NEIPA Bottle Oxidation and alternatives?

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Nubiwan

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Hmmm, hope my title is not misleading. I plan to make a NEIPA in time for Christmas. I am simply aiming for a hop forward ale to enjoy over the holidays. Had a few very decent commercial NEIPAs lately, so wanted to give it a go. I am preparing for some challenges, as I am limited to bottle conditioning with my setup.

Question 1: Does anyone care to recommend a good NEIPA recipe, that might withstand bottle conditioning? Or simply a recipe that has worked well in bottles?

Question 2: Am I better off avoiding the style altogether and perhaps aiming for a hop forward amber or West Coast styled IPA, and the apparent disappointment that oxidation (colour change at least) brings to the ale. With the latter, I might not be as disappointed with the loss of colour many people seem to experience.

Question 3. Am I going to have oxidation issues, whatever IPA style I attempt to bottle condition? That is, a loss of hop aroma over several weeks. I think I will.

Thanks ALL - Tis the Season - Almost!
 
Yes its true that oxidation is an issue especially with hoppy beers. If I were you I would bottle prime each bottle then bottle right from your fv.
 
Recipe-wise I would go with this one or Fort Point clone How To Pale Ale | Trillium - just look up Fort Point Clone. It's my house NEIPA.

As for bottling, I think its more important what happens before bottling - what do you have for a fermenter? Can you bottle straight from primary? Before bottling you want to make sure you introduce as little oxygen as you can while dry hopping.

You might want to use a kveik yeast to turn it around quickly, but bottle condition with some champagne yeast since kveik isn't super reliable conditioning.

Bottling is not the problem, the yeast will suck up the oxygen in the bottle, just be careful. Even Vinnie Cilurzo mentioned in a podcast that no need to flush bottles with C02 on hoppy beers if bottle conditioning.
 
Just started brewing again after about 20 years and this whole oxidation preoccupation is a new phenomenon.

I used to extract brew IPAs the old fashion way -> bucket fermenter, rack to carboy, dry hop with a bag, prime in a bottling bucket, bottle in used Sam Adams glass. Beer was perfect in 4-6 weeks of conditioning.

I've got a couple of batches in fermenters now so, I'll see if the oxygen has really changed that much. :)

Homebrewing and craft brewing have become very haughty in the time I've been gone. There are lots of new shiny toys and stainless bangles to buy these days. And a lot of opinions and theories about taste and quality to justify spending thousands of dollars on equipment.

IPAs have been around for over 200 years, and oxygen slightly longer than that. So I'm not sure that CO2 equipment is required for every step of the process like some will have you believe.

My advice: Brew what you want. Don't disturb the beer more than you have to. Fill your bottles to about an inch of the cap. Enjoy.

If you are paranoid about it, get some oxygen absorbing caps.

GL!
 
It is definitely possible to bottle condition NEIPA without the much dreaded browning and near total loss of hop aroma/flavor.

I bottled my first one on Aug 23rd and even now, almost 3 months post bottling, the beer is not showing signs of darkening. The hop flavor is still intense, although it surely lost a bit of brightness as compared to 2 months ago. But I would not be afraid to serve it to other people and still call it a NEIPA.

Prior to that, I used to bottle mostly IPAs/APAs of the "west coastish" type, so I gained some experience that was surely helpful in making this first bottle conditioned NEIPA work. I and other contributors detailed our experiences bottling hoppy beers in the thread that @BrewnWKopperKat linked above.


In summary, here the tricks that worked (or that I believe have worked) for my system:
- No cold crash, I am a believer in the power of active yeast to scavenge at least some O2 if conditions are right. Even not considering the recently-much-discussed potential problem of air suckback during cold crash, if yeast needs to reawaken first, O2 will have more time to damage your beer.
- To compensate for skipping the cold crash I leave all my beers, including hoppy ones, at least one month in primary. The NEIPA was no exception, it sat full 5 weeks in the fermenter.
- I add a tiny bit of sugar solution together with the dry hops (approx 1 oz for 6-7 gallons), for the same purpose of helping the yeast left in suspension wake up again. This is about 4-5 days prior to bottling. I have no idea if this helps (probably not?)...but it did not harm for sure.
- After filling the bottles, purge the headspace with CO2 or some other inert gas and then cap immediately, OR fill the bottles almost to the top leaving as little headspace as possible.
- For this NEIPA batch, I started adding some ascorbic acid together with the dry hops (thanks again for the tip, @tyrub42 ;-)). I think it had a very noticeable effect, as well. Even the bottles where I did not purge the headspace did not turn darker (as it usually happened in previous trials without the ascorbic acid).

