natural carbonation without priming

[animus_divinus]

historically, it seems beer/ale was not primed after being made.. in fact, it had an expiration date of only a few days after it was ready to be drank

the natural process of fermentation releases carbon dioxide, but its lose through a gas exchanger installed on the fermenter (you all know this, its just rhetorical as i get to my point)

anyway.. i was wondering if it was possible that when i start brewing more traditional, and sometimes ancient types of beer... would it at all be possible to stop the fermentation process just a tad early and seal the fermentation container to store the beer?

if this can be done.. when you take the stopper off the container, youll let air in, and CO2 out.. but if this is done without removing the yeast.. would there be enough CO2 release at the end of the fermentation process to re-carbonize the container naturally?.... or would it be a better idea to have a stopper with a rubber flap on the inside of the container, so that once you pull out the gas exchanger, the stopper itself is automatically sealing the container as soon as the exchanger is pulled?.. of course, adding some kind of clamping mechanism to the container to prevent the stopper itself from popping out from the pressure

if this is possible.. my idea is to, for example, after ive settled on a recipe i wanted to make in larger quantities, i could boil the wort, and instead of pouring it all into a 5 gallon carboy, i could pour it into five 1-gallon carboys... since when its opened id only have a few days to drink it all

 

[Kaz]

Its definitely possible, its how many of the larger breweries get their product out in such a short time. At some point near the end of primary fermentation, they can seal their fermenters and begin to use the yeast to force carb the product. You could do it at home, problem I see is that most of the homebrewing fermentation vessels aren't rated for pressure and would break or blow the lid. Now, if you're fermenting in a stainless conical, that's a whole different ball game...

 

[BrewBeemer]

I like your thinking and ferm process, post your future results.
I would lean towards any low pressure fermentation process this a plus in maintaining a low carbonation and pressure up until you tapped and poured.
This would also enhance the safety of the bier from possible infections plus allowing longer post tapped times for your enjoyment, flat bier just doesn't work as well those fizzy Jbiers MO.

 

[Catt22]

Yes, it can be done. Ideally, you would use a spunding valve which will regulate the maximum pressure in the vessel. Without a spunding valve, it would be very hit or miss on hitting the desired carbonation level. This is why normally we let beers finish out in the fermenter, then add a precisely measured amount of sugar. The amount of carbonation is directly proportional to the amount of sugar added, so it's very predictable.

I'm not quite following what you have in mind with the stopper and check valve arrangement, so i cannot comment on that part, but otherwise it sounds like you are trying to make a cask conditioned ale. You can buy miniature adjustable pressure regulating valves for about $15 and it would not be difficult to rig them up for something similar to what you describe.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#metal-pressure-regulating-valves/=bozgsd Look for part number 3834T51 on that page.

 

[storunner13]

Definitely can be done. I haven't yet done a real pressure ferment, but I did seal up a keg of a hefeweizen I was fermenting. It was a little overcarbed, but I brought it down with the spunding valve which catt22 talked about.

There's a huge thread about it with plenty of information:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/closed-system-pressurized-fermentation-technique-44344/

 

[BrewBeemer]

I would use a SS adjustable PRV set low.

 

[animus_divinus]

so youre saying instead of the water filled gas airlock device to prevent air from getting in while letting CO2 out, i use a pressure release valve set to a low PSI?... and when fermentation is completed enough the amount of pressure it can create will decrease and carbonize the drink... resulting in a method thatll carbonate itself when fermentation is almost 100%.. sounds good

i had another idea.. take a rubber stopper with the hole in the middle for the airlock... and take a sheet of rubber, cut out a circle to fit to the bottom of the stopper, cut a semi-circular shape in that thatll set just below the hole.. so theres a flap.. when the airlock is inserted it should push the flap away.. when its removed, that flap should cover the hole... if you poked a small hole in that flap, itll seal itself up due to the elasticity of rubber, and release gas only with enough pressure... anyway, if i could get a pressure release to fit into the stopper it would be great

anyway, checking online ive found people that sell very, very small, inexpensive pressure relief valves.. if i could get a thick metal cap for my glass jugs i could mount this directly into the cap.. with a ring of rubber between the metal cap and the top of the glass jug as a gasket i wouldnt have to worry about any rubber stoppers popping off... and before i go to open the bottle theres a ring on it i can pull to release the remaining pressure prior to opening it... and these little valves are only $5 each... this would be PERFECT

