Need cheap ideas for O2 free transfer

[Morrey]

I see the point that schemantix is making about home brewers being aware of (or not being aware of) and choosing (or not) to take measures to control or reduce oxidation. I used the term "collectively home brewers are aware" very loosely, and I suppose the circle I exchange with regularly is possibly more the exception than the rule based on his observation.

Mongoose33 is likely to be the most meticulous and process oriented home brewer I know. He is as keenly aware of oxidation as any pro brewer I know. His BtB experiments reflect his training and professorial experiences, so I refer to his results as more than hit or miss. My evaluations are pretty much isolated to my tastes alone, but vibrancy is pretty easy to detect along the way. I am just not as scientific in my approach as Mongoose33.

Some time back, one of my other home brew buddies turned pro sampled a few of my beers and he asked my transfer to keg technique. Without giving me time to answer, he said that I am introducing O2 into my beer. I was, he knew it, and I have been working to eliminate O2 since then.

Another friend who has opened a small nano operation had a canning company come in to package some of his product for retail sales. He told me the canning company used a DO meter to check for O2 before they started. He explained the canning company knew the beer would be crappy if the DO level was too high, thusly they wouldn't accept responsibility for poor quality. Garbage in - garbage out.

And as said before, it seems my semi-small circle of brewing friends "collectively" are keenly aware of the damage O2 exposure causes in the long run. So maybe the home brew community that I am not aware of is not as up to speed on oxidation as I thought. As we spread the word and share what we learn from each new process, we all learn and benefit from the experience.

 

[schematix]

And as said before, it seems my semi-small circle of brewing friends "collectively" are keenly aware of the damage O2 exposure causes in the long run. So maybe the home brew community that I am not aware of is not as up to speed on oxidation as I thought. As we spread the word and share what we learn from each new process, we all learn and benefit from the experience.

I think right now the reason that meticulous oxygen exclusion is still somewhat of a niche in home brewing circles is that some rather trusted sources (BYO, Bruslophy, Denny and other misc bloggers) have almost universally panned the topic. It's obvious that nearly everyone took exception to the tone of the GBF PDF and already had their minds made up about the results. They also didn't understand it well enough to execute it right. To be fair, it's not easy and very hard to do right the first time.

But i think in 5 years time once enough of us minions keep sharing that there is in fact something quite brilliant to meticulous oxygen exclusion, you'll start to see those sources change their tune and start writing more and more about the merits of it. In fact you're already seeing that. Once that happens, and the home brewing equipment market starts producing products to that end, you'll see more people latch on.

 

[h22lude]

Another friend who has opened a small nano operation had a canning company come in to package some of his product for retail sales. He told me the canning company used a DO meter to check for O2 before they started. He explained the canning company knew the beer would be crappy if the DO level was too high, thusly they wouldn't accept responsibility for poor quality. Garbage in - garbage out.

That's pretty smart. If your friend wasn't keen on reducing O2 during his brew days, he could have easily blamed it on the canner. Also good the canner is aware of O2 as I assume they tried to reduce O2 intake as much as possible when canning.

I think right now the reason that meticulous oxygen exclusion is still somewhat of a niche in home brewing circles is that some rather trusted sources (BYO, Bruslophy, Denny and other misc bloggers) have almost universally panned the topic. It's obvious that nearly everyone took exception to the tone of the GBF PDF and already had their minds made up about the results. They also didn't understand it well enough to execute it right. To be fair, it's not easy and very hard to do right the first time.

But i think in 5 years time once enough of us minions keep sharing that there is in fact something quite brilliant to meticulous oxygen exclusion, you'll start to see those sources change their tune and start writing more and more about the merits of it. In fact you're already seeing that. Once that happens, and the home brewing equipment market starts producing products to that end, you'll see more people latch on.

This hits it on the head. While I like some of the stuff these sources do, I think some people take them as gospel.

 

[Morrey]

That's pretty smart. If your friend wasn't keen on reducing O2 during his brew days, he could have easily blamed it on the canner. Also good the canner is aware of O2 as I assume they tried to reduce O2 intake as much as possible when canning.