Other than that, I do things that would be considered blasphemous in a NEIPA context, such as openly transferring to a bottling bucket, mixing in the priming solution and so on... Hell, I even literally strain the beer through a monofilament filter on the way to the bottling bucket to get rid of residual dry hop particles (although I take care as to minimize splashing in the bottling bucket, and I do not believe this straining step exposes the beer to much more O2 as compared to a normal transfer, because the filter is submerged in the beer most of the time).

Good luck and do not let you intimidate by opinions that say bottling NEIPA is impossible!
 
IPAs have been around for over 200 years, and oxygen slightly longer than that.
Yes, and much of what people ate and drank 200 years ago without giving it a second thought we would find questionable if not outright disgusting today. Don't even get me started on personal hygiene and living conditions...

So what's your point, if it was good enough for smelly, sickly, half-starved 19th Century men and women then it must be good enough for us?

Some of us have tried the difference and were amazed by it. Others are happy to keep on living in ignorance and sometimes even scorn those who don't do like them. Nothing new under the sun...
 
My point was that he should go ahead and try it.
You might have made your point just as well without trying to ridicule those who have gone to great lenghts to improve the quality of their homebrewed beer, including but not limited to oxygen mitigation, but that's just IMHO of course...

Your post makes my other point about the hobby getting haughty though, so thanks.

You're welcome.
 
Just started brewing again after about 20 years and this whole oxidation preoccupation is a new phenomenon.
I used to extract brew IPAs the old fashion way -> bucket fermenter, rack to carboy, dry hop with a bag, prime in a bottling bucket, bottle in used Sam Adams glass. Beer was perfect in 4-6 weeks of conditioning.

I've been brewing about the same but an IPA back then didn't include huge amounts of adjuncts and 8-10oz of hops in a 5 gallons batch. I'd be luckily if I put 2oz of hops and dry hopped with 1 or 2 oz's.

That's the reason people are obsessing about oxidation - these beers turn quickly. Go buy a NEIPA and pour into a glass take a picture and leave it out on the counter overnight - it will be brown and gross looking in the morning :)
 
Just started brewing again after about 20 years and this whole oxidation preoccupation is a new phenomenon.

Homebrewing and craft brewing have become very haughty in the time I've been gone. And a lot of opinions and theories about taste and quality to justify spending thousands of dollars on equipment.

Or in the last 20 years the hobby has developed and the techniques have caught up to commercial practices. While some items may not make a noticeable, or an economic, difference to some brewers the majority of the best practices are not "opinions and theories" but known science. Brewing is something that you can get several BS degrees in and the homebrewing community has started to use the same resources as professionals.

NEIPAs are VERY sensitive to oxidation, more than a East or West coast IPA.
 
Thanks all. I did read (some of) the massive 300 page IPA thread note above, and it is one of those recipes that I might try. The oxidation issue is not limited to this forum alone, as I am sure many of you know.

I have also made some rather simple IPAs in the past, though hardly any real hop heavy efforts, and I found the IPA twang (is that a proper braumeister phrase?) dissipated over the month or so the bottles actually lasted.

I am going to be super cautious with my bottle process, and hope the heavy hop bill see me through.

What about whirlpooling vs dry hopping, and or both? Any one care to suggest what process they use? Works best?
 
Recipe-wise I would go with this one or Fort Point clone How To Pale Ale | Trillium - just look up Fort Point Clone. It's my house NEIPA.

As for bottling, I think its more important what happens before bottling - what do you have for a fermenter? Can you bottle straight from primary? Before bottling you want to make sure you introduce as little oxygen as you can while dry hopping.

You might want to use a kveik yeast to turn it around quickly, but bottle condition with some champagne yeast since kveik isn't super reliable conditioning.

Bottling is not the problem, the yeast will suck up the oxygen in the bottle, just be careful. Even Vinnie Cilurzo mentioned in a podcast that no need to flush bottles with C02 on hoppy beers if bottle conditioning.
@shoreman - Care to link your recipe (s)? Did a search, and could not find it. Not sure I did the correct search parameters, but for what I did, explicitly entered "Four Point Clone" searched everywhere, it did not come up.
 
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It is definitely possible to bottle condition NEIPA without the much dreaded browning and near total loss of hop aroma/flavor.

I bottled my first one on Aug 23rd and even now, almost 3 months post bottling, the beer is not showing signs of darkening. The hop flavor is still intense, although it surely lost a bit of brightness as compared to 2 months ago. But I would not be afraid to serve it to other people and still call it a NEIPA.

