Natural Yeast?

[bornavag]

I have been making my families recipe for hard cider (we call it "apple jack", please let me know if this is common) for several years. One thing that has struck as being odd is that I have never added yeast to any batch, yet everywhere I look for info on recipes it talks about getting rid of the natural yeast and adding another strain.

I am not sure why this is. The only references I can find indicate that natural/wild yeast is undesirable, but do not explain why.

Please keep in mind I am just (past week or so) now starting to look and find info on home brewing and I am not too familiar with a lot of the lingo or techniques I have seen in the threads I have read so far.

Thanks,
bornavag (born a vagabond)

 

[KevinM]

It's not that it's undesirable. Sometimes it's very desirable. What it is, however, is unpredictable and sometimes hard to duplicate which wild yeasts are active and for how long.
Yeast strains are known usually isolated strains of yeast that will produce something consistent regardless of location. North US, South US, Europe, etc. Assuming all other conditions (humidity, temperature etc) are the same, then I'll wind up getting the same cider/beer, etc.
Your wild yeast in PA is different than my wild yeast in MI. Different yeasts act at different times so my wild yeast can be a combination where one yeast acts, then another yeast overtakes it creating a combined flavor. This can also depend on the time of year as well, though for cider, we really look at one part of the year, compared to beer.
If you have a wild yeast that turns out well and pretty consistently, then celebrate that fact. Drink a few extra ciders for us.

 

[KevinM]

Oh yeah, and also, with that unpredictability. Sometimes some batches are good, sometimes the batches aren't so good and are destined for a drain.

 

[bornavag]

The only negative I have experienced has been a metallic taste. Not enough to not drink it though.

I brew for the flavor so the metallic taste really stood out. This only really occurred once, not sure why.

I have made my Apple Jack in both PA and MI, while living in each state. I have not noticed any real difference between the locations and how the batch turned out. Though I usually only two to three gallons at a time so it does not last long.

 

[dinnerstick]

predictability/reproducibility indeed. the cider houses in normandy that use natural yeasts do the exact same thing year in year out from the same trees and get highly consistent results. idiots like me who don't care if they completely balls up a batch or get a one-in-a-million gem by sheer dumb luck use natural yeasts for the thrill of it and the satisfaction of using only one ingredient. i do small batches, and if i get the apples from friends or my local orchard i always go with natural yeast. to date i have never had an undrinkable batch from wild yeast. although that may say more about my unrestrained zeal for alcoholic liquids than my cider-making abilities. if i don't know where the apples are from, or if they have been sitting around a shelf for a while, or they are waxed supermarket apples, then i add yeast

 

[KevinM]

Year round? That would be interesting to try, and how long they age it and how it would compare to a spontaneous fermentation here. I've heard that lambics generally get their wild yeast at a certain timeframe in the year, and generally from a particular region. I understand that apples and cider is a bit more consistent due to the season and location. I don't know about others, but I generally see fresh apples in the late summer to late fall. I unfortunately don't see any ripe trees in the middle of March in my area to try. I think the apples I see are from New Zealand at that point. I agree, easier to add yeast than who knows whats causing it to ferment, and from who had touched them. I always imagine some kid picking his nose, or some sweaty guy sratching his armpits then touching the produce.

I do know that my sourdough starters from both normal bread yeast and natural yeasts have resulted in varied tastes in bread, depending on which starter I had used, as well as some starters I had gotten from friends from other locations. Different dominant wild yeast strains and all, which is why Sanfrancisco Sourdough was pretty famous as a bread. Really too bad I had to give those up.

There's quite a few good threads in the Lambic and wild brewing section. They talk about their consistency, as well as culturing the wild yeasts in order to get reproductions to continue to use the same yeast.
Again though, the answer to the question that was originally posed, the only reason we talk about certain yeast strains is that we all have access to them (even if only via the internet) to reproduce the same exact product and eliminating most of the randomness that can possibly occur, particularly due to location and season.

...I wonder if I can get a gluten free culture of Lactobacillus sanfrancisco, I know it's out there by now... Yum.

 

[dinnerstick]

Year round?

no- just every year! i assume they are very precise about harvest time.

can't you culture a SF strain away from gluten-based flour? start a culture on non-gluten flour from a tiny bit of a regular starter, and then start another from that, and another, if you use 1/100 volume of the previous starter each time by the time you've done it four times there is something like 1/100000000 volumes (ie. none) left of the original? just curious.

now, back to cider yeast, i wonder what they use in the north of spain, where they are mad for their very dry, very flat cider which is poured at arms' length in small volumes and very splashily into a wide flat glass. the waiters pour the first glass for you (get most in the glass if they are any good) and then you pour the rest onto your shoes.