Need Help with Bru'n Calcs for a NEIPA

[DJTroz]

I’ve finally decided to start treating my water for a NEIPA I’m brewing tomorrow. I’ve spent nearly the entire day studying the Bru’n Water Calc, toying with the cells, reading all of the tips, etc. Being I cannot see how the values are being calculated or get a reference for the inputs/outputs, I’m at a loss and hoping someone could help.

My recipe is a 7.5gal batch with about 19.8# of base malts between 1-2.9 in color and 8oz of honey malt (crystal) @ 25.

My water profile (tap from county water) is: Ca: 75.8, Mg: 6.2, Na: 22.6, HCO3: 228.9 (based on Total Alkalinity of 189), CO3: 0.8, SO4: 52.0, Cl: 23.2, PH: 7.9.

My goal is to reduce the mash PH to 5.2-5.4 and have SO4 ~100 and Cl ~150 (1:1.5). According to some, it’s even said that the ratio should be more around 1:3 (65:200), but playing it safe to start.

If I have entered everything in the program correctly, I will need to add (rows 19&20 in Water Adjustment, v1.18)

• 8.7mls of Lactic Acid (88%), 2.4g of SO4 (0.33g/gal), and 5.4g of Cl2 (0.75g/gal) to my 7.25gals of strike water.
• 5.9mls of Lactic Acid (88%), 1.7g of SO4, and 3.8g of Cl2 to my 5gals of sparge water.

These additions should yield a profile of SO4: 101/Cl2: 150, and (mash) PH of 5.26 (rows 13&16 in Water Adjustment, v1.18).

To find how much Lactic Acid needed to lower the PH, I entered the current PH and target PH (in the Sparge Acidification tab), which returned 1.2ml/gal, then carried that in B29 of the Water Adjustment tab.

If I entered all of the calculations correctly, the only items of concern are the calcium (168) and bicarbonate (9). Is a calcium level this high and bicarbonate level this low OK? The notes indicate calcium should be over 40 (others have said over 100) and Bicarbonate to be adjusted based on desired PH – but that doesn’t help me.

I toyed with lowering the SO4 and tried Epson Salts instead (to lower the calcium), but worried about having to sit on the throne all day due to high Magnesium and possibly astringency. I also considered Citric Acid instead of Lactic Acid but worried that too much sourness may come through in the end.

I guess my questions are; based on what I've noted, does everything sound like I entered it correctly and if so, are the calcium and bicarbonate levels of any concern for off-flavors? I also don’t know what the final PH should be as some have reported 4.2-4.4 while others have reported 5.1-5.3. I’ll be testing the PH throughout the processes for future reference but trying to mitigate errors on a relatively expensive batch.

I could attach my version of the spreadsheet if needed.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

With 14.6 mL of total 88% Lactic Acid additions you will quite likely taste the lactic acid as an off flavor. The problem is that your water has very high alkalinity.

Your basic set of choices (among others) are to:
1) Boil your water ahead of time to reduce its alkalinity, then add minerals and acid.
2) Cut your water appreciably with distilled or RO and then add minerals and acid.
3) Use RO or distilled and forego using your water altogether. Plus add minerals and acid.
4) Use Phosphoric Acid instead of Lactic Acid. Plus add minerals.

 

[mabrungard]

To find how much Lactic Acid needed to lower the PH, I entered the current PH and target PH (in the Sparge Acidification tab), which returned 1.2ml/gal, then carried that in B29 of the Water Adjustment tab.

I'm curious, why are you using the result for your sparging water as the basis for your mashing water? There is no correlation. Did you find a correlation or instruction in the program that led you to this move?

Your tap water's alkalinity is somewhat high and it will demand a significant degree of neutralization. I'm not sure if the proposed lactic acid additions will be over the taste threshold, but its getting close. Since this is a NEIPA, using acids such as citric AND lactic might actually be used to enhance the 'fruitiness' of the overall beer.

Given the water's ionic content, the pre-boiling treatment should be effective in reducing calcium and alkalinity. That would reduce the acid need appreciably.

 

[DJTroz]

With 14.6 mL of total 88% Lactic Acid additions you will quite likely taste the lactic acid as an off flavor. The problem is that your water has very high alkalinity.

Your basic set of choices (among others) are to:
1) Boil your water ahead of time to reduce its alkalinity, then add minerals and acid.
2) Cut your water appreciably with distilled or RO and then add minerals and acid.
3) Use RO or distilled and forego using your water altogether. Plus add minerals and acid.
4) Use Phosphoric Acid instead of Lactic Acid. Plus add minerals.