Prior to that, I used to bottle mostly IPAs/APAs of the "west coastish" type, so I gained some experience that was surely helpful in making this first bottle conditioned NEIPA work. I and other contributors detailed our experiences bottling hoppy beers in the thread that @BrewnWKopperKat linked above.


In summary, here the tricks that worked (or that I believe have worked) for my system:
- No cold crash, I am a believer in the power of active yeast to scavenge at least some O2 if conditions are right. Even not considering the recently-much-discussed potential problem of air suckback during cold crash, if yeast needs to reawaken first, O2 will have more time to damage your beer.
- To compensate for skipping the cold crash I leave all my beers, including hoppy ones, at least one month in primary. The NEIPA was no exception, it sat full 5 weeks in the fermenter.
- I add a tiny bit of sugar solution together with the dry hops (approx 1 oz for 6-7 gallons), for the same purpose of helping the yeast left in suspension wake up again. This is about 4-5 days prior to bottling. I have no idea if this helps (probably not?)...but it did not harm for sure.
- After filling the bottles, purge the headspace with CO2 or some other inert gas and then cap immediately, OR fill the bottles almost to the top leaving as little headspace as possible.
- For this NEIPA batch, I started adding some ascorbic acid together with the dry hops (thanks again for the tip, @tyrub42 ;-)). I think it had a very noticeable effect, as well. Even the bottles where I did not purge the headspace did not turn darker (as it usually happened in previous trials without the ascorbic acid).

Other than that, I do things that would be considered blasphemous in a NEIPA context, such as openly transferring to a bottling bucket, mixing in the priming solution and so on... Hell, I even literally strain the beer through a monofilament filter on the way to the bottling bucket to get rid of residual dry hop particles (although I take care as to minimize splashing in the bottling bucket, and I do not believe this straining step exposes the beer to much more O2 as compared to a normal transfer, because the filter is submerged in the beer most of the time).

Good luck and do not let you intimidate by opinions that say bottling NEIPA is impossible!

So glad you have been having so much success! I do quite a few things differently, but the most important thing is that we're managing to bottle the NEIPAs we love and still have them tasting great months later. Cheers to you, sir 🍻🍻🍻
 
Thanks all. I did read (some of) the massive 300 page IPA thread note above, and it is one of those recipes that I might try. The oxidation issue is not limited to this forum alone, as I am sure many of you know.

I have also made some rather simple IPAs in the past, though hardly any real hop heavy efforts, and I found the IPA twang (is that a proper braumeister phrase?) dissipated over the month or so the bottles actually lasted.

I am going to be super cautious with my bottle process, and hope the heavy hop bill see me through.

What about whirlpooling vs dry hopping, and or both? Any one care to suggest what process they use? Works best?
Basic recipe I use is:
2-Row for most of the mash, normally a pound each of wheat and flaked oats, maybe a new ounces of honey malt
Minimal hops during the last 15 minutes of the boil, then 6 ounces in the whirlpool
After fermentation is complete, I ramp up the temp to 70 degrees F or so to clean up, then cold crash to drop the yeast out, then warm back up to 60 degrees F for dryhop (around 6 oz) for 3 or 4 days, then another cold crash to drop the hops, keg, carbonate and enjoy.

Once I started dryhopping after cold crashing my aroma improved dramatically.
 
Some comments on my Grain / Hop Bill would be welcomed:

This is a pretty simple BIAB process - then to bottles.

6 Gallons to be packaged - estimated ABV 5.25% - TBD on efficiency and mash

Grains:
5 # Canadian 2-row
5 # Golden Promise
1 # Wheat
1 # Flaked Barley
1 # Flaked Oats
1/4 # Honey Malt

Yeast
US-05

Hops
Whirlpool around 160 let stand for 20-30 minutes - stir? (is stirring key)
1.5 oz Citra
.5 oz Galaxy
1 oz mosaic

Dry Hop
Plan to repeat Whirlpool Hop Amounts as Fermentations slows down - day 4-5 - and let stand for further 4-6 days, then Bottle. Minimize oxidation while bottling. Fill to near top. I do use a bottling bucket. Just easier. Got no wand.

Am I closer to a Pale Ale than an NEIPA with my smaller Hop Schedule? I see some massive amounts in other recipes. Will increasing the dry hop amounts see me over the "NEIPA" aroma/flavour top?

Comments invited / welcomed
 
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Some comments on my Grain / Hop Bill would be welcomed:

This is a pretty simple BIAB process - then to bottles.

