Need a debate settled

[NorsemenRugby58]

Recently my efficiency has been horrible. I decided to rectify every issue I thought may be the problem all at once. I bought my own mill, re made my manifold, and did an enhanced double decoction mash.

The debate I had with my brother was about sparging. He said that we did not need to run the mash completely out of the tun and then spare. Basically we began fly sparging right over our first running. I believe this is wrong because I have never seen it done this way....or heard of it being done this way. I always though that you drain the tun first....bring your first running up to temp and then fly spare. Who is right?

 

[NorsemenRugby58]

Also provide why whoever is right is right. Thx

 

[bob1852]

There is no "right" way to sparge. Many ways work fine. The most common way is to drain the mash, then sparge, since sparging is mostly about rinsing.

 

[PoppinCaps]

Yeah, I've never seen a debate actually ended on this forum. Not that one ever needs to be, because so many interesting ideas are brought up.

For me, when I fly sparge through a normal manifold (not braid) I'll start the drain and pump sparge water right on top of the mash after the 15 min HERMS ramp up. I get better efficiency that way compared to draining the mash first. May have to do with air pockets created in the mash during draining without water on top screwing up my channels?

 

[biestie]

If you're fly sparging you don't drain the wort out of the mash tun. You maintain about an inch of water above the grain bed by continuously adding water while slowly draining the runnings.

If you're batch sparging you drain the wort completely out then add another volume of water to the mash tun and collect that.

 

[NorsemenRugby58]

Both ways make sense was just wondering

 

[NorsemenRugby58]

I just wanted to drain everything out first. Doesn't make sense to me to drop the sparge water on first without draining

 

[biestie]

So here's a question. You say you completely drain the first runnings. Then what?

 

[PoppinCaps]

The heavy wort will want to sink to the bottom of any water added if it's done gently. About a gallon into the sparge and the 1" water on top of the grain is crystal clear. I think the trick is trying to maintain an even flow of 170F water through the grain evenly. Also, make sure you drain and sparge very slowly, like a trickle. When I went from 30min fly's to 50min, my mash/lauter efficiency jumped 5-7%.

 

[NorsemenRugby58]

Then I fill the tun up with spare till one inch above the bed and beg in draining out the other end

 

[biestie]

Have you ever gotten good efficiency that way?

 

[NorsemenRugby58]

No because I was batch sparging single infusion mashing and using my lhbs for a crush

 

[biestie]

Your issue was likely only the crush. Efficiencies in the high 70s and possibly into the 80s are easily attainable with single infusion mashes and batch sparging even with a simple wire braid for a manifold. The accepted rule is that yield is the best with fly sparges, but in homebrewing setups, it's not by a lot. Now the fly sparging process as you describe it is really probably closer to batch sparging than fly sparging, and if you're not stirring the grist when you add the water for the second time, I suspect you're still going to have efficiency problems.

I would go back through the brewing network podcasts and listen to a Sunday session where Denny Conn was the guest. It was what opened my eyes to the fact that's I was making mashing way too difficult.

 

[Dynachrome]

I do batch sparging. I don't completely drain the grain bed though. I leave it almost submerged.

Actually a friend of mine told me to take a little of the first runnings and get it all cleared up - fan this back out onto the grain right away. This is supposed to help clarity. The grains then act as a bit of a filter and keep your manifold from clogging. I use braided line. He makes really great beer BTW.

When I ad my first sparge water I pour the water onto the edge of a stainless steel lid to fan it out and not disturb the grain.

...then I do my second sparge in the same manner. This time I drain it all.

 

[biestie]

Yes, you should send a quart or two of your first runnings back through. It's called vorlauf. Now I could be wrong here, but on the second sparge, when I add my water I'm not only NOT careful to not disturb the grain bed, I stir it up. Then I vorluaf that as well and collect them. I THINK if you don't stir up your compacted grain bed you'll get a lot of channeling on your second runnings.

This is all one guy's opinion, but I get great efficientcies, no tannin extraction, and it takes way less time than monkeying with a fly sparge. I think your efficiency issues are with your crush, and the fact that your second sparge isn't very effective because of what I described. But read up, listen to the brewing network and decide for yourself how you want to go about it. That's the beauty of homebrewing, there's no right or wrong answers, just finding what works for you.

