n00b Questions on Wild/Sour Beers

[ZmannR2]

So, being a somewhat experienced homebrewer, I look at this section and have no idea where to even start.

Are there any starter threads around on sours and wild yeasts etc.?

I've had sours before at a beer dinner one time and they just tasted like someone threw some sour patch kids in there. Like just artificially sour. Was that the wrong kinda "sour"?

Also, where can we cultivate this "brett" and other forms of bugs? I just would love somewhere to start.

Also, should I not use my SS brew bucket for this type of stuff as an infection could occur in beers I don't want it in?

Anyways, thanks!

 

[crane]

I'm still fairly new to the game myself, but here is what I did to gain some insight into this area.

1 I bought the American sours book
2 I watch all the activity on this sub forum
3 download and listen to all the sour hour pod casts
4 check out the milk the funk wiki page. (they also have a Facebook group but I don't FB so I haven't checked it out)
5 buy lots of sour beer (your wallet will be lighter than normal) and try different ones to see what styles you like

In the realm of sour beers there are 2 basic camps. Traditional long term mixed fermentation and fast kettle souring. The sour you describe as sour candy would most likely came from the fast kettle souring method. These are generally less complex in flavors and lack any of the funky Brett flavors.

 

[m00ps]

There is literally an article at the top of the home page. Read it


Sour beers, both commercial and homebrewed, vary widely. I've had excellent ones and then I've had ones that I severely regretted spending money on. Like, to the point where I can't even imagine that a team of brewers felt they could release this beer upon the public. Its a very mixed bag. You just need to jump in and find what works for your tastes.

 

[Aristotelian]

^What this guy said. The book is American Sour Beers by Michael Tonsmeier, and he also has a blog if you search for "mad fermentationist."

Also look on Facebook for the Milk the Funk page.

 

[Morrey]

I'm still fairly new to the game myself, but here is what I did to gain some insight into this area.

1 I bought the American sours book
2 I watch all the activity on this sub forum
3 download and listen to all the sour hour pod casts
4 check out the milk the funk wiki page. (they also have a Facebook group but I don't FB so I haven't checked it out)
5 buy lots of sour beer (your wallet will be lighter than normal) and try different ones to see what styles you like

In the realm of sour beers there are 2 basic camps. Traditional long term mixed fermentation and fast kettle souring. The sour you describe as sour candy would most likely came from the fast kettle souring method. These are generally less complex in flavors and lack any of the funky Brett flavors.

I recently visited "The Funkatorium" which is Wicked Weed's barrel sour facility in Asheville NC. Let me say there is a lot to this style of brewing. It reminds me more of the way wine is handled as opposed to beer.

They put beer/wort over lots of fruits (in this case cherries) for a longggg slow fermentation process, ie...the funky Brett nuisances abound. The wooden barrels were actively fermenting with blow off tubes for airlocks. They leave this in place for months at a time in barrels that were previously used for wine or spirits like bourbon or rum. Then they do lots of blending and combining since the wild process is somewhat difficult to predict.

I thought this entire process a bit on the advanced side even though I do lots of sour beers within my comfort zone. I prefer to brew the more predictable and faster method as in kettle souring Gose type beers using lacto strains such as L Plantarum.

It may be worth your while to visit a place making barrel aged sours so you can see this first hand. Many of the big places I visited like Sierra Nevada and New Belgium had a barrel souring area of operation. They typically sell bombers of barrel aged sours for $13-$16. My favorite is a Kreik from New Belgium. I resigned myself to buying a few of these at a time vs gambling on a long process that may fail with the added expense of the barrels which is key in my opinion. As not to leave on a negative or "sour" note, kettle sours are predictable, fun and tasty. This would be a great way to get your feet wet and move forward if you are so inclined. Just my .02.

 

[Morrey]

There is literally an article at the top of the home page. Read it


Sour beers, both commercial and homebrewed, vary widely. I've had excellent ones and then I've had ones that I severely regretted spending money on. Like, to the point where I can't even imagine that a team of brewers felt they could release this beer upon the public. Its a very mixed bag. You just need to jump in and find what works for your tastes.

I can't agree more!! I had a Kreik sour I bought (13.99) from my beer and wine store that was horribly bitter and simply couldn't drink it. How in the world do they (brewery) expect to remain in business? I agree with your assessment that sour beers are widely different.

 

[bruteforce]

I can't agree more!! I had a Kreik sour I bought (13.99) from my beer and wine store that was horribly bitter and simply couldn't drink it. How in the world do they (brewery) expect to remain in business? I agree with your assessment that sour beers are widely different.

Who made it? I want to be sure I don't waste $14

 

[worlddivides]

I've had sours before at a beer dinner one time and they just tasted like someone threw some sour patch kids in there. Like just artificially sour. Was that the wrong kinda "sour"?

That sounds REALLY good. I've had hundreds of sour beers by now, but I've never had one that tasted like sour patch kids. But I would love to try a beer like that. If it was another homebrewer who made it, maybe "sour patch kids" was what he was going for. I'll add that to my list of ideas for beers to try to brew in the future.

But, as you can guess from my reaction, that's not how sours typically taste.