6 Gallons to be packaged - estimated ABV 5.25% - TBD on efficiency and mash

Grains:
5 # Canadian 2-row
5 # Golden Promise
1 # Wheat
1 # Flaked Barley
1 # Flaked Oats
1/4 # Honey Malt

Yeast
US-05

Hops
Whirlpool around 160 let stand for 20-30 minutes - stir? (is stirring key)
1.5 oz Citra
.5 oz Galaxy
1 oz mosaic

Dry Hop
Plan to repeat Whirlpool Hop Amounts as Fermentations slows down - day 4-5 - and let stand for further 4-6 days, then Bottle. Minimize oxidation while bottling. Fill to near top. I do use a bottling bucket. Just easier. Got no wand.

Am I closer to a Pale Ale than an NEIPA with my smaller Hop Schedule? I see some massive amounts in other recipes. Will increasing the dry hop amounts see me over the "NEIPA" aroma/flavour top?

Comments invited / welcomed
Looks fine to me. I started with similar amounts while getting my process down. I started adding more when I noticed that my favorite commercial versions would hit me with aroma while the beer was on the bar and I didn't get the aroma in mine until I went to drink.
I also like higher ABV - normally in the 6.5% to 8% range.
Let us know how it turn out.
 
Looks fine to me. I started with similar amounts while getting my process down. I started adding more when I noticed that my favorite commercial versions would hit me with aroma while the beer was on the bar and I didn't get the aroma in mine until I went to drink.
I also like higher ABV - normally in the 6.5% to 8% range.
Let us know how it turn out.
@doogie Yeah - I thought it a little light on hops.

Is it going to hurt to increase my dry hop amounts?

Do you use any bittering hop at all? Just doesn't seem right not to...... :)
 
Some comments on my Grain / Hop Bill would be welcomed:

This is a pretty simple BIAB process - then to bottles.

6 Gallons to be packaged - estimated ABV 5.25% - TBD on efficiency and mash

Grains:
5 # Canadian 2-row
5 # Golden Promise
1 # Wheat
1 # Flaked Barley
1 # Flaked Oats
1/4 # Honey Malt

Yeast
US-05

Hops
Whirlpool around 160 let stand for 20-30 minutes - stir? (is stirring key)
1.5 oz Citra
.5 oz Galaxy
1 oz mosaic

Dry Hop
Plan to repeat Whirlpool Hop Amounts as Fermentations slows down - day 4-5 - and let stand for further 4-6 days, then Bottle. Minimize oxidation while bottling. Fill to near top. I do use a bottling bucket. Just easier. Got no wand.

Am I closer to a Pale Ale than an NEIPA with my smaller Hop Schedule? I see some massive amounts in other recipes. Will increasing the dry hop amounts see me over the "NEIPA" aroma/flavour top?

Comments invited / welcomed

I think the grain bill looks fine but I would increase at least the dry hops significantly if you want to try to be up in NEIPA-territory. I would at least double them as to be around 1 oz per gallon of dry hopping for a start.

Also, I am not sure that you are going to get true NEIPA-character using US05 as a yeast. I believe most of what sets a NEIPA apart from a more WC-type IPA is the yeast, not the grain bill.
I know from other people reports that you definitely can brew a super hazy NEIPA with just barley malt and without any flaked adjunct. But I am not sure the inverse is possible.
Why not use one of the more typical NEIPA yeasts, such as 1318?
Or if you prefer to go with dry yeast, then something like S04?
 
@doogie Yeah - I thought it a little light on hops.

Is it going to hurt to increase my dry hop amounts?

Do you use any bittering hop at all? Just doesn't seem right not to...... :)
Completely up to you, but the more hops the more sensitive it will be to oxygenation. I use small amounts of bittering at 15 minutes or less. Also I missed that you were using SA05, as Taket_al_Tauro suggested, I prefer S04 for a dry NEIPA yeast too.
 
Completely up to you, but the more hops the more sensitive it will be to oxygenation.

This is true for sure... and if you are not confident enough about your cold-side process it might indeed be advisable to start lower.
That said, the NEIPA I was talking about earlier featured ca. 14 oz total, out of these ca. 8 oz of dry hops (quantities scaled to a standard 5 gal batch size). As said the beer is not showing signs of (at least apparent) oxidation even now 3 months post bottling. So I believe it is possible to get away with the insane hopping rates of NEIPAs while bottle conditioning.
I should add one more point that I used oat malt instead of flaked oats as an adjunct. If I remember correctly Janish wrote once that oat malt might be a bit less prone to oxidation than flaked oats. But take this with a grain of salt.
 
