need advice - go semi-pro?

[chibrewer]

Hey guys,

So I think I need some fellow brewers to confirm what I'm already thinking. I was recently approached by a group of people who are in the process of opening a restaurant, and they want to incorporate some house brewed beers into their plans. They loved my homebrew, so they want me to brew for them, which is awesome, but I don't know that I have the chops for it.

They're thinking about doing something like 100-150 gallons/week, and having maybe three different styles. I have a full time job that I can't quit. I know quite a bit about brewing, but I've only recently gotten into all-grain at home, and I've never brewed on anything bigger than my five gallon set-up. Also, the owners are complete brewing novices so they want me to set up the whole brew house, which I know next to nothing about.

What do you think? should I just bow out gracefully before I get in any deeper? Is it crazy for me to attempt this, or is this something that a homebrewer could pull off with the proper research?

Any and all advice is welcome.

 

[PoppinCaps]

Obviously I've never done this so I have no experience to say yea or nay. However, the entrepreneur in me says recruit someone more knowledgeable, maybe some experience in a local brewery looking to start their own shop, and stay very much involved. Who knows, you may even decide to quit your job and do it full time as well. It sounds like an awesome opportunity, either way. You can absolutely be part of the recipe design, marketing, etc, since they came to you first. Just curious, but what is the range of budget that your friends have set aside for this?

 

[beaSTi07]

Sounds like a dream come true for a lot of people.. You could easily handle it if you wanted to devote 100% of your time.

 

[Denny]

My guess is that what they want you to do isn't even legal. If you're at all tempted, the first step is to talk to a lawyer.

 

[LowNotes]

If they are putting up the cash there isn't much risk for you. I imagine most homebrew recipes would scale pretty easily, and they would probably have money to have a kitchen employee take care of any cleaning/sanitizing of equipment, leaving you to focus on the actual brewing and monitoring things like gravities and calculating IBU's.

Plus, if you get to specify all the equipment, you could get your dream setup, and then if the restaurant fails you could try and buy up the gear dirt cheap. If the restaurant is successful, even better since they will continue to buy all brewing ingredients, and you would of course have to take samples home frequently for Quality Control.

It seems like a good opportunity to me, assuming they don't want you to foot the bill for anything up front. If I were you I would ask what kind of budget they are giving you for equipment and ingredients though, if nothing else just to make sure they are in the right ballpark as far as expectations for the true cost of an in-house brew operation.

 

[LowNotes]

My guess is that what they want you to do isn't even legal. If you're at all tempted, the first step is to talk to a lawyer.

This is sound advice.

 

[TyTanium]

My guess is that what they want you to do isn't even legal. If you're at all tempted, the first step is to talk to a lawyer.

+1. Selling someone else's beer in a restaurant is one thing. Brewing your own is a completely different animal. If they want to go down that path, awesome for you, but I agree with the above to keep your day job and help out when you can as opposed to running the brewing operation.

 

[Calichusetts]

My heart says go for it but my head says no way. Research will only go so far, experience is going to be a factor. What is your 5-gallon system like? You should really have some experience using larger equipment and understanding how they work, are cleaned/maintained, etc. 100+ gallons a week will require some expertise in yeast and harvesting, etc.

It would also help to know the quality of the restaurant...is this closer to a IHOP or a 5-star restaurant. If this place is classy, they will expect great brews...CONSISTENTLY. If that is the case, you really have to have a good grasp of malt specification sheets to ensure that every brew is as close to your recipe as possible.

 

[chibrewer]

Obviously I've never done this so I have no experience to say yea or nay. However, the entrepreneur in me says recruit someone more knowledgeable, maybe some experience in a local brewery looking to start their own shop, and stay very much involved. Who knows, you may even decide to quit your job and do it full time as well. It sounds like an awesome opportunity, either way. You can absolutely be part of the recipe design, marketing, etc, since they came to you first. Just curious, but what is the range of budget that your friends have set aside for this?

So far I have no idea what their budget is. From what they've told me, they have investors lined up to back the venture, they just want me to specify the set up I would need to make it happen and they'll foot the bill. As far as the legal part, I know they're in the process of getting all the proper licenses, but I'd be sure to verify that before I committed to anything.