 

[animus_divinus]

simple enough.. what if i just got some brass tubing.. capped on one end, threaded on the other.. inside the cap end would be a spring... a weak spring, and attached to the open end of the tubing would be a piece of cork or rubber or something... as pressure raises, it pushed that piece of cork or rubber higher in the piece of brass tubing where at some point there will be holes drilled to release the pressure... tunable by using a strong or weaker spring... then itll cost me all of about 50 cents to make a series of these devices.. could attach a cup to hold water too so that air cant get back in... im open to ideas

 

[KipIngram]

I don't think you could get the cork or flap to hold a seal well enough while still moving in response to the pressure differential with your brass tube gadget. You would need it to be pressurized on one side and not on the other and stay that way for a "long" time. If the thing is loose enough to slide I think gas would get by and equalize the pressure.

Cool idea, though, and maybe I'm wrong.

How does a car tire pressure gauge work? Does it show you the pressure while completely sealing in the gas, even long term? If so then maybe you could copy that mechanism for your design.

Kip

 

[KipIngram]

Well, looks like a tire gauge works exactly like you describe. You could make your gadget by drilling a tiny hole in the side of a tire gauge as a relief port. You would have to guess exactly where to drill it, though.

I still don't know if the seal between the cylinder and the plug would hold pressure over a long period of time, though. It could represent a slow leak and still work for its intended purpose, but that would be a show stopper for you.

Kip

Sent from my iPad using HB Talk

 

[animus_divinus]

the brass tube gadget would be seperate, threaded into the cap and sealed... should have some way to lock the brass tube gadget in place so you cant accidently release pressure... but have an option to manually release it before opening... behind the piece of rubber or cork there wouldnt be any pressure except for coil spring pressure..

i need to run the numbers and calculate the weight of spring i would need for the 5-12 PSI i should use, and get a piece of brass tubing to match the OD of the spring... drill a hole in the cap behind the spring, then a couple on the side to vent gasses... whenever the PSI inside the container is greater than the strength of the coil spring itll move the plug upwards to the point where the vent holes are exposed venting the gasses, at which point pressure inside would be reduced and the spring would push the plug back into place... the spring, which holds the pressure would last for many years, and if anything, a spring resists more pressure the more it ages..

materials needed would be a length of thin copper or brass tubing.. heck, plastic would probably work too, but i dont like having plastics in contact with my beverages.... a length of spring of strength would be determined by how many PSI i want to be held inside, i would need a matching die and tap set to cut threads onto the brass or copper tubing and to thread the hole drilled in the center of the cap, and basic tools... it might actually be better to just drill a hole in the cap, then tighten done a brass nut on each side with rubber washers in between to create a seal

once fermentation has been completed.. it wouldnt matter if the rubber plug got stuck or not as it wouldnt be generating anymore gasses, then i could store these containers in a dark cupboard...

one question though... when gasses are vented, would air flow back in?.. i dont think so, because WHEN gasses are vented, theyll be under pressure, and as gasses are exiting with pressure, gasses could not enter... and when the spring returns the plug to its normal position, the pressure inside the container will still be greater than atmospheric.. so a water gas lock i dont believe would be neccessary

 

[animus_divinus]

anyway.. just try to imagine a spring-loaded piston inside a tube of brass or copper... a lighter spring behind the piston results in a lower PSI... im not sure the tire gauge would actually work.. i believe that just reads the PSI in the tire, not release it.. however it would still be great to have one to verify the setup works

 

[KipIngram]

I don't think air would flow back in when it vented. My only concern is when it's in steady state "non-venting" condition. On one side you have gas pressure and on the other side the spring, with the forces balanced. You're right on with your physics. But your seal has to be perfect or gas will very slowly leak from the high pressure side to the low pressure side, so the pressure would gradually drop. My worry is that if the seal is that good then the fit will be too tight for the plug to move - the shear force between the plug and the cylinder wall will also resist the pressure.