Hi there, to bottle NEIPAs you need to ensure no oxidation. hence:
  1. Only primary fermenter, no secondary.
  2. No additions later than 75% complete to ensure the yeast remove oxygen.
  3. Use sugar cubes directly when bottling, no sugar dilutions.
  4. Use a very small bottle-siphon-wand, ensure to foam/move/splash as littles as possible (I geuss we all see tihs one :)
  5. Fill the bottle 100% up. e.g. 110% :)
  6. Consider to make hop tea (boiling the water removes oxygen, and hence let it fall till 70´C before adding hops over 60min for hop aromas) and use this one to make the 110% bottle fill up.
2 pictures after 90 and 120 days of a light NEIPA -> Brewfather
 

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Hi there, to bottle NEIPAs you need to ensure no oxidation. hence:
  1. Only primary fermenter, no secondary.
  2. No additions later than 75% complete to ensure the yeast remove oxygen.
  3. Use sugar cubes directly when bottling, no sugar dilutions.
  4. Use a very small bottle-siphon-wand, ensure to foam/move/splash as littles as possible (I geuss we all see tihs one :)
  5. Fill the bottle 100% up. e.g. 110% :)
  6. Consider to make hop tea (boiling the water removes oxygen, and hence let it fall till 70´C before adding hops over 60min for hop aromas) and use this one to make the 110% bottle fill up.
2 pictures after 90 and 120 days of a light NEIPA -> Brewfather
@kbaggen - can you explain #6 "hop tea" - is this a hop tea to dry hop? A wet hop? Or for after the boil/whirlpooling? Sorry - first I've heard of hop tea.

If I boil water to remove O2, does it not regain O2 as it cools back down tp 70? I dunno.

#3 why no sugar dilutions? You mean as stirred in a bottling bucket? That is, unfortunately, my normal practice. Pretty sure I read someone still uses a bottling bucket with decent results. Does seem it would be added O2 risk.
 
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For this NEIPA batch, I started adding some ascorbic acid together with the dry hops (thanks again for the tip, @tyrub42 ;-)). I think it had a very noticeable effect, as well. Even the bottles where I did not purge the headspace did not turn darker (as it usually happened in previous trials without the ascorbic acid).

@Taket_al_Tauro - This is interesting to me. Exactly how much acid did you add for the 5-6 gallons with dry hops?

It is not lost on me that we often treat guacamole with citric acid to stave off the browning and keep it bright green.

I am wondering if citric acid might be an option in IPAs, and what effect, if any, on taste.

Same goes for your ascorbic acid? Assume no appreciable taste effect.
 
Pretty sure I read someone still uses a bottling bucket with decent results. Does seem it would be added O2 risk.

Yes, I'm still using a bottling bucket and I believe with decent results ;). As almost always in homebrewing, there are many ways to skin this cat, I think.
FWIW that beer I was talking about placed first in NEIPA category in a comp we have over here. And I know for a fact that in that comp also small commercial craft brewers are participating (mostly micro and nano scale)...but people who do have unitanks, kegs, ability to perform closed transfers, beer gun or counter-pressure bottle filling, and all that cool stuff. Granted, it may not be at the level of some comps you guys have over there in the US...and it is not my purpose to brag or anything, but just to make the point that it could not have been objectively a bad NEIPA.

@Taket_al_Tauro - This is interesting to me. Exactly how much acid did you add for the 5-6 gallons with dry hops?

I added 1 gram per gallon. I took the dosage suggested by @tyrub42 in his post in that other thread that was linked here. The dosage seems a bit high, maybe next time I will try to scale it down a bit (it is way more than the package recommended).
And no noticeable flavor contributions.
I would go with ascorbic acid rather than citric. It is certainly more flavor neutral and the antioxidant power is also higher, I believe...
 
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If I boil water to remove O2, does it not regain O2 as it cools back down tp 70? I dunno.
Yes it does and because of the temperature it does so quite quickly too. Plus warm extraction definitely does not give the same results as cold extraction.
 
Yes, I'm still using a bottling bucket and I believe with decent results ;). As almost always in homebrewing, there are many ways to skin this cat, I think.
FWIW that beer I was talking about placed first in NEIPA category in a comp we have over here. And I know for a fact that in that comp also small commercial craft brewers are participating (mostly micro and nano scale)...but people who do have unitanks, kegs, ability to perform closed transfers, beer gun or counter-pressure bottle filling, and all that cool stuff. Granted, it may not be at the level of some comps you guys have over there in the US...and it is not my purpose to brag or anything, but just to make the point that it could not have been objectively a bad NEIPA.



I added 1 gram per gallon. I took the dosage suggested by @tyrub42 in his post in that other thread that was linked here. The dosage seems a bit high, maybe next time I will try to scale it down a bit (it is way more than the package recommended).
And no noticeable flavor contributions.
I would go with ascorbic acid rather than citric. It is certainly more flavor neutral and the antioxidant power is also higher, I believe...