 

[jamorgan3777]

I also don't have any direct experience in this, but I am in industrial chemist and so know a little bit about "big" batches. Here are some random thoughts:

1. Could you start out smaller and work your way up? Have them start with 1 "house" beer on tap and say "when its gone its gone". People want what they can't have so if its good, it may be a way for the new place to generate some buzz. Brewing 20-40 gal is not that tough compared to 5 and would be a good "stepping stone". Making a "pilot" brewery is not that tough and could be quite fun.

2. Making things for the general public means a heightened level of concern (and expense). Even though beer is relatively safe (even when "spoiled") it is always a concern. One bad batch might not make anyone sick, but it might keep them form coming back.

3. This is likely a BIG time commitment. If you have a 9-5 that is pretty regular and not many more commitments then I would think its doable. If you have a busy life, then this could be a train wreck.

4. On the other side of #3, this could be freakin awesome. You would get to take your "hobby" to the next level. I have heard though that with chefs you have to LOVE it because you have to put up with a lot of crap once you start doing it for money. I would assume that brewing would be the same.

Again, do some research, think about starting small(er) and if you think you have time, go for it!:rockin:

 

[TyTanium]

So far I have no idea what their budget is. From what they've told me, they have investors lined up to back the venture, they just want me to specify the set up I would need to make it happen and they'll foot the bill. As far as the legal part, I know they're in the process of getting all the proper licenses, but I'd be sure to verify that before I committed to anything.

Sweet. If I were in your shoes, I'd encourage them to hire someone with commercial brewing experience to run the brewery. That way you can help as you have time and learn TONS from a pro instead of trying to figure it all out on your own. That way you'd still get most of the benefits but less of the stress/risk.

 

[bitlumpkin]

this sounds like the plot of a movie.

 

[PowellAvenueBrew]

+1 on the lawyer. If everything looks good then look at bringing in a brewery consultant to help you design the system and brew the first couple of sessions with you. They could help you to scale recipes, decide equipment and set you on the right path. It sounds like an awesome opportunity just make sure you feel good about every step.

 

[TopherM]

I used to work at a brewery restuarant and volunteered to help out the in-house brewer almost every weekend.

So you know what to expect, this guy brewed all weekend every weekend on a single 15 bbl system, typically producing two 15 bbl batches a weekend. He would arrive at about 8 a.m. every Saturday and Sunday and leave at about 10 p.m. Cleanup of this system took about 3 hours. Our restaurant had 5 house beers and 2 rotating seasonals. We had 8 30 bbl bright tanks for storage and a sankey kegging setup. The management did the kegging procedure.

The brewer would also stop in here and there during the week for an hour or two to check on batches, etc. We had four 15 bbl fermenters, so max four batches going at any given time.

In total, the brewer probably put in about 32-35 hours a week, and was compenstated about $32K salaried for his efforts.

As a side note, after about 2 years with our brewery, the guy I knew ended up getting an offer from a small startup brewery in NY and bumped his salary up to about $45K to do it full time.

I think that's about what you're looking at. Either quit your day job for about $16/hr. or put in some heavy hours on weekends on the sides.

Just my experience. Hope that helps.

 

[PowellAvenueBrew]

Are you being offered any stake in the company? Also any talk over who owns the recipes if you start brewing for them?

 

[ajm163]

My 2 cents is you need to make it worth the effort for both parties... the problem is they say they want ~100 gallons a week now but what if it takes off and now they need 500 gallons a week this is going to mean allot more work for you to deal with. you need to make sure you are not getting payed a flat rate like $300 a week or something because you will be working way harder if it takes off.... One idea is to tie what you make to actual beer sales. for example if you were compensated 50% of the sale of your brews... if they take off you get rewarded and it also protects them if you brew bad beers that no one wants. the percentage could be adjusted depending on who owns the equipment and who buys the raw materials. you would just need a contract in place and always try and own the recipes that gives you a large bargaining chip if they ever want you out

 

[solo103]

How good is your job? A successful brewer can make a really good living anywhere from 60,000 to 120,000 a year so it may be worth the risk and you may never get a chance like this agian. In order to learn to swim you can't be afraid to get a little wet if its all legit then go for it man

 

[TyTanium]

...A successful brewer can make a really good living anywhere from 60,000 to 120,000 a year so...