Exactly, the canning company also read the DO during the canning process to monitor if THEY created oxygen exposure. Bryan said the entire process was very interesting and transparent. Seems mobile canning companies like this are very much in demand.

 

[schematix]

This hits it on the head. While I like some of the stuff these sources do, I think some people take them as gospel.

It's made me reconsider everything they publish. With BYO, between the lodo article last year and their mash pH article from an issue or two ago, i just went ahead and let my subscription lapse. Can't trust it anymore. Fake brewing.

 

[mongoose33]

It's made me reconsider everything they publish. With BYO, between the lodo article last year and their mash pH article from an issue or two ago, i just went ahead and let my subscription lapse. Can't trust it anymore. Fake brewing.

What about those articles was concerning to you?

 

[h22lude]

Exactly, the canning company also read the DO during the canning process to monitor if THEY created oxygen exposure. Bryan said the entire process was very interesting and transparent. Seems mobile canning companies like this are very much in demand.

That is a great service. Too many companies just want money. It is nice to see a company that is in business to help the customer. When that happens, the money follows and the business lasts longer.

 

[h22lude]

It's made me reconsider everything they publish. With BYO, between the lodo article last year and their mash pH article from an issue or two ago, i just went ahead and let my subscription lapse. Can't trust it anymore. Fake brewing.

I have seen BYO talk about 5.2 Stabilizer a few times. After that, I took all their articles with a grain of salt. Brad Smith has mentioned it a few times too. If they are telling people this product is good to use, what other incorrect information are they telling people.

 

[JoeNavy]

NEIPA

No gelatin
No cold crash
No BTB
No closed loop transfer
Only CO2 purged keg. 1 week into kegging.

 

[motosapiens]

My last 3 batches (all IPA) have ended up a little bit darker/more brown than my final sample before bottling looks.

late to the party here, but is it just the appearance you are concerned about? or can you taste something like oxidation? It is normal for beer to get slightly darker as yeast and stuff falls out of suspension. I personally am interested in the topic of oxidation, but have yet to taste anything like it in any of my beers, even after 10-12 months in the bottle. I have tasted it in older samples of commercial beers, which makes me wonder if bottle-conditioning (as some smarter folks have suggested) helps keep oxidation at bay.

 

[JoeNavy]

late to the party here, but is it just the appearance you are concerned about? or can you taste something like oxidation? It is normal for beer to get slightly darker as yeast and stuff falls out of suspension. I personally am interested in the topic of oxidation, but have yet to taste anything like it in any of my beers, even after 10-12 months in the bottle. I have tasted it in older samples of commercial beers, which makes me wonder if bottle-conditioning (as some smarter folks have suggested) helps keep oxidation at bay.

Both, really. My first NEIPA was almost dark brown, not an attractive looking beer. I bottled that as well, and within 3 weeks it was looking like sewer water and I could taste that stale, cardboard flavor associated with oxygenation. It took away from the hop profile much quicker than I would have expected. With my new process, the beer still has a beautiful, golden color and the taste is while maturing, still great. I don't find many differences in darker beers by design, but with a hoppy ale it is a quick transition if your practices are garbage.

 

[schematix]

late to the party here, but is it just the appearance you are concerned about? or can you taste something like oxidation? It is normal for beer to get slightly darker as yeast and stuff falls out of suspension.

Other way around. When the beer clears the appearance gets lighter. It darkens due to oxidation.

I personally am interested in the topic of oxidation, but have yet to taste anything like it in any of my beers, even after 10-12 months in the bottle. I have tasted it in older samples of commercial beers, which makes me wonder if bottle-conditioning (as some smarter folks have suggested) helps keep oxidation at bay.

You should immediately patent, sell/license whatever wizardry you have created in your process that gives you oxidation free beer. You are sitting on a gold mine.

Bottle conditioning does help A LOT, but it's not a panacea, it just buys you some insurance. It also requires ridiculously low O2 levels going into the bottle at packaging because you need the yeast to scavenge whatever O2 does get into the bottle before it reacts with other compounds (within minutes to hours).