@Taket_al_Tauro - super thanks man! I am pinning my entire hopes on AA, as you have suggested. :)

Though I never read the entire post, I found it interesting that @tyrub42 introduced his AA during the bottling bucket and sugar (with some KMB- how much, I wonder?), while you chose to do it at dry hop time (minus KMB)? I wonder if it makes any difference.

You opted not to use KMB or SMB (assume Potassium Metabi is the first yes?). Might I ask why? I have read only small amounts would be OK. I wonder if @tyrub42 has done any batches minus KMB since.

Bit redundant now probably, but you guys also spoke of water chemistry, which I pay very little heed to. I live in Eastern Canada. My water is super low in any additives and minerals. Like almost zeros across the board. Am I therefore likely to have a high or low pH mash? Should I be adding to it to avoid pH issues - specific to IPAs? I don't bother with anything else I make, and I have been happy enough with my other beers.

I'm off to my LHBS to buy some AA and up my Dry Hop Anti :)

Very excited for my first NEIPA. Its in the bucket as we speak.
 
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Bit redundant now probably, but you guys also spoke of water chemistry, which I pay very little heed to. I live in Eastern Canada. My water is super low in any additives and minerals. Like almost zeros across the board. Am I therefore likely to have a high or low pH mash? Should I be adding to it to avoid pH issues - specific to IPAs? I don't bother with anything else I make, and I have been happy enough with my other beers.
As I understand it, your water is essentially RO / distilled water. This article Water Chemistry – How to Build Your Water – Bertus Brewery, which could be considered the "Cliff Notes" of A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer, is one good starting point.
 
Though I never read the entire post, I found it interesting that @tyrub42 introduced his AA during the bottling bucket and sugar (with some KMB- how much, I wonder?), while you chose to do it at dry hop time (minus KMB)? I wonder if it makes any difference.

You opted not to use KMB or SMB (assume Potassium Metabi is the first yes?). Might I ask why? I have read only small amounts would be OK. I wonder if @tyrub42 has done any batches minus KMB since.

My reasoning for introducing it already at dry hopping time is that it might help in scavenging that little bit of oxygen that gets inevitably in with the dry hops (either from the dry hops themselves and/or from opening the fermenter). But I have no idea if this has indeed any significant benefit over introducing it at bottling time. On the other hand I do not think it had an adverse effect, either (for example that the ascorbic acid would all be consumed and thus ineffective by the time you bottle a few days later). From the look of things it seems the ascorbic acid, and the timing of adding it, has been effective for me, but I will have to do a few more tests in the future of headspace purging vs no purging to confirm this.

As for the KMB. If I remember correctly @tyrub42 had it already, because he uses it also for his water treatment (chloramine removal). I do not need to do that to my water so I did not have the stuff around the house, and I figured I would try it first just with the ascorbic. If I can avoid adding one more chemical that might not be strictly necessary, why not? There are apparently some theories that say that ascorbic acid alone might become a super-oxidant under certain circumstances, and do more harm than good. By adding KMB or SMB you can apparently prevent that.


Bit redundant now probably, but you guys also spoke of water chemistry, which I pay very little heed to. I live in Eastern Canada. My water is super low in any additives and minerals. Like almost zeros across the board. Am I therefore likely to have a high or low pH mash? Should I be adding to it to avoid pH issues - specific to IPAs? I don't bother with anything else I make, and I have been happy enough with my other beers.

Yes water chemistry and, above all, alkalinity & pH control are important and I am convinced this has been the single most important factor that contributed to increased quality and consistency in my homebrew. However I have to deal with very alkaline water where I live. So to me it became clear almost from the very beginning that I needed to focus on this aspect.
It seems you are fortunate enough to have a very good starting water for brewing. Probably there is not much you need to do. However, and especially for styles like IPAs/NEIPAs it might still be worth to delve a bit deeper into the subject. From hints you get here and there from both the best commercial as well as homebrewers of these styles, pH control across the whole brewing process (mash, sparge, boil, fermenter) seems to be paramount to get the maximum out of these beers.

Good luck on your first NEIPA, let us know how it turns out!
 
@Taket_al_Tauro one last question.... or two, or more :)

Ferment temp? My ambient temp in basement is around 64 degrees - do you crash at all? I have a porch down there would take it to around 45 degrees if needed, but I am reading no crashes for NEIPAs.

Bottling / Carbonation temp? I generally warm up a basement bedroom to around 70-72 degrees. Open a bottle after week, to check, and Its usually easily drinkable by then. If i feel it is ready, should I refrigerate the lot? Doubt they will all fit in our spare fridge with my 2 ambers, and lagers. SWMBO would also shoot me. Could dump bottles out in the garage. 40 degrees out there or less.

