Need to go electric...

[Bobo1898]

I've heard they curb the steam but not the smell

I have had no issue with the smell, and I brew inside my condo unit. However, I brew next to a sink which conveniently allows my condenser hose to drop straight into the drain, as opposed to a bucket that collects the water.

 

[Broken Crow]

So @wepeeler ... It's fair for non-electricians to get confused by phase and such, and though helpful information, it's not something you need learn if you're having a certified electrician hook it up. When I mentioned 'future-proofing', I was thinking beyond just brewing. As far as brew gears go; Having 10/3 as opposed to 10/2 wire provides the ability to also include 110V for pumps or contactor-coils should you decide to incorporate them in a single control panel. Before we get another page full of responses that tell you you can just use the ground wire and one hot for 110V, I'll say that is cheating and I've never been comfortable with energizing a ground...not to mention it really makes it hard to incorporate a GFCI.
If you're going with a 30A system, the Romex I linked to would probably want this;
https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Q-Line-30-Amp-2-in-Double-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-THQL2130/100356511
or the GFCI version;
https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-30-A...with-Self-Test-THQL2130GFTP/206602329#overlay
On the garage end, the actual recptacle you put in the junction box is largely irrelevant and it could be somthing to directly plug in an AIO, a home-built panel with or without a 110V option, an Electric vehicle charger, plasma-cutter or TIG welder....choose the receptacle that best matches your immediate need, you can always swap it out later as long as you already have the line in place.
Have you made a desicion yet on AIO or modding your current gear?

 

[wepeeler]

So @wepeeler ... It's fair for non-electricians to get confused by phase and such, and though helpful information, it's not something you need learn if you're having a certified electrician hook it up. When I mentioned 'future-proofing', I was thinking beyond just brewing. As far as brew gears go; Having 10/3 as opposed to 10/2 wire provides the ability to also include 110V for pumps or contactor-coils should you decide to incorporate them in a single control panel. Before we get another page full of responses that tell you you can just use the ground wire and one hot for 110V, I'll say that is cheating and I've never been comfortable with energizing a ground...not to mention it really makes it hard to incorporate a GFCI.
If you're going with a 30A system, the Romex I linked to would probably want this;
https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Q-Line-30-Amp-2-in-Double-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-THQL2130/100356511
or the GFCI version;
https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-30-A...with-Self-Test-THQL2130GFTP/206602329#overlay
On the garage end, the actual recptacle you put in the junction box is largely irrelevant and it could be somthing to directly plug in an AIO, a home-built panel with or without a 110V option, an Electric vehicle charger, plasma-cutter or TIG welder....choose the receptacle that best matches your immediate need, you can always swap it out later as long as you already have the line in place.
Have you made a desicion yet on AIO or modding your current gear?

Thanks for the response. After a lot of research and thinking, I'm not going to wire anything to the garage. I'm going to use a 120v system, most likely the Grainfather. I've left the property manager 3 voice messages to ask if I could still use my propane burner outside, but haven't heard back yet. His response will be the deciding factor on getting an AIO. In a perfect world, I can continue brewing how I currently brew and not have to spend any more on gear, right now. Electric is very appealing, especially for step mashing (which I feel has improved my beer immensely, but that's a conversation for another day lol), as I can "auto" step mash without having to think too much. It's a PITA with propane.

We're not planning on spending a lot more time in our condo, so to rewire just for the sake of brewing doesn't make a ton of sense.

 

[whoaru99]

Specifically with regard to brewing (I think OP stated earlier in essence they wanted minimal input to the condo), a 240V only circuit could still provide 120V through a stepdown transformer. Depending on necessary current, that could be more cost effective than 3-wire cable.

 

[Broken Crow]

While I haven't used 120V systems myself, I've read numerous complaints about heat ramp times which may limit step-mashing ability and just be plain annoying depending on batch size, so read through some of those threads that make comparisons...(or just wait for this thread to fill up more with 120 vs. 240 responses )
Before you completely give up on installing a 240V outlet here's a thought; Reframe the narrative with your property manger:
Where I live there are some subsidies and programs for assisting to outright paying the costs to install electric-vehicle charging systems.... Maybe inquire as to wether you could get costs covered to do just that and use an adapter from a car-charger to whatever brew-rig you decide on.
Just a thought.