Source? (Not saying I don't believe you, just curious; I can't find much data on this)

 

[RichBenn]

I used to work at a brewery restuarant and volunteered to help out the in-house brewer almost every weekend.

So you know what to expect, this guy brewed all weekend every weekend on a single 15 bbl system, typically producing two 15 bbl batches a weekend. He would arrive at about 8 a.m. every Saturday and Sunday and leave at about 10 p.m. Cleanup of this system took about 3 hours. Our restaurant had 5 house beers and 2 rotating seasonals. We had 8 30 bbl bright tanks for storage and a sankey kegging setup. The management did the kegging procedure.

The brewer would also stop in here and there during the week for an hour or two to check on batches, etc. We had four 15 bbl fermenters, so max four batches going at any given time.

In total, the brewer probably put in about 32-35 hours a week, and was compenstated about $32K salaried for his efforts.

As a side note, after about 2 years with our brewery, the guy I knew ended up getting an offer from a small startup brewery in NY and bumped his salary up to about $45K to do it full time.

I think that's about what you're looking at. Either quit your day job for about $16/hr. or put in some heavy hours on weekends on the sides.

Just my experience. Hope that helps.

This is about the hours that I would have predicted. To the original poster:

They are also asking you to set it up. But what does this entail? Throw in a hundred hours at probrewer.com and other sites, phone calls to vendors, and talking to people just learning and specifying the equipment. And that's tough, because if they get too small, it's not enough capacity.

It's certainly seductive, and also scary, which is what I'm guessing you are experiencing while thinking about it.

Bottom line, IMHO - full time job. Or, find people with a certification for them to interview, using yourself as a consultant to help in the selection. You can charge them for figuring it out. You may not know everything, but you know more than they do, probably know what questions to ask, and in that regard, can be involved without quitting your day job.

Rich

 

[Denny]

Source? (Not saying I don't believe you, just curious; I can't find much data on this)

I disbelieve it.

 

[Polboy]

In my opinion if they can take care of the legal stuff, sales and equipment then getting 100-200 gal a week is possible on weekends. Starting with 3 barrel system and 2-3 fermenters +3-4 serving tanks should be sufficient and allow you to brew 2x a week. If starting small like that i would make sure there is enough space to grow in case business is successful.

 

[Dok]

There is some great advice here. As a business owner I learned that mistakes cost money and if you hire on someone to consult you with some experience that will help you avoid learning the hard way. Good Luck

 

[two_one_seven]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/425-bbls-per-year-227055/

This is along the same lines. It worked out pretty well for these guys.

 

[kgoode25]

My 2 cents is you need to make it worth the effort for both parties... the problem is they say they want ~100 gallons a week now but what if it takes off and now they need 500 gallons a week this is going to mean allot more work for you to deal with. you need to make sure you are not getting payed a flat rate like $300 a week or something because you will be working way harder if it takes off.... One idea is to tie what you make to actual beer sales. for example if you were compensated 50% of the sale of your brews... if they take off you get rewarded and it also protects them if you brew bad beers that no one wants. the percentage could be adjusted depending on who owns the equipment and who buys the raw materials. you would just need a contract in place and always try and own the recipes that gives you a large bargaining chip if they ever want you out

Prob best way to go about it. Shared responsibility. Everybody wins if it takes off, figuring out how to make more beer because of demand is a good problem.

 

[wncbrewer]

I am currently apprenticing at a local micro with a 10 bbl brewhouse, 4 fermenters and 6 brights. In my experience, the brewday process is very similar to what we do at home, its cleaning and packaging that is quite different. I would recommend contacting a brewery that is currently up and running to see if they will let you hang out and see all their processes. This would also give you a better feel for what sort of equipment you will need if you decide to go for it. I also question the salary range listed as when I say I'm apprenticing what I really mean is working for free on my day off from my day job. Wish you the best and hope it works out