What CO2 volume you aim for? Do you prime a little higher sugar since you fill bottles? Lower?

For my 6 gallon beers I rather just throw 3/4 cup of sugar in the bottle bucket after boiling and gently stir. I have yet to weigh sugar. Estimate for around 2.5 CO2 on the calculator and go from there. Never entirely sure the exact volume after trub anyway. Do you use regular table sugar?

Ok 10 questions :)

PS - just had a sample to do a gravity. Man that stuff tastes super tasty. I'd drink it as is carbonated. What a bite its got. Colour is pale yellow. Hardly any colour of note. Forgot to take SG reading. Never really my intent.
 
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@kbaggen - can you explain #6 "hop tea" - is this a hop tea to dry hop? A wet hop? Or for after the boil/whirlpooling? Sorry - first I've heard of hop tea.

If I boil water to remove O2, does it not regain O2 as it cools back down tp 70? I dunno.

#3 why no sugar dilutions? You mean as stirred in a bottling bucket? That is, unfortunately, my normal practice. Pretty sure I read someone still uses a bottling bucket with decent results. Does seem it would be added O2 risk.

what I do is boil the water, as it removes some oxegyn and sterilize. I let it fail till 70´C as this do not give bitterness then, and hence only exttract aroma. So you can say this hop tea used though the bottling is an advance dry hopping more than a common hop tea.

It is true the falling of temperature from boiling till 70´C will encrease the oxygen amount again, and I am not sure how fast this equalibum goes.....but I guess this is the best we can do so to speak.

I can only say that after I done this for the last 3x10L NEIPAs I ahve not had issues with any darkning/oxidazation at all.

Ok, 10L do not hold that long, but I got pictures at 90, 120, and soon to come of 150days (got one bottle left), of above brew.

Will take a picture of other/later brew there is at 60days now, wich is also very bright yellow still.

Did that answer you questions?
 
@Nubiwan @Taket_al_Tauro just to answer some of your questions I missed:

-correct, I have kmeta anyway for water treatment. Also, while it does make me feel safer to use a tiny bit, the whole superoxidizer thing seems to be theoretical and I couldn't find a single example of someone actually experiencing it from adding AA without Kmeta.

-If use a bottling bucket so it's definitely possible to do it. I also bottle condition and honestly I feel it does a lot to keep bottles fresh for months compared to force carbonating and then bottling. The caveat is that I do go through a lot of co2 in a bottling day. I purge the hell out of my bottling bucket (like 1+min of co2 free flowing into it before any beer or proming sugar enter), purge bottles and purge headspaces. I don't do liquid purging or closed transfers, though, as that isn't possible with my equipment. If you don't have co2, simply using the AA and filling bottles up so that they have almost no headspace (just enough for the liquid to expand if it heats up a bit so your bottle won't explode) seems to do a great job. I did this reluctantly when I ran out of co2 and the NEIPA held up really well luckily.

-I don't believe it would make a big difference to change the timing of the AA addition, as oxidation is typically happening at bottling time. However if you're worried about cold crashing sucking o2 into the beer, then maybe it would be better to add it beforehand. OTOH you have to open the fermenter to add it, which can also add o2. My guess is either way would work the same.

-I have never experimented with a lower dose. To be honest, I don't recall where I read to use 1g/gal haha. I would imagine that I read that number at least a few times before using it, but there is absolutely a good chance that the optimal dose could be higher or lower and would love to hear anything you find out.

-I like cold crashing NEIPAs and actually think it's pretty important since the heavy dry hop loads tend to leave more particulate floating around. That said, many prefer not to. I recommend trying it out and seeing what you prefer.

-i tend to carbonate NEIPAs on the lower end, around 2.1-2.3vol instead.of the standard 2.4-2.5 I like with my regular pales and ipas. Use brewersfriend calculator. If you cold crash, you need to factor that in. Overall I find that if I cold crash to 1-2 degrees c, adding .2 vol seems to be accurate. So 2.3 in the calculator gives me 2.5 vols. This is all just based on my feeling drinking them, so I could be off.

Sorry for the long-winded response!!!

Cheers 🍻
 
@Taket_al_Tauro one last question.... or two, or more :)

Ferment temp? My ambient temp in basement is around 64 degrees - do you crash at all? I have a porch down there would take it to around 45 degrees if needed, but I am reading no crashes for NEIPAs.

Bottling / Carbonation temp? I generally warm up a basement bedroom to around 70-72 degrees. Open a bottle after week, to check, and Its usually easily drinkable by then. If i feel it is ready, should I refrigerate the lot? Doubt they will all fit in our spare fridge with my 2 ambers, and lagers. SWMBO would also shoot me. Could dump bottles out in the garage. 40 degrees out there or less.

