NEIPA was no exception, it sat full 5 weeks in the fermenter.
- I add a tiny bit of sugar solution together with the dry hops (approx 1 oz for 6-7 gallons), for the same purpose of helping the yeast left in suspension wake up again. This is about 4-5 days prior to bottling. I have no idea if this helps (probably not?)...but it did not harm for sure.
- After filling the bottles, purge the headspace with CO2 or some other inert gas and then cap immediately, OR fill the bottles almost to the top leaving as little headspace as possible.
- For this NEIPA batch, I started adding some ascorbic acid together with the dry hops (thanks again for the tip, @tyrub42 ;-)). I think it had a very noticeable effect, as well. Even the bottles where I did not purge the headspace did not turn darker (as it usually happened in previous trials without the ascorbic acid).

Other than that, I do things that would be considered blasphemous in a NEIPA context, such as openly transferring to a bottling bucket, mixing in the priming solution and so on... Hell, I even literally strain the beer through a monofilament filter on the way to the bottling bucket to get rid of residual dry hop particles (although I take care as to minimize splashing in the bottling bucket, and I do not believe this straining step exposes the beer to much more O2 as compared to a normal transfer, because the filter is submerged in the beer most of the time).

Good luck and do not let you intimidate by opinions that say bottling NEIPA is impossible!

 

[Vale71]

IPAs have been around for over 200 years, and oxygen slightly longer than that.

Yes, and much of what people ate and drank 200 years ago without giving it a second thought we would find questionable if not outright disgusting today. Don't even get me started on personal hygiene and living conditions...

So what's your point, if it was good enough for smelly, sickly, half-starved 19th Century men and women then it must be good enough for us?

Some of us have tried the difference and were amazed by it. Others are happy to keep on living in ignorance and sometimes even scorn those who don't do like them. Nothing new under the sun...

 

[doogie]

I know it's huge, but check out this thread American IPA - "Northeast" style IPA
and in particular search for posts by SRJHops - he worked hard at bottling NEIPAs and I believe he had success (if I remember correctly)

 

[ATLBeer]

Vale -

The OP wanted to try a NEIPA and has freaked out about all the oxidation threads on the forum.

My point was that he should go ahead and try it.

Your post makes my other point about the hobby getting haughty though, so thanks.

 

[Vale71]

My point was that he should go ahead and try it.

You might have made your point just as well without trying to ridicule those who have gone to great lenghts to improve the quality of their homebrewed beer, including but not limited to oxygen mitigation, but that's just IMHO of course...

Your post makes my other point about the hobby getting haughty though, so thanks.

You're welcome.

 

[shoreman]

Just started brewing again after about 20 years and this whole oxidation preoccupation is a new phenomenon.
I used to extract brew IPAs the old fashion way -> bucket fermenter, rack to carboy, dry hop with a bag, prime in a bottling bucket, bottle in used Sam Adams glass. Beer was perfect in 4-6 weeks of conditioning.

I've been brewing about the same but an IPA back then didn't include huge amounts of adjuncts and 8-10oz of hops in a 5 gallons batch. I'd be luckily if I put 2oz of hops and dry hopped with 1 or 2 oz's.

That's the reason people are obsessing about oxidation - these beers turn quickly. Go buy a NEIPA and pour into a glass take a picture and leave it out on the counter overnight - it will be brown and gross looking in the morning

 

[jddevinn]

Just started brewing again after about 20 years and this whole oxidation preoccupation is a new phenomenon.

Homebrewing and craft brewing have become very haughty in the time I've been gone. And a lot of opinions and theories about taste and quality to justify spending thousands of dollars on equipment.

Or in the last 20 years the hobby has developed and the techniques have caught up to commercial practices. While some items may not make a noticeable, or an economic, difference to some brewers the majority of the best practices are not "opinions and theories" but known science. Brewing is something that you can get several BS degrees in and the homebrewing community has started to use the same resources as professionals.

