Mystery ingredient in Duvel?

[Dave Sarber]

I like Belgian beers, and most of my brews are Belgian clones. The one that is driving me crazy is Duvel, more specifically the head on a Duvel. Large rocky head that does not dissipate, and lacing that does not slide back into the beer, but instead, dries on the sides of the glass. I have been very successful in duplicating the taste, less successful in duplicating the clarity, and an epic fail in duplicating the head. I don't want to use oats or wheat to improve the head, but lose the clarity. Anyone have any ideas?

 

[MrPowers]

Do you step mash? Do you use a gentle boil? Do you naturally carbonate or spund? Those would be the first things I would look into to improve head retention.

 

[Dave Sarber]

Do you step mash? Do you use a gentle boil? Do you naturally carbonate or spund? Those would be the first things I would look into to improve head retention.

Yes, I step mash, practically required for Belgian pils. As far as boil, define gentle! (I would say yes). And I bottle condition.

 

[Robert65]

Duvel contains nothing but (besides water, hops, and yeast) Pilsner malt and a crap ton of dextrose. No secret ingredients, it is beautifully simple. The secret to that head is in process. Mashing and boiling that establishes the substrate, fermentation that does not compromise it, and intensive, natural carbonation for that fine, dense head. Homebrewers are often shocked that it's that simple, that you can get that kind of foam not only without head-forming adjuncts, but even with large amounts of protein-diluting sugar, but it is true. Like many of the world's great beers, the recipe is simple, the process is too, but execution is everything. As others mention, step mash, low intensity boil, and spunding are surely recommended. Maybe more time carbonating if you ferment to completion and then prime and bottle condition? (You could do a lot worse than having to consume batch after batch of cloned Duvel in pursuit of nailing it down though, right?)

 

[MrPowers]

Yes, I step mash, practically required for Belgian pils. As far as boil, define gentle! (I would say yes). And I bottle condition.

What is your step mash schedule, what Pilsner malt are you using, and do you get malt lot analyses sheets?

Edit: In this case, gentle boil means just barely more than a simmer for 60 minutes. Shooting for less than 10% evaporation.

 

[Dave Sarber]

What is your step mash schedule, what Pilsner malt are you using, and do you get malt lot analyses sheets?

Edit: In this case, gentle boil means just barely more than a simmer for 60 minutes. Shooting for less than 10% evaporation.

131°F for 15, 149°F for 60, 158°F for 15, mashout 168°F. I use a more vigorous boil than simmer, more around 20% evap.
Oh, and I use Dingemans pils. Usually get it from NB, no analysis sheets.

 

[MrPowers]

131°F for 15, 149°F for 60, 158°F for 15, mashout 168°F. I use a more vigorous boil than simmer, more around 20% evap.
Oh, and I use Dingemans pils.

The mash schedule looks pretty good. I would adjust it slightly to the following:
131F - Not really necessary. I would eliminate it for simplicity unless you're using the time to set mash PH before the beta rests.
149 - Keep as is or, if you can, split into three rests of 20 min each @ 144, 148, 152.
158 - Bump this up to 163F and hold it for 30 min.
168 - Bump this up to 171F and hold for 10 min. This along with the 163F rest are going to do the most for your head retention.

You're probably going to want to decrease the intensity of your boil as well. Even with just a simmer using all pilsner malt it's incredibly unlikely you will run into any issues with DMS.

Edit: If you want all of the science/more info, I would go read this blog post from Bryan. http://www.********************/uncategorized/foam/

 

[Pennine]

CaCl and more carbonation

 

[MrPowers]

CaCl and more carbonation

If only it were that easy!

 

[Dave Sarber]

We'll, I was planning a brew day tomorrow, just purchased some ingredients for pickup today for a Belgian pale, might give the Duvel clone another crack instead. The boil could be the issue, I noticed my previous attempts are a little darker than they should be.

 

[Dave Sarber]

CaCl and more carbonation

If only it were that easy!

Yeah I use RO water with added CaCl and CaSO4, and generally bottle carb to 3.5 volumes.

EDIT: What got me wondering about this is that I've never seen lacing dry on the glass, instead of sliding back down into the beer.

 

[MrPowers]

We'll, I was planning a brew day tomorrow, just purchased some ingredients for pickup today for a Belgian pale, might give the Duvel clone another crack instead. The boil could be the issue, I noticed my previous attempts are a little darker than they should be.

I would also definitely move that 158F rest to 163F. That adjustment and reducing the intensity of your boil should help a lot. I can't recommend checking out that link enough though. You will find a lot of additional helpful information.

 

[Dave Sarber]

I would also definitely move that 158F rest to 163F. That adjustment and reducing the intensity of your boil should help a lot. I can't recommend checking out that link enough though. You will find a lot of additional helpful information.

Thanks for the link, very informative!
More beersperimenting tomorrow.