What CO2 volume you aim for? Do you prime a little higher sugar since you fill bottles? Lower?

For my 6 gallon beers I rather just throw 3/4 cup of sugar in the bottle bucket after boiling and gently stir. I have yet to weigh sugar. Estimate for around 2.5 CO2 on the calculator and go from there. Never entirely sure the exact volume after trub anyway. Do you use regular table sugar?

Ok 10 questions :)

PS - just had a sample to do a gravity. Man that stuff tastes super tasty. I'd drink it as is carbonated. What a bite its got. Colour is pale yellow. Hardly any colour of note. Forgot to take SG reading. Never really my intent.

Hey I'm no NEIPA expert :), I've just got one under my belt so-far. There are people on this forum that are way more knowledgeable than me when it comes to this style...(and other styles as well, for that matter ;-)). Still, let me try and answer your questions:

I think that ambient basement temp should work. Fermentation should not get too hot even without temp control. If you have the possibility to raise the temperature to above 70 for a few days when fermentation subsides, this won’t hurt… it has become my SOP for all my beers. Afterwards let the temp get back to your basement temp for the dry hopping. I usually wait a few weeks before dry hopping and then packaging, to give the yeast time to settle and so on...but I know most people go much faster for this style. I think it is up to you to find outr what works best for you. As I said earlier, I do not cold crash because I have a feeling that with my current rather low-tech approach to fermentation and packaging, a cold crash would do more harm than good (specifically, it would increase oxidation risk). To prevent hop matter from getting into my bottles, I run the beer through a monofilament filter that I place in my bottling bucket,

@tyrub42, as I understand from your posts, you do have a CO2 tank. You also mentioned that you cold crash. I would be interested to hear if you do anything to prevent air suckback during the cold crash? Do you hook up your CO2 tank to your fermenter to create some head pressure?

A bottle priming temp of 70-72 is fine. I would also test one bottle at about 1 week, and if carbonation is OK then I would refrigerate them all immediately if you have the possibility. Do not take risks with SWMBO, put those bottles in that garage at 40 F….unless it sees some large temperature swings between day and night, you’ve got a perfect place for cold storing your beers!

I usually condition in my apartment at about 73 F, and I found that it takes no more than one week to have fully carbonated bottles. Then they go either in the fridge or in the basement, depending on available space. This does not mean that they are already in their best shape for drinking after just one week. They will need at least another two weeks to hit their prime.

I aim for ca. 2.5 vols of CO2 for this style. I use regular table sugar.

Good luck!
 
@Taket_al_Tauro well, my post is specific to bottling NEIPA and, expert or not, your response seems my best bet. I thank you all for the assistance. Have plans to up my dry hop bill a bit, add some AA, fill them bottles to the brim. Will post some pix and perhaps do some 30-60 day comparison,for the record. For the record, my initial AA research revealed a teaspoon or 3.4 grams per 5 gallons ..... i will need to confirm further. Does that needto be diluted in anyway?

Since my timeline is christmas, im going to shorten my ferment period, which many report as favourable for the style anyway. Might do a pseudo crash of say 50 degrees for 24 hours. Thinking i might use a blow off contraption to mitigate o2 in the cold crash. Not sure that would work. Something i need to search up on. More questions-doh!
 
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@Taket_al_Tauro well, my post is specific to bottling NEIPA and, expert or not, your response seems my best bet. I thank you all for the assistance. Have plans to up my dry hop bill a bit, add some AA, fill them bottles to the brim. Will post some pix and perhaps do some 30-60 day comparison,for the record. For the record, my initial AA research revealed a teaspoon or 3.4 grams per 5 gallons ..... i will need to confirm further. Does that needto be diluted in anyway?

Since my timeline is christmas, im going to shorten my ferment period, which many report as favourable for the style anyway. Might do a pseudo crash of say 50 degrees for 24 hours. Thinking i might use a blow off contraption to mitigate o2 in the cold crash. Not sure that would work. Something i need to search up on. More questions-doh!

Sounds good man!
Just pay attention as not to fill the bottles to the very brim. You'll need to leave something like 0.5 cm of headspace (sorry I'm too lazy to look up the conversion in inches), because the volume of the liquid will expand a bit due to CO2 production. I know that from experience...luckily no bottle bombs but I had beer spill out from the bottle cap.

The AA dissolves easily in water. I would just dilute it in a bit of water and add that solution to the beer. If you add it at bottling you can dissolve it into your priming solution.
 
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