NEIPAs are VERY sensitive to oxidation, more than a East or West coast IPA.

 

[Nubiwan]

Thanks all. I did read (some of) the massive 300 page IPA thread note above, and it is one of those recipes that I might try. The oxidation issue is not limited to this forum alone, as I am sure many of you know.

I have also made some rather simple IPAs in the past, though hardly any real hop heavy efforts, and I found the IPA twang (is that a proper braumeister phrase?) dissipated over the month or so the bottles actually lasted.

I am going to be super cautious with my bottle process, and hope the heavy hop bill see me through.

What about whirlpooling vs dry hopping, and or both? Any one care to suggest what process they use? Works best?

 

[Jag75]

I whirlpool and dry hop

 

[Nubiwan]

Recipe-wise I would go with this one or Fort Point clone How To Pale Ale | Trillium - just look up Fort Point Clone. It's my house NEIPA.

As for bottling, I think its more important what happens before bottling - what do you have for a fermenter? Can you bottle straight from primary? Before bottling you want to make sure you introduce as little oxygen as you can while dry hopping.

You might want to use a kveik yeast to turn it around quickly, but bottle condition with some champagne yeast since kveik isn't super reliable conditioning.

Bottling is not the problem, the yeast will suck up the oxygen in the bottle, just be careful. Even Vinnie Cilurzo mentioned in a podcast that no need to flush bottles with C02 on hoppy beers if bottle conditioning.

@shoreman - Care to link your recipe (s)? Did a search, and could not find it. Not sure I did the correct search parameters, but for what I did, explicitly entered "Four Point Clone" searched everywhere, it did not come up.

 

[shoreman]

This pretty much the exact recipe from the BYO article where the owner JC gives his recipe out here (Trillium Brewing Company: Fort Point Pale Ale clone - Brew Your Own)

https://brewgr.com/recipe/72489/trillium-fort-point-pale-ale-clone-recipe

Scroll to the bottom here and there’s a recipe How To Pale Ale | Trillium

 

[tyrub42]

It is definitely possible to bottle condition NEIPA without the much dreaded browning and near total loss of hop aroma/flavor.

I bottled my first one on Aug 23rd and even now, almost 3 months post bottling, the beer is not showing signs of darkening. The hop flavor is still intense, although it surely lost a bit of brightness as compared to 2 months ago. But I would not be afraid to serve it to other people and still call it a NEIPA.

Prior to that, I used to bottle mostly IPAs/APAs of the "west coastish" type, so I gained some experience that was surely helpful in making this first bottle conditioned NEIPA work. I and other contributors detailed our experiences bottling hoppy beers in the thread that @BrewnWKopperKat linked above.


In summary, here the tricks that worked (or that I believe have worked) for my system:
- No cold crash, I am a believer in the power of active yeast to scavenge at least some O2 if conditions are right. Even not considering the recently-much-discussed potential problem of air suckback during cold crash, if yeast needs to reawaken first, O2 will have more time to damage your beer.
- To compensate for skipping the cold crash I leave all my beers, including hoppy ones, at least one month in primary. The NEIPA was no exception, it sat full 5 weeks in the fermenter.
- I add a tiny bit of sugar solution together with the dry hops (approx 1 oz for 6-7 gallons), for the same purpose of helping the yeast left in suspension wake up again. This is about 4-5 days prior to bottling. I have no idea if this helps (probably not?)...but it did not harm for sure.
- After filling the bottles, purge the headspace with CO2 or some other inert gas and then cap immediately, OR fill the bottles almost to the top leaving as little headspace as possible.
- For this NEIPA batch, I started adding some ascorbic acid together with the dry hops (thanks again for the tip, @tyrub42 ;-)). I think it had a very noticeable effect, as well. Even the bottles where I did not purge the headspace did not turn darker (as it usually happened in previous trials without the ascorbic acid).

