Need cheap ideas for O2 free transfer

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JoeNavy

JoeNavy

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My last 3 batches (all IPA) have ended up a little bit darker/more brown than my final sample before bottling looks. Obviously there is an issue with transferring my wort from the secondary to the bucket, and/or bucket to bottle. There has not been any splashing, bubbling in the lines, or prolonged exposure, yet it still looks oxygenated. I use a standard 5 gallon glass carboy, 5 gallon bottling bucket with a spigot, large auto-siphon and 22oz. brown bottles. The bottles are conditioned on their side for two-three weeks before serving. No noticeable off flavors, but I want my color to be perfect.

What are some cheap (under 100 dollars) ways to move to an oxygen-free transfer that has worked for you? Open to any and all suggestions.
 
First off I'd stop with the secondary. If you have oxidation issues taking an entire transfer out of the equation should help.

Other then that if you are bottling there isn't much you can do other then be careful. When you transfer the beer into a bottling bucket it is exposed to oxygen, there is no way around that. When you add priming sugar and bottle, the thought is that the mini fermentation inside the bottles should consume any excess oxygen picked up while bottling. I haven't seen if anyone has ever tested this with a DO meter, but I have seen lots of pictures of dark brown NEIPA's that were bottled, so I imagine it doesn't remove all oxygen.

If you want to get into O2 free transfers you really need to keg. I cannot think of a way to eliminate oxygen from a bottling bucket, at least not cheaply.
 
TheHopfather said:
First off I'd stop with the secondary. If you have oxidation issues taking an entire transfer out of the equation should help.

Other then that if you are bottling there isn't much you can do other then be careful. When you transfer the beer into a bottling bucket it is exposed to oxygen, there is no way around that. When you add priming sugar and bottle, the thought is that the mini fermentation inside the bottles should consume any excess oxygen picked up while bottling. I haven't seen if anyone has ever tested this with a DO meter, but I have seen lots of pictures of dark brown NEIPA's that were bottled, so I imagine it doesn't remove all oxygen.

If you want to get into O2 free transfers you really need to keg. I cannot think of a way to eliminate oxygen from a bottling bucket, at least not cheaply.
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I was worried that the end result would be kegging. Not that I don't want to, it's just another expense. Plus I will have to get another fridge aside from the one I ferment with.
 
JoeNavy said:
I was worried that the end result would be kegging. Not that I don't want to, it's just another expense. Plus I will have to get another fridge aside from the one I ferment with.
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Well... it doesn't necessarily have to be a full on kegging and dispensing system. You could just get a single keg, CO2 bottle and regulator and some tubing. But really, if you're doing that you might as well go all the way.

To keep the beer O2 free you need enclosed vessels that can hold pressure. The beer needs to be isolated from O2 at all times. With a standard bottling setup you are exposing all of the beer to open environment for a relatively long period of time. There just isn't any getting around that, if your beer is exposed to O2, it will pick up some O2.
 
TheHopfather said:
Well... it doesn't necessarily have to be a full on kegging and dispensing system. You could just get a single keg, CO2 bottle and regulator and some tubing. But really, if you're doing that you might as well go all the way.

To keep the beer O2 free you need enclosed vessels that can hold pressure. The beer needs to be isolated from O2 at all times. With a standard bottling setup you are exposing all of the beer to open environment for a relatively long period of time. There just isn't any getting around that, if your beer is exposed to O2, it will pick up some O2.
Click to expand...

You are right...next question: DIY keezer/kegerator or purchase one?
 
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This is how I try to avoid O2 when racking to a keg:

o2freeracking2.jpg

When I do this, I leave some residual CO2 pressure in the keg. I use it to blow out the gas line from the "IN" post to the top of the fermenter, and to blow out the line from spigot to keg, and even the little area in the spigot spout.

I'm also using a variation on the krausen catcher to capture CO2 when fermenting which will then feed it back to the fermenter when cold crashing creates a partial vacuum in the headspace of the fermenter.

So the name of the game I'm trying to play is to keep O2 away from the beer until time to rack, and then create a closed-loop that prevents O2 exposure during racking.

There is one more place I have to work on to eliminate any exposure. What I like to do is flush or clear the spigot of any trub that has settled there. So I'll pour off a hydrometer cylinder of beer which gives me a read plus flushed the trub. When I do that, I'm pulling air into the fermenter. I am going to either use a little positive pressure from a CO2 tank as makeup "air," or use the positive pressure remaining in the keg to provide that.