 

[motosapiens]

Other way around. When the beer clears the appearance gets lighter. It darkens due to oxidation.

you seem very knowledgeable on most stuff, but this doesn't even make sense at all. You can look at yeast in the bottom of a bottle and clearly see it is very light in color. You can also observer as fermentation slows in a clear fermenter that the bear darkens considerably as yeast falls out, long before oxidation is an issue.

I wonder if some yeast varieties are more prone to producing oxygenation problems.

for all I know, I have terrible taste buds, but I'm ok with that if it means I like my beer. I'll keep trying to make something that oxidizes.

 

[schematix]

you seem very knowledgeable on most stuff, but this doesn't even make sense at all. You can look at yeast in the bottom of a bottle and clearly see it is very light in color. You can also observer as fermentation slows in a clear fermenter that the bear darkens considerably as yeast falls out, long before oxidation is an issue.

After some more thought I think this particular scenario is largely related to the perception of beer color based based on lighting. You can create lighting conditions to make a hazy beer look lighter or darker than a clear beer just by moving the location of a light source (i.e. front lighting vs back lighting, and the source light color and any background color). Google 'filtered beer images' and you'll see there are a zillion pictures of side-by-side before and after filtering, and there is no consistency to which beer is lighter or darker. However if you look at the lighting in the picture, you can see that where there is a light source from the rear the filtered beer looks lighter, while a light source from the front does the opposite. Further you'll see many pictures where there is light from the side, and that totally skews the color perception.

What you are describing in a carboy is in fact true. The darkness has to due with how little light passes through a wide fermenter vs the amount of light reflected by yeast in suspension.

 

[Morrey]

View attachment 547114

NEIPA

No gelatin
No cold crash
No BTB
No closed loop transfer
Only CO2 purged keg. 1 week into kegging.

I'll say that is one good looking NE IPA you have there. If appearance sells a beer...I'll buy the next round!

I have been using BtB and believe it to work well with beers that will be bottled, canned or kegged for any length of time. I have just begun my comparisons, and at this early stage of the testing, I do believe there is at least some sustained hop vibrancy over beers w/o BtB.

If you drink the NE IPA young and quickly as most do, you'll probably not have any subtle issues from oxygen exposure w/o a closed loop transfer. Oxidation can be one of those sleeper issues that takes a toll very slowly and semi-unnoticed since you are sampling regularly. If a knowledgeable person tastes an oxidized beer for the first time, they can usually pick up on the dulling of the vibrancy and other symptoms of exposure.

I'm hoping that more folks become interested in at least some aspects of LODO so we can all share and discuss what works...or doesn't. Great job on that beer!!

 

[hlmbrwng]

Other way around. When the beer clears the appearance gets lighter. It darkens due to oxidation.

you seem very knowledgeable on most stuff, but this doesn't even make sense at all. You can look at yeast in the bottom of a bottle and clearly see it is very light in color. You can also observer as fermentation slows in a clear fermenter that the bear darkens considerably as yeast falls out, long before oxidation is an issue.

Motosapiens is correct. If you have a NE-style IPA and the yeast drop out, the beer will appear darker. There is less yeast in suspension for light to reflect off of.

I recently kegged a hazy IPA that stayed that way for a couple of weeks. After about 3 weeks, it was no longer hazy and it was significantly darker than before. In my case, I transferred the beer to the keg after flushing it with C02, then after filling it up I used up a ridiculous amount of C02 to flush the headspace. I'm certain that oxygen did not play a part in the color.

Quote from Mastering Homebrew: "Within a couple of weeks for most beers, the beer will start to drop bright, as brewers say, and take on a much darker appearance in the carboy as it clarifies."

But this is not as noticeable in the carboy for a low-flocculent yeast, since much yeast will still be in suspension even when beer is ready for bottling/kegging. If the beer were brewed with a highly flocculent yeast, I doubt there would have been much difference before and after bottling. I'm not sold on oxygen being the issue here. That said, kegging is still great for many others reasons and highly recommend it.