At any rate, this just seems like a really hard thing to do without precision machining.

Kip

Sent from my iPad using HB Talk

 

[animus_divinus]

hmm... if anyone has any other ideas, it would be interesting to hear about it...

the seal would be tight enough to seal gasses.. however, what if you lubricated the plug with a little cooking oil.. spray the inside of the tube before inserting it?... that small amount wouldnt hurt the alcohol even if it did leak in, which it shouldnt, thats one idea

another idea would be to use some kind of a flap with a tapered rubber stopper on it, with a spring to hold it closed.. i could take a flat piece of copper sheet, cut a strip out and bend it into a circle to fit around the copper pipe, where the pieces join i could bend them outwards and make the outside of a hinge.. drill a hole through that... then make a brass cap with another flap sticking out for the other section of the hinge... get a piece of rubber, cut it to a concical shape and drill a small hole through that, and the cap to put a small screw into it holding it on.. and for a spring, something as simple as a clothes pin spring could work,

this would allow gasses to vent out without resistance from the plug itself, but still create a suitable seal

an even simpler idea... get a flat piece of brass cut from a sheet with the punch thatll act like the cap... drill small holes around it, and inside these holes i could solder in some little brass screws to the cap itself, and to the brass tubing.. between the nails on the top and bottom i could wrap a rubberband... just fold over a rubber band to increase the amount of pressure it holds.. this would be really simple to make, and just uses some brass tubing, a small piece of brash sheet, and a bag of rubber bands

 

[animus_divinus]

here.. i made a sketch of the new idea... the yellow is the brass tubing and cap.. the blue are rubber bands, the gray is the rubber seal ,and the off-white is another piece of brass tubing that matches the inner diameter of the yellow piece.. but the inner piece is perforated

the rubber bands create the resistance, the perforated piece inside the main piece is there to keep the cap aligned with the rest of it, and is perforated so gasses will flow inside that piece, and out through the holes drilled, so the gasses dont vent too quickly

a hole can be drilled in a cap and this can be slid through, and is threaded on the bottom so that a rubber washer and a nut can be used to hold it to the cap...

if the wall thickness of the main piece of brass tubing isnt thick enough, a small piece of a larger piece could be fitted around the rim and epoxy glued into place... and the nails could be epoxy glued in as well.. the rubber bands wont have enough pressure to absolutely require any soldering or threading

pressure is obviously adjusted by the number, and strength of the rubber bands, and the tapered rubber gasket on the cap will insure a seal when fermentation is complete

would cost little more than 50 cents to a dollar max to make one of these and would allow fermentation to complete with enough pressure for natural carbonization without any added work by the brewer... just ferment and forget essentially

 

[storunner13]

Closed-System Pressurized Fermentation Technique

I've already posted this link, but I'll post it again so you guys can check it out. Are you planning on carbonating to specific style volumes (i.e. 2.2-2.5 vols.), or are you thinking about traditional English ales which have very little carbonation? If you're planning on carbonating to anything more than about 1 vol. CO2, and if I've been following your posts correctly, you're missing out on a couple points. First, to carbonate your beer to 2.5 vols. you will need to pressurize it to 28.5 psi at 65˚F. That's the same as 13 psi at 42˚F. Now, you might be talking about traditional english ales which had little carbonation at all, so then your idea might work. However, if you are planning on having normal carbonation, you should not ferment at >10 psi as it will inhibit yeast growth (read more about it in the link). You'll want to ferment at 5-7 psi for the yeast to reproduce, then 15 psi for part of the fermentation (inhibit ester production) and seal it off with 1-2 points to go to let the pressure rise to around 30psi.

I'm sorry if I'm completely missing the point on this thread. Please forgive me if I am.

 

[HItransplant]

Sounds interesting...just be careful if you are using glass fermenters, I have yet to see any rated for pressure.