BTW: When I first set this up, the only thing I could find that would accommodate the tubing going to the top of the fermenter was...a cut off airlock. I've since replaced that with a piece of rigid tubing. Nothing holy about the airlock--it just happened to fit the tubing I had. :)
 
You wouldn't need to go full on kegging to get the benefits. You could just buy a keg and CO2 system. Put your priming sugar in the keg and do a reduced O2 transfer. Then use a bottling wand or beer gun to bottle from.

Obviously you would still be getting some O2 in the bottling process, but if you purge with CO2 like with a beer gun, it would be minimal. Hopefully the yeast would be able to take any of that up.

Who knows if this is really the problem though? Are you sure it is oxidation that is your problem?
 
It's not for everyone but there is one way to get into the bottle with the least amount of oxidative damage and that is bottle spunding. Basically transferring the beer to bottles while still fermenting with about 4 points of residual extract remaining. I just gravity fill directly from the fermenter into the bottles. It's a pain to catch the ferment at the correct time/gravity but the final results are quite good. I just did this process again, my third time, with a Kölsch a few days ago. The other two were weissbiers and so far I really like the ease and simplicity of the process. I should add you will have to do a fast ferment test to know what your final gravity will be but that process is simple enough.
 
Bilsch said:
It's not for everyone but there is one way to get into the bottle with the least amount of oxidative damage and that is bottle spunding. Basically transferring the beer to bottles while still fermenting with about 4 points of residual extract remaining. I just gravity fill directly from the fermenter into the bottles. It's a pain to catch the ferment at the correct time/gravity but the final results are quite good. I just did this process again, my third time, with a Kölsch a few days ago. The other two were weissbiers and so far I really like the ease and simplicity of the process. I should add you will have to do a fast ferment test to know what your final gravity will be but that process is simple enough.
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So you don't bother with priming sugar I'm guessing? Also, the only problem with that as you eluded to would be assuming your gravity calculations are perfect. I think I'd have to remake a few batches to have some controlls in ensuring I can accurately predict where it will be. Good idea if you nail it!
 
NeoBrew said:
You wouldn't need to go full on kegging to get the benefits. You could just buy a keg and CO2 system. Put your priming sugar in the keg and do a reduced O2 transfer. Then use a bottling wand or beer gun to bottle from.

Obviously you would still be getting some O2 in the bottling process, but if you purge with CO2 like with a beer gun, it would be minimal. Hopefully the yeast would be able to take any of that up.

Who knows if this is really the problem though? Are you sure it is oxidation that is your problem?
Click to expand...

You know, I am not 100% sure. I'm still relatively new (in my first year), so it could be something else. I just can't see anywhere else during my process that would point me in any other direction...
 
JoeNavy said:
So you don't bother with priming sugar I'm guessing? Also, the only problem with that as you eluded to would be assuming your gravity calculations are perfect. I think I'd have to remake a few batches to have some controlls in ensuring I can accurately predict where it will be. Good idea if you nail it!
Click to expand...

No priming sugar, just the residual extract that hasn't finished fermenting is all it takes. This actually is the most elegant way to prime and produces the best foam and flavor. It's fast to carbonate as well usually done in 1 day.
Yes accuracy of the predicted terminal gravity is key. You will need a FastFermentTest. To do that you pull a small sample from the main ferment, say 100ml, near or at high kreusen to do another small ferment in parallel. This one you keep slightly warmer and or put on stir plate or even just shake twice a day. The FFT should reach terminal gravity a day or two before the main batch. Test this gravity and you now know where the main batch will stop fermenting.
 
JoeNavy said:
You know, I am not 100% sure. I'm still relatively new (in my first year), so it could be something else. I just can't see anywhere else during my process that would point me in any other direction...
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I am still working on my pallet for sure. They say that oxidation will give your beer a "wet cardboard" flavor/aroma. Asking a brew friend or even someone at your LHBS to taste and critique would help you figure out if that is what is going on.
 
NeoBrew said:
I am still working on my pallet for sure. They say that oxidation will give your beer a "wet cardboard" flavor/aroma.
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That "classic note" occurs late in the song, after the hop presence has attenuated from no aroma to no flavor to just bitterness, the overall character of the beer has turned decidedly sweeter, and the color darkened.

Asking a brew friend or even someone at your LHBS to taste and critique would help you figure out if that is what is going on.
Click to expand...

A fine idea.

Cheers!
 
I haven't done the calcs, but maybe capture the output of your fermenting bucket into another bucket. Then rack like mongoose33 into that second bucket in closed loop.

That's when it dies because bottling from that bucket will intro O2. Unless you simply feed 1psi CO2 from small tank to bottling bucket top as you bottle.

Maybe.
 
I think the final solution to this is going to be me getting a kegging system. For the effort and price to stay O2-free and get some longevity out of my beers, it will be worth it.