My preference is the use Phosphoric Acid, the problem is with Amazon, I can't get the high-concentration type for 2 days minimum (no same-day options available) and my HBS only carries the 10%-concentration type. Considering I would need about 5oz total, it isn't cost effective to go that route. I didn't think about boiling. Is there a way I can estimate how much I can reduce the alkalinity by boiling? I'm thinking order the higher concentration Phos from Amazon and brew on Thurs to eliminate any twang from the Lactic Acid or pick up a few gallons of distilled water.

 

[DJTroz]

I'm curious, why are you using the result for your sparging water as the basis for your mashing water? There is no correlation. Did you find a correlation or instruction in the program that led you to this move?

It may be how I worded that sentence, so I may need to clarify. I first opened your program over a year ago and was blown away by the options. I'm an analyst by profession and work with advanced scripting in reports all day. Even with that, the program looked to overwhelming. Since I've taken this week off work and wanting to improve the last NEIPA I did, I decided to bear-down and learn the program. I think I have a good understanding of it now, and maybe didn't bring over an entry correctly.

I know I will need to acidify at least the strike water for the mash. I was thinking since an NEIPA profile should have a silky profile, that the sparge water should also be treated.

In the Sparge Acidification tab, the first cell brought over my alkalinity from the prior tab, I entered my starting PH and target PH, chose my acid type/strength and the software returned a value of Lactic Acid required (1ml/gal).

Moving to the Water Adjustment tab, I toyed with the input for the minerals, chose my mash acid (also Lactic Acid) and strength, and the software returned the values.

The final values I mentioned were noted from the Adjustment Summary tab, which has the amounts for both Mashing and Sparging:

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

By boiling you can expect to reduce bicarb only to about 70-80 ppm in the real world. Call it 75 ppm

Complements of experts such as Martin and A.J.:

Ending Ca (ppm) = Starting Ca (ppm) - ((starting HCO3 (ppm) - ending HCO3 (ppm))/3.05)

Ending Ca (ppm) = 75.8 -((228.9 - 75)/3.05)

Post Boil:
-----------------
Ending ppm Ca ~= 25
Ending HCO3 ~= 75
Ending alkalinity ~= 62

 

[DJTroz]

By boiling you can expect to reduce bicarb only to about 70-80 ppm in the real world. Call it 75 ppm

Complements of experts such as Martin and A.J.:

Ending Ca (ppm) = Starting Ca (ppm) - ((starting HCO3 (ppm) - ending HCO3 (ppm))/3.05)

Ending Ca (ppm) = 75.8 -((228.9 - 75)/3.05)

Post Boil:
-----------------
Ending ppm Ca ~= 25
Ending HCO3 ~= 75
Ending alkalinity ~= 62

Thank you, this helps a lot and I have you and Martin responding in the same thread - even better! Just need AJ now.

I'm a little confused though. How do Bicarbonate and calcium correlate? You mention that I can reduce bicarb to only about 70-80 ppm but you used my calcium value (75.8) in the formula, not the bicarb value (231). Why is that? Sorry to sound like an idiot but chemistry was not a strong point in high school and didn't need it in college. I'm trying to wrap my head around how each items affects the other.

 

[DJTroz]

Nevermind - I just realized I missed part of the inputs in the formula. The only static value was the 3.05, and essentially the ending HCO3.

My final questions then would be - how long should I boil and does the volume have any impact on the time? I know for smaller batches, you have more boil-off but my batches are always 6-10 gallons. In this case, if I boil all 13 gallons of water (mash and sparge combined) for 60 minutes, would that yield the new results in the formula or should the time be increased/decreased?

 

[mabrungard]

Duration of boiling for decarbonation is debatable. While CO2 should be driven from the boiling water quickly, it does take a little bit longer. I've seen references from over 100 years ago that cite a 15 minute boil to assure decarbonation. It can probably be done with a little less time, but that is a safe bet. The volume of water shouldn't matter as long as your boil is rolling so that the CO2 is evolved into the atmosphere.

After the proper boil duration, end heating and cover the vessel. Allow the water to clear and immediately decant the clear water off the sediment. Don't wait too long to decant after the water is clear, since CO2 will reabsorb into the water and redissolve the chalk off the bottom of the vessel.

 

[ajdelange]

A votre service! You have 75.8/20 = 3.79 mEq/L calcium hardness and 189/50 = 3.78 mEq/L alkalinity. The rule of thumb for decarbonation by boiling or lime treatment is that the smaller of the two will be reduced to approximately 1 mEq//L. This means 2.78 mEq/L alkalinity will go taking 2.78 mEq/L calcium with it leaving 1.01 mEq/L calcium hardness (20 mg/L). The alkalinity of 1 mEq/L corresponds to approximately 61 mg/L bicarbonate if you care.

