Need Large Starter- Two Packets Necessary?

[quirky0907]

So I need help deciding on how much yeast I need for my next batch of beer. I am thinking either an imperial porter or double bock, both of which have high starting gravity and ABV. A yeast starter calculator (off mrmalty) said no less than two packets of yeast to make a starter of 10 liters (for the double bock)! That is a pretty big starter and I would need to spend another 8 bucks for a second packet of yeast. I would like to know if I can get away with just one packet of liquid yeast? Does 10 liters of starter sound about right for a beer with a starting gravity of 1.079 (the porter) or 1.088 (the double bock)?

Thanks

 

[Wolfhound180]

Well it does for the double bock because lagers require more yeast. The porter won't need one that big.

 

[Bewbzout]

You could use one pack as your starter then step up if you wanted.

 

[quirky0907]

According to the yeast calculator, I would need six times the packet for the double bock (600 billion cells). Would it be hard to step up to enough yeast cells with only one packet?

 

[quirky0907]

I'm trying to even think what I could store 10 litters of yeast in. The porter is starting to look like a better option.

 

[Brew_4iT]

Well it does for the double bock because lagers require more yeast. The porter won't need one that big.

+1 What he said

Though for the price you would be spending on DME for your starters minus well just get a yeast strain that can handle higher gravity styles. What yeast did you pick up?

 

[harrydrez]

+1 What he said

Though for the price you would be spending on DME for your starters minus well just get a yeast strain that can handle higher gravity styles. What yeast did you pick up?

Could also ferment a smaller beer and use the yeast cake, couldn't you?

 

[osagedr]

If you are going to do the doppelbock and ferment it in the correct temperature range (50 degrees or less), I would strongly suggest dry yeast. I am going to do a doppelbock soon, and will probably be repitching slurry, but if I don't then I will use two packages of Saflager W-34/70 dry yeast rehydrated.

Beats the heck out of trying to make a 10 litre starter, not to mention you can get your yeast ready to pitch in half an hour as opposed to planning your starter a week ahead of time. For new lager brewers it's the way to go--you KNOW you are getting enough yeast pitched if you follow this method.

 

[quirky0907]

I've never thought about pitching dry yeast. Wouldn't I still be running into the same problem though; too little yeast to start off with? Two packets of dry yeast has the same number of yeast as two packets of liquid yeast right? The only difference I see is one is cheaper, and perhaps not as good quality.

I think I am going to brew the imperial porter instead of the dopplebock. I would rather wait till I have a good yeast slurry to repitch. I'll still need to step up the yeast starter for the imperial porter but nothing compared to the dopplebock.

 

[osagedr]

I've never thought about pitching dry yeast. Wouldn't I still be running into the same problem though; too little yeast to start off with? Two packets of dry yeast has the same number of yeast as two packets of liquid yeast right? The only difference I see is one is cheaper, and perhaps not as good quality.

I think I am going to brew the imperial porter instead of the dopplebock. I would rather wait till I have a good yeast slurry to repitch. I'll still need to step up the yeast starter for the imperial porter but nothing compared to the dopplebock.

No, two packets of dry yeast and two packets of liquid yeast do not have the same number of yeast cells. Two packets of dry yeast have about 23 grams of yeast x 20 billion cells/gram (according to Mr. Malty) = 460 billion cells. Wyeast claims 100 billion cells per package, but the viability can decline steeply with age; so best case scenario of two packages of liquid yeast would be less than half the number of cells from dry. And it could be a LOT less!

Your impression of dry yeast being "perhaps not as good quality" is completely incorrect. It is not only more reliable and less trouble, it is completely equivalent in quality (whatever you mean by "quality"). It does not offer as much variety, but with several good strains readily available, most new lager brewers have about 1,000 other things to perfect before they need to worry about using anything other than W-34/70, S-189 or S-23, IMO. When I was new to brewing I also had the misguided impression that liquid was somehow superior--now I believe the only advantange it offers is variety, which is only really a concern to very advanced homebrewers.

 

[quirky0907]

+1 What he said

Though for the price you would be spending on DME for your starters minus well just get a yeast strain that can handle higher gravity styles. What yeast did you pick up?

Wouldn't I still need a large batch of yeast starter regardless of the strain and its tolerance to high alcohol? I've been told before that its possible to have too many fermentables and I am guessing too much for the yeast to properly multiply and take off fast enough if the starter is too small. My understanding of this could easily be wrong.

 

[quirky0907]

Good information Osagedr, thanks for the reply. I was not aware dry yeast packets had more cells in them.

Yes I suppose I do have a negative impression of dry yeast.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

I suspect there are fewer dry yeast strains because the drying process is stressful and not all yeast can survive the process. But that's just me making things up again...

 

[osagedr]

Good information Osagedr, thanks for the reply. I was not aware dry yeast packets had more cells in them.

Yes I suppose I do have a negative impression of dry yeast.

You are welcome; always happy to help. I hope your negative impression of dry yeast changes--I have used both liquid and dry many times and pretty much have settled on liquid for ales, dry for lagers, although under specfic circumstances I use liquid for lagers and dry for ales. I consider the quality to be equal; one has more variety and one has greater ease of use.

Good luck!