 

[wepeeler]

While I haven't used 120V systems myself, I've read numerous complaints about heat ramp times which may limit step-mashing ability and just be plain annoying depending on batch size, so read through some of those threads that make comparisons...(or just wait for this thread to fill up more with 120 vs. 240 responses )
Before you completely give up on installing a 240V outlet here's a thought; Reframe the narrative with your property manger:
Where I live there are some subsidies and programs for assisting to outright paying the costs to install electric-vehicle charging systems.... Maybe inquire as to wether you could get costs covered to do just that and use an adapter from a car-charger to whatever brew-rig you decide on.
Just a thought.

Unfortunately, there's no chance in Hell our condo association will assist us with a rewire. They make us pay for EVERYTHING regarding anything inside. I could ask though...Thanks!

I've done enough research and have a few guys in my club who use 120v AIOs. I can set mash temp on delay so I can set it up overnight and have it ready for me in the morning. Going from say 131 to 145 is typically 1 degree per min. Not super worried about mash to boil time as I always have plenty to do on brew day. BUT, I hear you on the concern!

 

[whoaru99]

Aren't there some AIOs that use two 120V connections for more heating power?

It would mean insuring the two connections were different circuits but not necessarily that each circuit has to be on a different leg.

 

[wepeeler]

Aren't there some AIOs that use two 120V connections for more heating power?

It would mean insuring the two connections were different circuits but not necessarily that each circuit has to be on a different leg.

I came across that last night in my "research". BrewHardware sells THIS

I would have to run an extension cord from inside the house though, as I don't have two outlets on 2 separate circuits in the garage. This wouldn't be an issue, would it?

 

[whoaru99]

No issue as long as the extension cord is of suitable gauge for the current and length. That's easy to ascertain if you know the approximate length the cord would be, and what the current load would be.

 

[IslandLizard]

I've done enough research and have a few guys in my club who use 120v AIOs. I can set mash temp on delay so I can set it up overnight and have it ready for me in the morning. Going from say 131 to 145 is typically 1 degree per min.

Although 120V is slower to heat than 240V kettles, it mostly counts when getting (cold) tap water to strike temps, and later the wort from mash temps to boil.

When using the delay timer to get to strike temps, the only time you need to wait around for 30-45 minutes is to get it to boil.
Good, efficient kettle insulation will help with that, or as you pointed to, using a 2nd heater element.

Quite a few of our club members now use AIO kettles on 120V and would never go back to their old systems.* Their beers are as good or better, and they're winning competitions as before.

Once you reach those target temps, 120V vs. 240V make no or little difference.

Are you going to be brewing indoors in your garage or in a door opening?

 

[mashdar]

I use a 120V system (brewzilla gen 4 35L), and the ramps for strike and boil are not ideal, but otherwise it's great. I plug it in different places depending on weather, kids, etc.

Step mash limiting factor is recirc rate unless you want to stir. E.g. you can't ramp from 146 to 158 in 5 minutes because you physically can't get liquid through the grain bed that fast without over heating the bottom of the mash. I don't put the heat on 100% even when stepping.

Will the extra 30-60 minutes of heating matter to you? If so, the extra heater may be worthwhile. I'm planning on buying a 240V system at some point, probably a more conventional 1V, but I'm still conflicted vs how easy the AIO is to haul around.

 

[Deadalus]

I came across that last night in my "research". BrewHardware sells THIS

I would have to run an extension cord from inside the house though, as I don't have two outlets on 2 separate circuits in the garage. This wouldn't be an issue, would it?

You could add another 120V branch circuit...

 

[wepeeler]

Although 120V is slower to heat than 240V kettles, it mostly counts when getting (cold) tap water to strike temps, and later the wort from mash temps to boil.

When using the delay timer to get to strike temps, the only time you need to wait around for 30-45 minutes is to get it to boil.
Good, efficient kettle insulation will help with that, or as you pointed to, using a 2nd heater element.

Quite a few of our club members now use AIO kettles on 120V and would never go back to their old systems.* Their beers are as good or better, and they're winning competitions as before.

Once you reach those target temps, 120V vs. 240V make no or little difference.