Other than that, I do things that would be considered blasphemous in a NEIPA context, such as openly transferring to a bottling bucket, mixing in the priming solution and so on... Hell, I even literally strain the beer through a monofilament filter on the way to the bottling bucket to get rid of residual dry hop particles (although I take care as to minimize splashing in the bottling bucket, and I do not believe this straining step exposes the beer to much more O2 as compared to a normal transfer, because the filter is submerged in the beer most of the time).

Good luck and do not let you intimidate by opinions that say bottling NEIPA is impossible!

So glad you have been having so much success! I do quite a few things differently, but the most important thing is that we're managing to bottle the NEIPAs we love and still have them tasting great months later. Cheers to you, sir

 

[doogie]

Thanks all. I did read (some of) the massive 300 page IPA thread note above, and it is one of those recipes that I might try. The oxidation issue is not limited to this forum alone, as I am sure many of you know.

I have also made some rather simple IPAs in the past, though hardly any real hop heavy efforts, and I found the IPA twang (is that a proper braumeister phrase?) dissipated over the month or so the bottles actually lasted.

I am going to be super cautious with my bottle process, and hope the heavy hop bill see me through.

What about whirlpooling vs dry hopping, and or both? Any one care to suggest what process they use? Works best?

Basic recipe I use is:
2-Row for most of the mash, normally a pound each of wheat and flaked oats, maybe a new ounces of honey malt
Minimal hops during the last 15 minutes of the boil, then 6 ounces in the whirlpool
After fermentation is complete, I ramp up the temp to 70 degrees F or so to clean up, then cold crash to drop the yeast out, then warm back up to 60 degrees F for dryhop (around 6 oz) for 3 or 4 days, then another cold crash to drop the hops, keg, carbonate and enjoy.

Once I started dryhopping after cold crashing my aroma improved dramatically.

 

[Nubiwan]

Some comments on my Grain / Hop Bill would be welcomed:

This is a pretty simple BIAB process - then to bottles.

6 Gallons to be packaged - estimated ABV 5.25% - TBD on efficiency and mash

Grains:
5 # Canadian 2-row
5 # Golden Promise
1 # Wheat
1 # Flaked Barley
1 # Flaked Oats
1/4 # Honey Malt

Yeast
US-05

Hops
Whirlpool around 160 let stand for 20-30 minutes - stir? (is stirring key)
1.5 oz Citra
.5 oz Galaxy
1 oz mosaic

Dry Hop
Plan to repeat Whirlpool Hop Amounts as Fermentations slows down - day 4-5 - and let stand for further 4-6 days, then Bottle. Minimize oxidation while bottling. Fill to near top. I do use a bottling bucket. Just easier. Got no wand.

Am I closer to a Pale Ale than an NEIPA with my smaller Hop Schedule? I see some massive amounts in other recipes. Will increasing the dry hop amounts see me over the "NEIPA" aroma/flavour top?

Comments invited / welcomed

 

[doogie]

Some comments on my Grain / Hop Bill would be welcomed:

This is a pretty simple BIAB process - then to bottles.

6 Gallons to be packaged - estimated ABV 5.25% - TBD on efficiency and mash

Grains:
5 # Canadian 2-row
5 # Golden Promise
1 # Wheat
1 # Flaked Barley
1 # Flaked Oats
1/4 # Honey Malt

Yeast
US-05

Hops
Whirlpool around 160 let stand for 20-30 minutes - stir? (is stirring key)
1.5 oz Citra
.5 oz Galaxy
1 oz mosaic

Dry Hop
Plan to repeat Whirlpool Hop Amounts as Fermentations slows down - day 4-5 - and let stand for further 4-6 days, then Bottle. Minimize oxidation while bottling. Fill to near top. I do use a bottling bucket. Just easier. Got no wand.

Am I closer to a Pale Ale than an NEIPA with my smaller Hop Schedule? I see some massive amounts in other recipes. Will increasing the dry hop amounts see me over the "NEIPA" aroma/flavour top?