 

[Bobby_M]

Fly and batch sparging are completely different but it seems so many people mix and match small parts of each process and end up with less than ideal results. You can batch sparge with any equipment but fly requires a manifold or false bottom.


Fly = add sparge and drain at the same rate. No stirring.
Batch = drain, add water, stir like mad drain.

 

[SailorTodd]

Fly and batch sparging are completely different but it seems so many people mix and match small parts of each process and end up with less than ideal results. You can batch sparge with any equipment but fly requires a manifold or false bottom.


Fly = add sparge and drain at the same rate. No stirring.
Batch = drain, add water, stir like mad drain.

That's about as consice as it gets. Simple, to the point.

 

[NorsemenRugby58]

Thanks all for the replies. I do vorlauf for clarity. Our debate centered around whether to drain the kettle fully or not. For example, we add the mash water, let sit for 60 minutes...vorlauf. Then drain all of that wort into the kettle. Next (only after the bed has been completely drained) fill with sparge water and open the bottom and drain into the kettle and add at the same rate from the top. That was my contention.

My brother wanted to skip draining fully. Instead, he contended that all we needed to do was vorlauf, and then slowly add our sparge water at the top at the same rate we let it out the bottom and do it that way. It seems after much research, he was correct. We got 83% efficiency on the batch, and had to actually water it down to hit our numbers. I can't complain, because before when we did single infusion/batch sparge and got the crush from our LHBS our efficiency hovered in the mid to upper 50s.

I guess thats what happens when you go from single infusion/batch sparge/LHBS crush to decoction mash/fly sparge/crush your own grains.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks all for the replies. I do vorlauf for clarity. Our debate centered around whether to drain the kettle fully or not. For example, we add the mash water, let sit for 60 minutes...vorlauf. Then drain all of that wort into the kettle. Next (only after the bed has been completely drained) fill with sparge water and open the bottom and drain into the kettle and add at the same rate from the top. That was my contention.

My brother wanted to skip draining fully. Instead, he contended that all we needed to do was vorlauf, and then slowly add our sparge water at the top at the same rate we let it out the bottom and do it that way. It seems after much research, he was correct. We got 83% efficiency on the batch, and had to actually water it down to hit our numbers. I can't complain, because before when we did single infusion/batch sparge and got the crush from our LHBS our efficiency hovered in the mid to upper 50s.

I guess thats what happens when you go from single infusion/batch sparge/LHBS crush to decoction mash/fly sparge/crush your own grains.

Your brother's technique is the correct one for flysparging. Batchsparging is different- where the first runnings are drained and then water is added to the grains. But it's usually added in a "batch" (all at once), and stirred, not slowly drained.

 

[pinback]

so basically you both lose the debate and you both win the debate, all at the same time...

Fly = add sparge and drain at the same rate. No stirring.
Batch = drain, add water, stir like mad drain.

love how simple this makes it

 

[Homercidal]

I batch Sparge. #WINNING!

You can get close to the same efficiency doing either.

My bet is that you got a better crush than you used to.

 

[wailingguitar]

Every commercial brewery I have ever worked in begins the sparge the moment that runoff begins. People speak of sparging as a "rinse" of the grains to remove the sugars, more accurately you are soaking the sugars from the grain. Commercial systems use long runoff times to a) avoid pulling a vacuum and sticking the runoff and b) keeping sparge water in contact with grain for an extended period of time. Granted, you are talking about much deeper grain beds, which are more prone to sticking, but the principal is the same.

 

[VladOfTrub]

I was wondering what an enhanced double decoction mash is? Does enhanced mean, that you start at a low temp protein rest, say like 130. Then pull a decoction, boil it up, and add it back to the tun to raise the entire mash to conversion temp? Then pull another decoction and add it back to reach mash out temp?... We triple decoction most everything we brew. We dough in with cold water. Then pull decoctions to hit 100, 130 and then any where between 145 to 160 degrees, depending on the brew. Sometimes I'll skip the protein rest and go from cold to the 100 degree acid rest, then to 146 and then 155 using decoctions to raise the temps. The only thing that I do, that I'll call enhanced, is that instead of doing a mash out decoction. I heat the mash kettle untill the entire volume of mash hits 168. Then the mash is transfered to the lauter tun for fly sparging. We use two direct fired kettles. The decoction kettle and mash kettle. The lauter tun is a seperate vessel.