There are tons and tons and tons of different kinds of sours. As styles, they can be divided mainly into: the Belgian styles of Lambic, Gueuze, Flemish brown ale (aka "Oud Bruin"), and Flanders red ale (or "Flemish red ale"), and the German styles of Berliner Weisse and Gose, and the American styles of American wild ales (which include 100% Brett ales, which are typically more "tart" than "sour"). Many of those styles have lots of sub-categories within them. Lambics, for example, can be drunk aged with nothing added or with a wide variety of fruits (sour cherry, raspberry, black currant, and cassis being the most popular), vegetables, or herbs. Nowadays some traditional styles such as Gose, which contains sea salt and coriander, now also contain a lot of new interesting flavors. Sierra Nevada's Otra Vez, for example, is a Gose that contains prickly pear cactus and grapefruit.

Personally, I would get into drinking sour beers before brewing them just so you can get an idea of what you like and what you don't like. And when you find something that you really want to brew, then you know where to start.

Also, where can we cultivate this "brett" and other forms of bugs? I just would love somewhere to start.

Brettanomyces ("Brett") is everywhere on every continent in every country, literally. It's just as common (if not more so) than Saccharomyces. Traditional Belgian sour beers (such as Lambics) use "spontaneous fermentation" from the microbes in the air (including Brett).

For homebrewers who don't want to take the risk (since there are millions of microbes in the air, really, and you're just as likely to get the "bad" microbes as you are to get the "good" ones), the typical yeast companies all offer Brett and lactic acid-producing bacteria. White Labs, Wyeast, East Coast Yeast, etc. etc. Some are blends with a mixture of brewer's yeast, "wild yeast," and bacteria, while others are pure strains of just one (such as Lactobacillus or Brettanomyces).

I can't agree more!! I had a Kreik sour I bought (13.99) from my beer and wine store that was horribly bitter and simply couldn't drink it. How in the world do they (brewery) expect to remain in business? I agree with your assessment that sour beers are widely different.

A... bitter... kriek? How is that even possible? I can't even imagine...

 

[Aristotelian]

Also, where can we cultivate this "brett" and other forms of bugs? I just would love somewhere to start.

Regarding brett...The cheapest source I have been able to find is dregs from New Belgium & Friends Fat Funk. I was able to get singles of this in the grocery store. Very easy to culture the dregs into a starter. Ferment as usual with your primary yeast, and then add your brett starter. The flavor is more "funky" than sour. People compare brett to "horse blanket" or "straw".

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=586043

Another classic commercial source for brett is Orval, which you can use in the same way.

 

[TimmyWit]

Dr. Lambic posted a nice primer just a few days ago:

http://sourbeerblog.com/fundamentals-of-sour-beer-fermentation/

 

[Morrey]

Who made it? I want to be sure I don't waste $14

I can't remember the brewery but it was just this week I bought the bomber. Next time I go back in the beer/wine store I'll look and post back the brewery name. I typically think of a Kreik as a bit sour, a bit "leathery" (my name for funky goodness), maybe a bit sweet. But bitter? Yikes!!!!

 

[Morrey]

Please allow me to wander off topic a bit, but this is sort of close to the thread.

With a normal Lambic styled beer (Kreik for example) taking months and month to ferment and age, has anyone done a fast kettle soured version? Seems I read a brewer made a kettle soured cherry wheat beer, but how would that turn out?? I know the complicated flavors won't develop w/o months of time and Brett of course, but is there a quick souring version that may be fun and tasty for a quickie?

 

[TimmyWit]

Please allow me to wander off topic a bit, but this is sort of close to the thread.

With a normal Lambic styled beer (Kreik for example) taking months and month to ferment and age, has anyone done a fast kettle soured version? Seems I read a brewer made a kettle soured cherry wheat beer, but how would that turn out?? I know the complicated flavors won't develop w/o months of time and Brett of course, but is there a quick souring version that may be fun and tasty for a quickie?

I think what you're looking for is more along the lines of a Cherry Berliner Weisse. Maybe try a fast souring method with Lacto.

 

[Morrey]

I think what you're looking for is more along the lines of a Cherry Berliner Weisse. Maybe try a fast souring method with Lacto.

Have you tried a Cherry BW yet? I think this is pretty much what I would like to try and you nailed it.

I just looked at Amazon and they offer a tart cherry concentrate that gets good reviews. W/O the muss and fuss of whole cherries, how would be this concentrate added to the keg after fermentation?

 

[TimmyWit]

Have you tried a Cherry BW yet? I think this is pretty much what I would like to try and you nailed it.

I just looked at Amazon and they offer a tart cherry concentrate that gets good reviews. W/O the muss and fuss of whole cherries, how would be this concentrate added to the keg after fermentation?

I have not done one myself. But, even if you do the cherry concentrate, I believe you would still want to add it prior to fermentation being complete so you can ferment out the sugars. If you are looking to make it sweet and not ferment the concentrate, I would just add it at serving rather than the keg so that you can adjust to taste. That actually wouldn't be too far off from how it is sometimes offered in Germany. You can get different flavor "mixcups" to go in your Kindl Berliner Weisse.

 

[burninator]

Have you tried a Cherry BW yet? I think this is pretty much what I would like to try and you nailed it.

I just looked at Amazon and they offer a tart cherry concentrate that gets good reviews. W/O the muss and fuss of whole cherries, how would be this concentrate added to the keg after fermentation?

Creature Comforts did a cherry version of their berliner (Athena Paradiso) that was incredible.

 

[ZmannR2]

There is literally an article at the top of the home page. Read it

Ya lol I didn't see that....my bookmark takes me straight to the forum. Perfect timing eh?