 

[MrPowers]

Thanks for the link, very informative!
More beersperimenting tomorrow.

If you try the Duvel clone again make sure you let us know how it turns out!

 

[Dave Sarber]

If you try the Duvel clone again make sure you let us know how it turns out!

Yeah, I need to road trip to the LHBS later today for ingredients for another brew, which is now postponed. I will try the Duvel tomorrow. Since I have to drive into town, I'll stop at Total Wine and pick up some more Duvel for comparison tasting.


Hmm...and maybe some Rochefort 10...

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Duvel fans will enjoy this article : Duvel's In The Detail — Duvel Moortgat's Iconic Belgian Golden Strong Ale

There's a lot of "process" - many centrifuges, minimisation of exposure to heat and oxygen etc - but the mystery ingredient that makes the head is CO2. They force carb to 2.55 vol, then add fresh yeast and sugar to take it up to 4.3 volumes of CO2. That's a lot, even by Belgian standards.

 

[monkeymath]

Saison Dupont also has amazing head retention, without any cereal adjuncts. It's quite fascinating, I think.

 

[bierhaus15]

The secret to the head on Duvel is NITROGEN.

It is dosed in each bottle at packaging. Paired with the high C02 it produces that voluminous foam.

 

[Vale71]

The secret to the head on Duvel is NITROGEN.

I hope you're just joking.

 

[bierhaus15]

Why would I be joking? Nitrogen dosing in Belgian beer for head retention is very common. Orval is another one that does it.

 

[Vale71]

Have you been drinking? OK, stupid question on a brewing forum...

1 - You can't add nitrogen to bottled or othewise packaged beer
2 - Serving on nitro was literally never a thing in Belgium, it's a Guinness thing that now countless others are trying to copy/exploit

 

[VikeMan]

The secret to the head on Duvel is NITROGEN.

It is dosed in each bottle at packaging.

Nitrogen dosing in Belgian beer for head retention is very common. Orval is another one that does it.

I'm pretty sure both of these statements are untrue.

 

[bierhaus15]

Have you been drinking? OK, stupid question on a brewing forum...

1 - You can't add nitrogen to bottled or othewise packaged beer
2 - Serving on nitro was literally never a thing in Belgium, it's a Guinness thing that now countless others are trying to copy/exploit

Well you must not know much about packaging beer, as liquid nitrogen dosing systems for beer bottles has been around for so long its not even worth the effort to prove otherwise.... 5 min of googling on the topic will be revelatory for you. And nitro dosing bottles is completely different than serving via nitrogen. The Belgian breweries that use it are only looking to produce a voluminous, sturdy foam in their bottled products when coupled with high package C02 vol. No widget required.

I'm pretty sure both of these statements are untrue.

Sorry if it bothers you, both both are true.

 

[twd000]

well I learned something new today. This article doesn't mention Duvel, but it talks about all the ways nitrogen is used in the beer packaging process. I assumed that cans and bottles were purged with CO2, but apparently it's more common to use nitrogen for that purpose.

They also mention an interesting way to approximate the Guinness nitro widget effect to get dissolved nitrogen into a beer without the widget

https://beverage-master.com/2019/04/nitrogen-use-in-the-brewery-the-pour-says-it-all/

 

[VikeMan]

Sorry if it bothers you, both both are true.

Do you have any authoritative sources that state Orval and Duvel are dosed with Nitrogen?

 

[cmac62]

My first thought was flaked barley, but then I read the rest of the thread. I'm going to have to go and read the links. Dave, what yeast are you using as I also love that beer.

 

[cmac62]

168 - Bump this up to 171F and hold for 10 min. This along with the 163F rest are going to do the most for your head retention.

You're probably going to want to decrease the intensity of your boil as well. Even with just a simmer using all pilsner malt it's incredibly unlikely you will run into any issues with DMS.

Edit: If you want all of the science/more info, I would go read this blog post from Bryan. http://www.********************/uncategorized/foam/

The link didn't work for me. Can you please give me the clif-notes version of why this is. I always thought the 170 mashout was only to kill off the enzymes and stabilize the sugars after the mash and before the boil. Thanks

 

[day_trippr]

[...]https://beverage-master.com/2019/04/nitrogen-use-in-the-brewery-the-pour-says-it-all/

Thanks for posting the link to this article, lots of interesting info wrt nitrogen and beer, including this impressive factoid: "One drop of liquid nitrogen expands seven hundred times its volume when going from liquid to gas."

Woooo baby! The possibilities range from awesome to tragic. Fun!

Cheers!

 

[Twinkeelfool]

http://www.breweryhistory.com/journal/archive/162/Orval.pdf
This mentions Orval adding nitrogen at bottling. Interesting, I’d never heard of that.