Are you going to be brewing indoors in your garage or in a door opening?

Thanks for the info. I'll be brewing in my garage 99% of the time.

No issue as long as the extension cord is of suitable gauge for the current and length. That's easy to ascertain if you know the approximate length the cord would be, and what the current load would be.

Sounds good. Probably no longer than 25ft. If I do that, I'll be sure to get a proper cable.

I use a 120V system (brewzilla gen 4 35L), and the ramps for strike and boil are not ideal, but otherwise it's great. I plug it in different places depending on weather, kids, etc.

Step mash limiting factor is recirc rate unless you want to stir. E.g. you can't ramp from 146 to 158 in 5 minutes because you physically can't get liquid through the grain bed that fast without over heating the bottom of the mash. I don't put the heat on 100% even when stepping.

Will the extra 30-60 minutes of heating matter to you? If so, the extra heater may be worthwhile. I'm planning on buying a 240V system at some point, probably a more conventional 1V, but I'm still conflicted vs how easy the AIO is to haul around.

I know I'll have to make a concession with ramp up times, but I really don't feel like it's too much of an issue. It's literally only the time from mashout to boil that would be considerably longer. I have plenty of other things I can be doing on brew day! Thanks for the info on step mashing and recirculating. I hadn't thought of that. I could do a combo of stirring and recirculating.

Totally a side question, but I've seen a few videos where brewers mention how clear the recirculated wort is on top of the grain bed. What is the advantage/purpose of this? Once you pull the bag, all the wort goes through the basket/bag anyway. I feel like I'm missing something...

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Sucked back in. There is nothing two phase about it. Zero, zilch, nada.

It is truly a single phase with a center tap, meaning the tap or lead is in the middle of the secondary of the transformer. If you add more taps, say one at 1/3, 2/3 position of the secondary would you have 3 phase? Absolutely not. It's a misunderstanding of electricity. It simple a way to produce 2 different voltages from the same secondary, not phases. The fact that there is an argument about it tells me there are a lot of people with just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

It's a little frustrating trying to explain something so basic to people who do not have a fundamental knowledge, let alone a comprehensive knowledge of the subject. I don't believe I would recommend this forum for any electric advise, because you have no idea if you talking to an engineer or an over confident hack.

Stick to beer.

Sorry, I likely pissed off a bunch of people.

 

[mashdar]

engineer or an over confident hack.

False dichotomy! : ) Resisting the urge to hijack this thread more. We can start a new one if you want lol

Totally a side question, but I've seen a few videos where brewers mention how clear the recirculated wort is on top of the grain bed. What is the advantage/purpose of this? Once you pull the bag, all the wort goes through the basket/bag anyway. I feel like I'm missing something...

In theory you recirculate until all the fine matter gets deposited up top, and then the wort drains clear (like a standard vorlauf).

In practice, you get a bit of grain gunk stuck to the false bottom, so you're not 100% free from grain bits in the boil.

But I do get the impression that the draining wort stays clear if I don't do anything too drastic. I guess you could pump to a second vessel and clean the aio out really quick, but I'm usually heating towards a boil before the sparge is even done.

 

[Bobby_M]

Totally a side question, but I've seen a few videos where brewers mention how clear the recirculated wort is on top of the grain bed. What is the advantage/purpose of this? Once you pull the bag, all the wort goes through the basket/bag anyway. I feel like I'm missing something...

If you're going to pull the bag and squeeze then WORT CLARITY is just not one of the applicable benefits of constant recirculation. It doesn't negate the temp stability you get or that you don't have to actively stir the grain when trying step ramp.

Note that if you're willing to run an extension cord to another 120v circuit somewhere, you can also consider a system with dual installed 120v elements. About 5% of the systems I sell are configured that way. I can build a Blichmann Brew Commander for example that switches two circuit independent 1650watt elements.

I know some people are completely happy with single element 120v AIO units but if you ever brew on something with a few more hundred (or thousand) watts than that, you'll write off 1500 watt breweries forever.

 

[wepeeler]

If you're going to pull the bag and squeeze then WORT CLARITY is just not one of the applicable benefits of constant recirculation. It doesn't negate the temp stability you get or that you don't have to actively stir the grain when trying step ramp.