Comments invited / welcomed

Looks fine to me. I started with similar amounts while getting my process down. I started adding more when I noticed that my favorite commercial versions would hit me with aroma while the beer was on the bar and I didn't get the aroma in mine until I went to drink.
I also like higher ABV - normally in the 6.5% to 8% range.
Let us know how it turn out.

 

[Nubiwan]

Looks fine to me. I started with similar amounts while getting my process down. I started adding more when I noticed that my favorite commercial versions would hit me with aroma while the beer was on the bar and I didn't get the aroma in mine until I went to drink.
I also like higher ABV - normally in the 6.5% to 8% range.
Let us know how it turn out.

@doogie Yeah - I thought it a little light on hops.

Is it going to hurt to increase my dry hop amounts?

Do you use any bittering hop at all? Just doesn't seem right not to......

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Some comments on my Grain / Hop Bill would be welcomed:

This is a pretty simple BIAB process - then to bottles.

6 Gallons to be packaged - estimated ABV 5.25% - TBD on efficiency and mash

Grains:
5 # Canadian 2-row
5 # Golden Promise
1 # Wheat
1 # Flaked Barley
1 # Flaked Oats
1/4 # Honey Malt

Yeast
US-05

Hops
Whirlpool around 160 let stand for 20-30 minutes - stir? (is stirring key)
1.5 oz Citra
.5 oz Galaxy
1 oz mosaic

Dry Hop
Plan to repeat Whirlpool Hop Amounts as Fermentations slows down - day 4-5 - and let stand for further 4-6 days, then Bottle. Minimize oxidation while bottling. Fill to near top. I do use a bottling bucket. Just easier. Got no wand.

Am I closer to a Pale Ale than an NEIPA with my smaller Hop Schedule? I see some massive amounts in other recipes. Will increasing the dry hop amounts see me over the "NEIPA" aroma/flavour top?

Comments invited / welcomed

I think the grain bill looks fine but I would increase at least the dry hops significantly if you want to try to be up in NEIPA-territory. I would at least double them as to be around 1 oz per gallon of dry hopping for a start.

Also, I am not sure that you are going to get true NEIPA-character using US05 as a yeast. I believe most of what sets a NEIPA apart from a more WC-type IPA is the yeast, not the grain bill.
I know from other people reports that you definitely can brew a super hazy NEIPA with just barley malt and without any flaked adjunct. But I am not sure the inverse is possible.
Why not use one of the more typical NEIPA yeasts, such as 1318?
Or if you prefer to go with dry yeast, then something like S04?

 

[doogie]

@doogie Yeah - I thought it a little light on hops.

Is it going to hurt to increase my dry hop amounts?

Do you use any bittering hop at all? Just doesn't seem right not to......

Completely up to you, but the more hops the more sensitive it will be to oxygenation. I use small amounts of bittering at 15 minutes or less. Also I missed that you were using SA05, as Taket_al_Tauro suggested, I prefer S04 for a dry NEIPA yeast too.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Completely up to you, but the more hops the more sensitive it will be to oxygenation.

This is true for sure... and if you are not confident enough about your cold-side process it might indeed be advisable to start lower.
That said, the NEIPA I was talking about earlier featured ca. 14 oz total, out of these ca. 8 oz of dry hops (quantities scaled to a standard 5 gal batch size). As said the beer is not showing signs of (at least apparent) oxidation even now 3 months post bottling. So I believe it is possible to get away with the insane hopping rates of NEIPAs while bottle conditioning.
I should add one more point that I used oat malt instead of flaked oats as an adjunct. If I remember correctly Janish wrote once that oat malt might be a bit less prone to oxidation than flaked oats. But take this with a grain of salt.

