Need a better understanding of mash out, water volumes

[carter840]

So I only have a 7 gallon kettle and that's about as much as my electric stove can handle so I need a better understanding of mash out and the proper grain to water ratio to make sure I don't end up with too much water. I really only boil off about .3-.5 gallons for a 60 minute boil so my case might be someone unusual.

Assuming that I am doing a 5.5 gallon batch and lose .5 gallons to hop and other solids I should never boil more than 6.5 gallons if I want my proper OG. How the heck can I keep my grain to water ratio and sparging volumes in line with this? Assuming I want to mash 17 lbs of grain I would need about 5.6 gallons of water to keep my 1 lb grain/ 1.25 liter ratio. Using beer smith I'm also told to add 3.5 gallons of water to hit my mash out temperature (that seems like a lot of extra water to add). Then I am supposed to sparge (fly sparge) with 1.5 gallons of water. Now this is just an example, but it shows what I am talking about. This is just too much water! So can I reduce the ration of grain to water to 1lb/1liter? Can I get mash out temperature using a decocoction mash technique instead of adding more water.

Basically If I need 6.5 gallons of wort, how should I divide this up amongst my water contributions?
What water addition is the most critical to maintain?
-The water to grain ratio?
-The amount used for sparging?
-Should I change how I hit mash out (less volume of water added but add hotter water, or use docoction to get mash out)? Obviously it changes with the amount of grain, but I need better a better understanding then I now have. I use beersmith so perhaps I am just not using the right mash out techniques or selecting the right options, I want to understand it myself though as well as how to better use Beersmith.
Thanks and sorry for the long post

 

[Nashbrewer]

Mash outs are not required, based on what you are doing I would leave them out all together. Plus with your initial 5.6 gallons will be 5.6-1.7 = 3.9 when you drain. 6.5-3.9 = 2.6 is how much you have left to sparge with or about there depending on system variables such as dead space. You can decrease the lb/water ratio to 1:1 which will give you more to sparge with but you may want to stir more often and have a longer mash. 4.6-1.7= 2.9, 6.5-2.9=3.6 to sparge with at the lower setting approximately. If you are doing fly sparge you really want to prep about 9-10 gallons of water, use the 1:1 or 1:1.25 ratio, then after the mash and vorlauf go straight to sparging until you hit 6.5. However much that is.

 

[carter840]

So you are saying I can just completely skip mash out?

 

[brewkinger]

So you are saying I can just completely skip mash out?

Pretty much. Are you fly sparging?

 

[Yooper]

So you are saying I can just completely skip mash out?

Absolutely. Or sparge with hotter water so that the grainbed gets up to 168 if you want to do a pseudo mashout.

 

[carter840]

I do try to fly sparge, but I tend to sparge faster than most do. I don't know why but I always just find it doesn't take me that long to sparge. Maybe I should just close up my ball valve a bit more, but I tend to finish my fly sparge in about 15-20 mins.

I guess I will just get rid of the mashout step. It's a shame I sort of ruined an IIPA last night. Came in way low on my OG, but it was a lesson learned.

 

[brewkinger]

After giving it a second thought, I think your numbers are a little off.

17# grain at 1.25 qt/lb will give you 5.3 gal of mash water
Deduct the 2.2 gallons of absorbed water into the grain

Should be 3.1-ish into the kettle for first runnings.

Leaves 3.4 gallons of sparge to bring you up to your 6.5 gallon boil volume.
I usually divide this in half to make 2 equal sparge amounts, so 1.7 gallons

THat should be your 6.5 gal boil volume

Unless I am missing something critical, I hope this makes sense. ( it does to me)

 

[Nashbrewer]

If you are doing a 17lb mash that is a bit high in grain and the higher you go the lower your efficiency will go in both conversion and lautering issues. So that can also be a big factor when making big beers. The only thing you can do is stir more and use more water overall and boil it down.

 

[bazowie]

When fly sparging do you calculate the amount or water at 168 you will need to reach your boil volumn or do you just sparge with an undetermined amount until you reach the volumn you need?

 

[acidrain]

I think maybe you are using the term "mash out" incorrectly. Mash out is when you raise the temperature to 168F to stop the enzyme action.
Most will agree that today's malts don't need a mash out (especially if you sparge quickly).
Just mash at 1.25 qts. per gallon, Vorlauf and begin draining. As soon as you begin draining, add your sparge liqueur as needed to keep about 1" of water on top of the grain bed.
Keep draining until you have your pre-boil volume. Easy.

 

[bazowie]

When fly sparging do you calculate the amount or water at 168 you will need to reach your boil volumn or do you just sparge with an undetermined amount until you reach the volumn you need? And leave the rest of the water in the mash?

 

[carter840]

When fly sparging do you calculate the amount or water at 168 you will need to reach your boil volumn or do you just sparge with an undetermined amount until you reach the volumn you need? And leave the rest of the water in the mash?

I try and use beer smith to properly calculate the amount of sparge water I need, but frankly I don't think I have set it up correctly. I need to change my mashing style to represent what we are talking about. What does beer smith call this? Is it a single infusion no mash out with fly sparge? I also need to adjust my boil off volume. Since this is part of the issue.

 

[brewkinger]

I try and use beer smith to properly calculate the amount of sparge water I need, but frankly I don't think I have set it up correctly. I need to change my mashing style to represent what we are talking about. What does beer smith call this? Is it a single infusion no mash out with fly sparge? I also need to adjust my boil off volume. Since this is part of the issue.

I would say it would be a big step in the right direction. I have been using BS for about 6 months and I was constantly tweaking the finer details for the first 3 batches.

Boil off rate
trub loss
losses to fermenters.. etc...

Once you get them dialed in for your system, I would hedge a bet that you will see good results.

Of course, I discovered last weekend that evap rate on a 52 degree day in Vermont is much less than previous brewday that was 18 degrees.

I noticed the difference early but did not want to compensate for extra, so I just had a slightly bigger batch than planned and came in at 1.054 instead of 1.056