Note that if you're willing to run an extension cord to another 120v circuit somewhere, you can also consider a system with dual installed 120v elements. About 5% of the systems I sell are configured that way. I can build a Blichmann Brew Commander for example that switches two circuit independent 1650watt elements.

I understand the advantage of recirculation for temp stability. That's a huge plus for me. It's a PITA on a propane burner, although I've learned my system, and it's not terribly difficult to do.

I guess I'm asking does wort clarity affect the final product? Because I BIAB now and squeeze, and my wort is anything but clear. My final product for beers that should be clear are definitely clear, with finings (in kettle and keg).

Good info on the dual elements.

 

[day_trippr]

The more I read of all the complicated systems with their endless frailties here on HBT it makes me happy about my simple system that just plain works. When I get mash recirculation going on my 3v2p fully manual propane rig I rarely have to touch a thing for an hour...

Cheers!

 

[whoaru99]

Sounds good. Probably no longer than 25ft. If I do that, I'll be sure to get a proper cable.

14ga cord would easily handle that stick thing you posted at that length.

 

[IslandLizard]

The more I read of all the complicated systems with their endless frailties here on HBT it makes me happy about my simple system that just plain works. When I get mash recirculation going on my 3v2p fully manual propane rig I rarely have to touch a thing for an hour...

Cheers!

That's a bit off topic isn't it?
Besides, I wouldn't consider your system "simple" by any definition.

 

[doug293cz]

I guess I'm asking does wort clarity affect the final product? Because I BIAB now and squeeze, and my wort is anything but clear. My final product for beers that should be clear are definitely clear, with finings (in kettle and keg).

I've never read anything that definitively proves that clear wort into the boil (or fermenter) is better than cloudy wort, or vice versa. There are however a lot of opinions that are based on personal preferences, or unsupported beliefs. Do what makes you feel comfortable.

Brew on

 

[IslandLizard]

Quite a few of our club members now use AIO kettles on 120V and would never go back to their old systems.*

I noticed the asterix I left in my previous post. So for completion:

* Except when brewing on location and at events such as Big Brew, there are usually only a limited number of 120V outlets available, and seldomly 240V ones. So brewers will bring their good old propane rigs for those very wonderful and enjoyable occasions.

 

[day_trippr]

Yeah, sorry about the sidetrack.
And what could be more simple than a 3v2p gasser with an Armstrong Control Unit?

Cheers! (Sorry for the interruption. Go about your bidness)

 

[Bobby_M]

The more I read of all the complicated systems with their endless frailties here on HBT it makes me happy about my simple system that just plain works. When I get mash recirculation going on my 3v2p fully manual propane rig I rarely have to touch a thing for an hour...

Cheers!

If you hung around for one of my brew days, the last thing you'd say about my eBIAB is that it was frail or complicated. It's a set and forget arrangement that holds temps with 1F and can also run through as complex a step mash you can dream up, all hands off.

 

[Bobby_M]

I guess I'm asking does wort clarity affect the final product? Because I BIAB now and squeeze, and my wort is anything but clear. My final product for beers that should be clear are definitely clear, with finings (in kettle and keg).

I don't think anyone has done any conclusive or convincing testing on this front. Brulosophy did several comparisons of inclusion/exclusion of kettle trub in the fermentation process and the only result was that the more kettle trub in the fermenter, the faster it fermented and cleared. Having more or less grain fine grain sediment in during the boil apparently hasn't been tested all that much or I haven't seen anything on it. It's one of the first experiments I plan to conduct on my 4-way small batch brewing system.

The way I have looked at this over the last few years is that some of the highest performing brewers I know have all this silt in their boil kettle. That's not proof that a clean wort boil doesn't matter. It just proves that if it does matter, it is probably not a huge impact. I think in terms of BJCP scoring. Some of the highest scores I've seen so far; 48/50 for my American Stout. Could that have been a 49 if I filtered out any silt pre-boil? I know, a stout probably covers up any affects. My friend Larry scored 47/50 on a Vienna Lager and also got an NHC silver (44/50) on a German Pils. These styles would be dragged around harshly by any off flavor producing process issues. Again, how much better could it have been with a clean boil?