 

[kbaggen]

Hi there, to bottle NEIPAs you need to ensure no oxidation. hence:

1. Only primary fermenter, no secondary.
2. No additions later than 75% complete to ensure the yeast remove oxygen.
3. Use sugar cubes directly when bottling, no sugar dilutions.
4. Use a very small bottle-siphon-wand, ensure to foam/move/splash as littles as possible (I geuss we all see tihs one
5. Fill the bottle 100% up. e.g. 110%
6. Consider to make hop tea (boiling the water removes oxygen, and hence let it fall till 70´C before adding hops over 60min for hop aromas) and use this one to make the 110% bottle fill up.

2 pictures after 90 and 120 days of a light NEIPA -> Brewfather

 

[Nubiwan]

Hi there, to bottle NEIPAs you need to ensure no oxidation. hence:

1. Only primary fermenter, no secondary.
2. No additions later than 75% complete to ensure the yeast remove oxygen.
3. Use sugar cubes directly when bottling, no sugar dilutions.
4. Use a very small bottle-siphon-wand, ensure to foam/move/splash as littles as possible (I geuss we all see tihs one
5. Fill the bottle 100% up. e.g. 110%
6. Consider to make hop tea (boiling the water removes oxygen, and hence let it fall till 70´C before adding hops over 60min for hop aromas) and use this one to make the 110% bottle fill up.

2 pictures after 90 and 120 days of a light NEIPA -> Brewfather

@kbaggen - can you explain #6 "hop tea" - is this a hop tea to dry hop? A wet hop? Or for after the boil/whirlpooling? Sorry - first I've heard of hop tea.

If I boil water to remove O2, does it not regain O2 as it cools back down tp 70? I dunno.

#3 why no sugar dilutions? You mean as stirred in a bottling bucket? That is, unfortunately, my normal practice. Pretty sure I read someone still uses a bottling bucket with decent results. Does seem it would be added O2 risk.

 

[Nubiwan]

For this NEIPA batch, I started adding some ascorbic acid together with the dry hops (thanks again for the tip, @tyrub42 ;-)). I think it had a very noticeable effect, as well. Even the bottles where I did not purge the headspace did not turn darker (as it usually happened in previous trials without the ascorbic acid).

@Taket_al_Tauro - This is interesting to me. Exactly how much acid did you add for the 5-6 gallons with dry hops?

It is not lost on me that we often treat guacamole with citric acid to stave off the browning and keep it bright green.

I am wondering if citric acid might be an option in IPAs, and what effect, if any, on taste.

Same goes for your ascorbic acid? Assume no appreciable taste effect.

 

[Nubiwan]

Anyone using SMB in bottle bucket process, or in kegs for that matter? Found this interesting......

everyone's favourite page -= well, I like it, and this is interesting stuff.

https://brulosophy.com/2019/02/11/p...at-packaging-has-on-beer-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Pretty sure I read someone still uses a bottling bucket with decent results. Does seem it would be added O2 risk.

Yes, I'm still using a bottling bucket and I believe with decent results . As almost always in homebrewing, there are many ways to skin this cat, I think.
FWIW that beer I was talking about placed first in NEIPA category in a comp we have over here. And I know for a fact that in that comp also small commercial craft brewers are participating (mostly micro and nano scale)...but people who do have unitanks, kegs, ability to perform closed transfers, beer gun or counter-pressure bottle filling, and all that cool stuff. Granted, it may not be at the level of some comps you guys have over there in the US...and it is not my purpose to brag or anything, but just to make the point that it could not have been objectively a bad NEIPA.

@Taket_al_Tauro - This is interesting to me. Exactly how much acid did you add for the 5-6 gallons with dry hops?

I added 1 gram per gallon. I took the dosage suggested by @tyrub42 in his post in that other thread that was linked here. The dosage seems a bit high, maybe next time I will try to scale it down a bit (it is way more than the package recommended).
And no noticeable flavor contributions.
I would go with ascorbic acid rather than citric. It is certainly more flavor neutral and the antioxidant power is also higher, I believe...