Purging my carboy/bottling system with C02 sounds like a learning curve that would better off being spent with a keg instead. Thanks everyone for the input!

I asked my LHBS, and they are trying my brew tomorrow to evaluate the flavor and color. Should get an experienced review!
 
You could get 2 3 gallon kegs, increase batch size by 1 gallon. Add priming sugar to kegs and naturally carbonate. Get a small co2 cartridge setup and a picnic/ cobra tap and it should fit in your fridge. You won’t regret any of those purchases. Smaller kegs are not as good of bargain, but split batches are nice to do. I️ have 3 smaller kegs, along with several 5 gallon.
 
glugglug said:
You could get 2 3 gallon kegs, increase batch size by 1 gallon. Add priming sugar to kegs and naturally carbonate. Get a small co2 cartridge setup and a picnic/ cobra tap and it should fit in your fridge. You won’t regret any of those purchases. Smaller kegs are not as good of bargain, but split batches are nice to do. I️ have 3 smaller kegs, along with several 5 gallon.
Click to expand...

I went through a bunch of options, but I posted a week ago about the new (to me) keg and kegerator. Even one beer in there makes me ask how I ever bottled!
 
glugglug said:
You could get 2 3 gallon kegs, increase batch size by 1 gallon. Add priming sugar to kegs and naturally carbonate. Get a small co2 cartridge setup and a picnic/ cobra tap and it should fit in your fridge. You won’t regret any of those purchases. Smaller kegs are not as good of bargain, but split batches are nice to xboxdo. I️ have 3 smaller kegs, along with several 5 gallon.
Click to expand...

I went through a bunch of options, but I posted a week ago about the new (to me) keg and kegerator. Even one beer in there makes me ask how I ever bottled!
 
JoeNavy said:
I went through a bunch of options, but I posted a week ago about the new (to me) keg and kegerator. Even one beer in there makes me ask how I ever bottled!
Click to expand...

The "evolution" of a kegger! I have made the point many times, that with all the drawbacks bottling presents, I would have quit brewing long ago if I had not switched to kegging. So versatile and highly efficient. Good move!!
 
NeoBrew said:
They say that oxidation will give your beer a "wet cardboard" flavor/aroma.
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree. Another aspect of oxidation (aka "The Silent Killer) is that it slowly takes a toll and leaves a beer with less vibrancy. If you ever compare an oxidized beer that has some age on it to a fresher beer of the same recipe, you'll quickly determine the O2 exposure takes it's toll with a certain flatness or lack of freshness.
 
Morrey said:
Absolutely agree. Another aspect of oxidation (aka "The Silent Killer) is that it slowly takes a toll and leaves a beer with less vibrancy. If you ever compare an oxidized beer that has some age on it to a fresher beer of the same recipe, you'll quickly determine the O2 exposure takes it's toll with a certain flatness or lack of freshness.
Click to expand...

Espescially with a very hop forward beer like a DIPA, NEIPA etc, you have about a week and a half window where the beer tastes crisp. Even in that time, you can taste it starting to mellow out. After 3-4 weeks all you have is malt, and a stale, scrubbed hop profile.
 
JoeNavy said:
Espescially with a very hop forward beer like a DIPA, NEIPA etc, you have about a week and a half window where the beer tastes crisp. Even in that time, you can taste it starting to mellow out. After 3-4 weeks all you have is malt, and a stale, scrubbed hop profile.
Click to expand...

I know this is going to create a firestorm so let me say this w/o putting my butt on the line.

After reading Denny Conn's blog and exchanging emails with him on this very subject, he suggested a stabilizing additive called BrewtanB. It is somewhat hard to source, but a small amount is added to the mash and again at the end of the boil.

A friend and I are experimenting with BrewtanB now, and my testing seems that hop forward beers as you mentioned are staying brighter and vibrant much longer. In a Brett C IPA and a Hoppy Wheat w/Lemongrass, both beers are over a month old now and have as much hop vibrancy as the day I kegged them.

I am not suggesting or recommending BtB, just saying what is out there and available.
 
Brewtan B should be much easier to find soon. Brewcraft carries it in homebrew quantities. Fortunately, it is cheap enough to use in every batch if there's any benefit. I just bought some yesterday and I am looking forward to trying it.
 
BtB has been available from ibrew.com.au for a while.

It comes airmail from Australia. The exchange rate to USD is quite favorable and overall costs less than you would expect. I expected the shipping to cost more than the entire purchase, product and shipment.

It's not a magic bullet though. You get far more from meticulous oxygen exclusion practices than BtB.
 