 

[wepeeler]

I don't think anyone has done any conclusive or convincing testing on this front. Brulosophy did several comparisons of inclusion/exclusion of kettle trub in the fermentation process and the only result was that the more kettle trub in the fermenter, the faster it fermented and cleared. Having more or less grain fine grain sediment in during the boil apparently hasn't been tested all that much or I haven't seen anything on it. It's one of the first experiments I plan to conduct on my 4-way small batch brewing system.

The way I have looked at this over the last few years is that some of the highest performing brewers I know have all this silt in their boil kettle. That's not proof that a clean wort boil doesn't matter. It just proves that if it does matter, it is probably not a huge impact. I think in terms of BJCP scoring. Some of the highest scores I've seen so far; 48/50 for my American Stout. Could that have been a 49 if I filtered out any silt pre-boil? I know, a stout probably covers up any affects. My friend Larry scored 47/50 on a Vienna Lager and also got an NHC silver (44/50) on a German Pils. These styles would be dragged around harshly by any off flavor producing process issues. Again, how much better could it have been with a clean boil?

I was talking more in terms of clear wort during the mash vs the boil, but good info/food for thought nonetheless. I've seen many brewers talk about nice clear wort recirculating over the top of the grain bed during the mash. I currently BIAB, and I'm stirring a few times during the mash, then again when I pull the bag. At that point, the wort draining through the bag is definitely not clear. I want to know if there is an advantage to having the wort clear during mash recirculation. My guess would be that clear wort means you've flushed the grain of starch for maximum conversion?

 

[Bassman2003]

I hope you get an answer from your landlord to know your future! I think this thread has demonstrated that electrical is best left to purchasing ready made products or hiring somebody to wire it up. "homebrewing it up" with 240V is nothing to mess around with. Having said that, brewing on a 120V system might be a bit slower at times but the industry has moved to lower intensity boils anyway. So jet engine or power plant levels of thermal load are not the best and not needed.

Regarding clear wort, I would like to research Kunze or Narciss to see what they say about it as I know clear wort into the boil kettle is favored in the higher levels of the brewing world. Logically it makes sense to me to leave as much behind in the mash tun as one can. Nothing solid there helps down stream in the brewing process and might bring tannins etc... Experiments would be great but they would need to be focused on the right variables. Not a huge fan of Brulosophy as being a source of experimental data! This topic is more about chemistry than anything else imho. While you might get wort clarity going out of the boil kettle, it is more about the compounds that were transferred in and if they have a negative impact going through the boil process.

 

[doug293cz]

Regarding clear wort, I would like to research Kunze or Narciss to see what they say about it as I know clear wort into the boil kettle is favored in the higher levels of the brewing world. Logically it makes sense to me to leave as much behind in the mash tun as one can. Nothing solid there helps down stream in the brewing process and might bring tannins etc... Experiments would be great but they would need to be focused on the right variables. Not a huge fan of Brulosophy as being a source of experimental data! This topic is more about chemistry than anything else imho. While you might get wort clarity going out of the boil kettle, it is more about the compounds that were transferred in and if they have a negative impact going through the boil process.

There are many brewers who firmly believe boiling grain bits produces superior beer.

Spoiler

See decoction.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

I was talking more in terms of clear wort during the mash vs the boil, but good info/food for thought nonetheless. I've seen many brewers talk about nice clear wort recirculating over the top of the grain bed during the mash. I currently BIAB, and I'm stirring a few times during the mash, then again when I pull the bag. At that point, the wort draining through the bag is definitely not clear. I want to know if there is an advantage to having the wort clear during mash recirculation. My guess would be that clear wort means you've flushed the grain of starch for maximum conversion?

During the mash, most of the wort volume has grain bits suspended in it. And any clear wort returned to the top of the mash quickly makes its way back into the bulk of the grain. The clearness is transitory.

Brew on

 

[day_trippr]

I do my first mash pH check 20 minutes after strike and roughly 15 minutes of recirculation, and on Tuesday's brew noticed the sample had already gone nearly bright and tasted very sweet. Next time I might try a starch test (something I've never done in almost 20 years of brewing ) at that point with some solids included and see how close to complete it actually is at that time. I'm assuming it isn't all that close yet...

Cheers!