If you feel that you want more calcium than 20 mg/L add the supplemental calcium salts before boiling. This will get a little more alkalinity out.

As for the boil itself: it is using steam to sparge the CO2. In a 200 bbl vessel it might take 15 min to get it out bit in the few gallons most home brewers treat it will be much quicker than this. You don't actually even have to boil a small volume in many cases. Precipitation starts before the boil is reached. The water turns milky. If you have another way to sparge CO2 you are fine. Some spray the water through a nozzle and back into the tank. This involves a more elaborate setup so simply letting it boil for a few minutes is doubtless the way to go.

You don't really need to concern yourself about speed in decanting the water as the 1 mEq/L each calcium and alkalinity is the equilibrium condition for water exposed to atmospheric CO2 over chalk and is reached pretty quickly in a small volume so that by the time the precipitate has settled and the water is cool enough to handle you are probably so close to equilibrium that there is no need to rush things.

 

[DJTroz]

Thank you all for the help! To make sure I have this correct; take my total water needed for the entire batch, say <20 gallons,

• Bring to a hard boil, boil for 10 minutes (stay on the safe side)
• Kill the heat and cover.
  
• Wait until the water has cleared and siphon off (cleared) water leaving behind the sediment.

Do I have this correct? If so, I can then plug the new values into Bru'n and re-adjust my acids/minerals based on the new results.

 

[ajdelange]

The one thing not on your list is the addition of any calcium salts you intend to add make up for the calcium you lost or to carry sulfate or chloride should be added before the boil.

Also, as it is never possible to exactly predict what happens where precipitation is involved (the rule of thumb is just that - a rule of thumb) it is important to check alkalinity and hardness after treatment. There are inexpensive and readily available test kits for doing this.

 

[DJTroz]

AJ - that stumps me. Post-boil (for the water, not post-mash/wort boil), I believe the calcium came back at about 25 PPM. I'm guessing that would be in the decanted water and not including the sediment. If so, I have the desired calcium @ 100, the 25 would carry from the boiled water, I'm adding about 4.1g SO4 and 9.2g of Cl, which would add about 91.9 PPM calcium for a total of ~117 PPM. Are you saying they should be added before I boil to also remove them? Could they instead be added post-boil to provide a final Calcium value of 117?

For the estimates, I'm completely fine with that. I'm not aiming for perfection. Anything that can help what I haven't been doing is better and the input you guys provided was extremely helpful. I'll be checking Amazon shortly for the test kits.

 

[ajdelange]

Post-boil (for the water, not post-mash/wort boil), I believe the calcium came back at about 25 PPM. I'm guessing that would be in the decanted water and not including the sediment.

Right. The post boil hardness should be about 1 mEq/L which is 20 ppm calcium.

If so, I have the desired calcium @ 100, the 25 would carry from the boiled water, I'm adding about 4.1g SO4 and 9.2g of Cl, which would add about 91.9 PPM calcium for a total of ~117 PPM. Are you saying they should be added before I boil to also remove them?

Yes, they should be added before boiling. The reason in that precipitation occurs when [Ca++]*[CO3--] > Ksp (a constant). If you increase [Ca++] clearly [CO3--] will have to go down to keep the product < Ksp. You will remove more carbonate and that's what you are trying to do. Practically speaking the amount of extra carbonate removed is not going to be that much. Perhaps to 0.4 or 0.35 mEq/L so that all the calcium you added will not be removed but only 0.1 - 0.15 mEq/L (2 - 3 ppm). This is why it is important to do the post treatment tests - you never know exactly what is going to happen with precipitation.

Could they instead be added post-boil to provide a final Calcium value of 117?

Indeed they could but they then would not give you that little bit of extra decarbonation.

 

[DJTroz]

Makes sense. Last question (hopefully). I always use Campden for both mash and sparge water due to the high chlorine/chloramine in our municipal water. I would think that would also add some calcium, wouldn't it? If so, should that also be added to the boil and should the increase in calcium be accounted for somewhere in the Bru'n tool?

 

[ajdelange]

If your utility uses chlorine the boiling will remove it. If there is chloramine it will not be rmoved by boiling unless you boil for hours instead of minutes. To determine whether there is chloramine present call the utility or do the test described at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/campden-tablets-sulfites-and-brewing-water.361073/.

Campden tablets add sodium or potassium and not much of either. The post at the link tells how much of which. As no calcium is added you can add the tablets when the water is cold.