Bottle bombs are bad enough...a carboy exploding would be nasty

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

Closed-System Pressurized Fermentation Technique

I've already posted this link, but I'll post it again so you guys can check it out. Are you planning on carbonating to specific style volumes (i.e. 2.2-2.5 vols.), or are you thinking about traditional English ales which have very little carbonation? If you're planning on carbonating to anything more than about 1 vol. CO2, and if I've been following your posts correctly, you're missing out on a couple points. First, to carbonate your beer to 2.5 vols. you will need to pressurize it to 28.5 psi at 65˚F. That's the same as 13 psi at 42˚F. Now, you might be talking about traditional english ales which had little carbonation at all, so then your idea might work. However, if you are planning on having normal carbonation, you should not ferment at >10 psi as it will inhibit yeast growth (read more about it in the link). You'll want to ferment at 5-7 psi for the yeast to reproduce, then 15 psi for part of the fermentation (inhibit ester production) and seal it off with 1-2 points to go to let the pressure rise to around 30psi.

I'm sorry if I'm completely missing the point on this thread. Please forgive me if I am.

What he said.

 

[animus_divinus]

maybe i should get a glass carboy soon.. put a rubber stopper in it and put a ball pump through.. see which PSI it explodes at and then set the maximum at 50%-75% of that... im not looking for much pressure at all... and i may even consider rolling and welding some 1 gallon stainless steel jugs for this purpose.. but would like glass for visuals if possible

i wasnt planning on more than 5PSI... im looking for a more traditional, natural carbonization, basically just enough for preservation in a sealed container as average amounts of carbonation or cold agitates my ability to swallow (2/3 paralyzed esophagus)

also, im more interested in traditional ales of an era before high carbonization and refridgeration.. so ancient, medieval, and renaissance style ales

 

[animus_divinus]

the kind of ales i intend to brew are the kind that go bad after a few days of exposure to air.. so i may not even need to pressurize... if carbonization and pressure is not neccessary, and im able to preserve the ale simply by sealing it from air, i could easily just put a valve on a piece tubing with a typical airlock device to prevent air from getting in.. then when its done i could just close the valve and remove the airlock... but im not sure if this will prevent it from going bad or not... it SHOULD, but im not an experience brewer yet

you can give me a glass of water.. and ill drink it just fine, in fact i drink water daily, and rarely thing anything else at this point... give me a glass of water thats been forcefully carbonated with pressurized CO2 and its absolutely offensive to my taste buds and senses.. i cant stand it.. its why im so picky on beers, and am pretty limited to what i can and cannot drink... the leading, if not only offender in these cases is the carbonization.. so as little as possible is what im shooting for

 

[Catt22]

Closed-System Pressurized Fermentation Technique

I've already posted this link, but I'll post it again so you guys can check it out. Are you planning on carbonating to specific style volumes (i.e. 2.2-2.5 vols.), or are you thinking about traditional English ales which have very little carbonation? If you're planning on carbonating to anything more than about 1 vol. CO2, and if I've been following your posts correctly, you're missing out on a couple points. First, to carbonate your beer to 2.5 vols. you will need to pressurize it to 28.5 psi at 65˚F. That's the same as 13 psi at 42˚F. Now, you might be talking about traditional english ales which had little carbonation at all, so then your idea might work. However, if you are planning on having normal carbonation, you should not ferment at >10 psi as it will inhibit yeast growth (read more about it in the link). You'll want to ferment at 5-7 psi for the yeast to reproduce, then 15 psi for part of the fermentation (inhibit ester production) and seal it off with 1-2 points to go to let the pressure rise to around 30psi.

I'm sorry if I'm completely missing the point on this thread. Please forgive me if I am.

This is the best information in the entire thread. Excellent!

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

This is the best information in the entire thread. Excellent!

I would add that if you are planning on harvesting the yeast, the increased pressure may damage the cell walls.

I typically will keep it at 7psi until it is within a point of so of being done, then I'll let it run up to 15 psi. The rest I do force carbed.

It really is amazing the difference in the feel of the carbonation.

 

[animus_divinus]

well.. origionally beer and ale wasnt carbonated, nor refridgerated, since carbonated and refridgerated drinks dont set well with me anyway, i see no reason why i should change that.. just because coors, miller, budweiser says it should be cold?.. psh, beer has been warm since the dawn of time