Horseflesh said:
Brewtan B should be much easier to find soon. Brewcraft carries it in homebrew quantities. Fortunately, it is cheap enough to use in every batch if there's any benefit. I just bought some yesterday and I am looking forward to trying it.
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Excellent. I'd love to hear your reviews once you have some time with your beers to evaluate the results.

Does Brewcraft sell direct to home brewers?
 
schematix said:
It's not a magic bullet though. You get far more from meticulous oxygen exclusion practices than BtB.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. Collectively as a group, I think home brewers are becoming more keenly aware of oxidation and the long term impacts of O2 exposure. With good O2 preventative measures, first impression is that BtB is adds one more layer to our vibrancy efforts. I agree...cant be sloppy and expect BtB to do all the work.
 
Morrey said:
Absolutely. Collectively as a group, I think home brewers are becoming more keenly aware of oxidation and the long term impacts of O2 exposure.
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I would definitely disagree here. The topic of oxidation has been frustratingly divisive for some reason. I don't think there's any collective agreement about whether it even exists, or how to deal with it effectively.

For the most part i think home brewers are either, unaware, aware and can't do much about it due to equipment, aware and won't do much about it because they don't care, aware but in denial, aware and think they are doing something about it, or aware and are actually doing something about it.
 
schematix said:
I would definitely disagree here. The topic of oxidation has been frustratingly divisive for some reason. I don't think there's any collective agreement about whether it even exists, or how to deal with it effectively.
Click to expand...

Had a tour of Third Space Brewing in Milwaukee in August; wonderful place, great beer, tour was by the owner/brewer. We went by his "lab" room, where I saw a Milwaukee MW-102 pH meter (I have one of those!!) and a dissolved oxygen meter.

He's extremely concerned about keeping oxygen away from his beer post-fermentation. I asked if I could borrow his DO meter to check my own beer, he laughed and said "Sure, with a $12,000 deposit." We laughed also, but it was clear he thinks it's worth a $12,000 piece of equipment to monitor the O2 in his process.

For the most part i think home brewers are either, unaware, aware and can't do much about it due to equipment, aware and won't do much about it because they don't care, aware but in denial, aware and think they are doing something about it, or aware and are actually doing something about it.
Click to expand...

I think that about covers it. :)

I'm the friend Morrey is talking about above. I recently did a first-stage test of Brewtan-B, identical brews (well, really, REALLY close, let's say), and I've been dithering about whether to post results from that here...or wait until a couple months when I have shelf-life info on them.

That experiment is for MY edification, and Morrey's, no one else's, so I'm not trying to do a Brulosophy type of writeup--though I think my work on this is as good on the brewing side, and exceeds on the tasting side.

But I will at some point share the results, including the method. I only had a total of 14 tasters (all of whom had clean palates prior to tasting, no beer drinking prior!), not a significant difference.

I still have 6 bomber bottles of both the control and the BrewtanB batches to test in a month or two, to see if I can confirm--or not!--what Morrey described above. The two batches are a hoppy pale ale, so if there's an effect it would be apparent there.
 
Does anyone see a need for Brewtan B in a keg? I was going to use the substance if not kegging, but with the ability to purge with CO2 I don't see how much it would help. I also don't see how it could hurt the beer either.

My main concern is bottling from the keg for competition and sharing purposes without sediment. I'm not about to drop a carbonating tab into a bottle straight off the fermenter, or buy an in-line filter.

Who has experimented in the keg?
 
Morrey said:
Excellent. I'd love to hear your reviews once you have some time with your beers to evaluate the results.

Does Brewcraft sell direct to home brewers?
Click to expand...

I'll post updates when I can but realistically it will be weeks and weeks before I have a single data point. A stout is up next which isn't the best testbed for BtB's benefits to hops, but I will do a hoppy APA after that.

Brewcraft is one of the main homebrew shop suppliers... They make those ubiquitous black & white bags of chemicals etc. Your LHBS should now be able to get BtB with the rest of the stuff they order really easily.

Some places, like mine, have been buying the brewery-sized packs and breaking them down for sale too. I got 1 oz for $5 and that looks like enough for at least 10 batches. I assume the pre-packaged Brewcraft bag will be in the same ballpark.

As to the oxygen debate... Based on my own experience the benefits of taking steps to reduce O2 exposure were obvious... but I didn't take those steps until I had handled a lot of other brew techniques, like mash pH. There is also only so far I am willing to go. Somewhere around here I saw the claim that bottled CO2 contains enough oxygen to ruin your beer. If that's the case, well, then we have established the upper limit on the quality of my beer, because I am not willing to do without force-carbonation and keg dispensing.
 

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