 

[Vale71]

Well you must not know much about packaging beer, as liquid nitrogen dosing systems for beer bottles has been around for so long its not even worth the effort to prove otherwise.... 5 min of googling on the topic will be revelatory for you. And nitro dosing bottles is completely different than serving via nitrogen. The Belgian breweries that use it are only looking to produce a voluminous, sturdy foam in their bottled products when coupled with high package C02 vol. No widget required.

Dosing bottles with nitrogen is a non-existent process. You've fallen victim to a marketing scam that insinuates that you can have nitrogen in bottled beer simply by putting the word "nitro" on the label. Anyway I don't care either for your attitude or for the nonsense you're spouting to I'm done with you.

 

[Vale71]

http://www.breweryhistory.com/journal/archive/162/Orval.pdf
This mentions Orval adding nitrogen at bottling. Interesting, I’d never heard of that.

Unfortunately that's pure poppycock. They claim they're dosing the bottles to 15 ppm of N2. That would me 15 milligrams per liter of dissolved N2.
A quick calculation shows that this correspond to N2 saturation at 25°C for a partial pressure o 0.26 bar.

OK, let's set aside the fact that you have around 8 grams of CO2 per liter and only 15 milligrams of N2 and that's 500 times less N2 than CO2 so how is that going to make a difference in a foam bubble that will be made of 99.5% CO2?

Let's just apply gas laws and determine the equilibrium pressure for 15 ppm of N2 at 25°C. I'll spare you the calcs and just give you the result: 0.26 bar absolute pressure. Wait a sec, air is 78% nitrogen, at a nominal atmospheric pressure you have almost 0.8 bar N2 partial pressure. This means that simply by exposing beer to air you would get three times the amount of dissolved N2 that they claim to be actively dosing in their bottles...

So basically they claim to be dosing N2 in the bottles by actually taking away? Does that make sense to you? To me it certainly doesn't.

I must say the amount of hype and misinformation circulating on the topic of nitro serving is really astounding.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

There’s a craft brewery here that has a bottled nitro stout. It’s been out a while now, I’ve never tried it but I always wondered how that worked. Googling I did find a lot of sites from companies who sell inline nitrogen injectors/systems. Though nothing related to the head of the beer though, more for the smooth mouthfeel and low carb I suppose.



I’m certainly not going to argue your calcs, gas laws and theories are a bit of a mind f$#k haha

I have a disposable nitro bottle setup and tap. For British beers I love it. Not as good as a beer engine but much cheaper and much less effort.

 

[Vale71]

There’s a craft brewery here that has a bottled nitro stout. It’s been out a while now, I’ve never tried it but I always wondered how that worked.

It works like this:

1 - bottle to a low carb level
2 - put the word NITRO in big, bold letters on the label

That's all there is to it. Really.

To actually get a meaningful level of dissolved N2 would require pressure of dozens and dozens of bar, which would turn any glass bottle or aluminum can into a hand-grenade.

The only safe way to actually do it is to use some sort of widget, which is filled with N2 at a low pressure and will burst upon opening releasing N2 bubbles into the beer.

 

[Birrofilo]

http://www.breweryhistory.com/journal/archive/162/Orval.pdf
This mentions Orval adding nitrogen at bottling. Interesting, I’d never heard of that.

This is very interesting material, the "recipe" goes quite in detail and will certainly help in making a clone.

The grist and mash schedule are quite detailed. @Dave Sarber might try this exact recipe and see how it compares with his clone.*

Nitrogen is used in small quantity to purge headspace, but it might be that its interaction with the rest of the foam will make it different. It's not how much is in there, but what is its possible effect.

Considering that nitrogen is available in normal cylinders just like oxygen and carbon dioxide, the OP might have a try in "capping on foam" using nitrogen to make the foam on half the bottles of a batch, like Orval, and then see if the foam is different.

As a side note, the person referred to as Mathilde of Tuscany in this text is probably not the person Italians would refer to as Mathilde di Canossa or Matilde di Toscana, and who presumably never was in Northern Europe, although she did found several monasteries religious institutions (luoghi matildici), but her mother, Beatrice di Lotaringia (aka Beatrice di Toscana or Beatrice di Lorena).**

* PS Ops, the OP is cloning Duvel, not Orval!

** Re-Ops. Reading better, actually Mathilde of Tuscany was briefly in the region when she married Goffredo il Gobbo, and then went back to Italy! This was before she actually inherited the various territories of the "Dominion of the Canossa".

 

[monkeymath]

As a side note, the person referred to as Mathilde of Tuscany in this text is probably not the person Italians would refer to as Mathilde di Canossa or Matilde di Toscana, and who presumably never was in Northern Europe, although she did found several monasteries religious institutions (luoghi matildici), but her mother, Beatrice di Lotaringia (aka Beatrice di Toscana or Beatrice di Lorena).

Thanks, I had been wondering all this time.

 

[Birrofilo]

Thanks, I had been wondering all this time.

The sarcasm is only due to a scarce respect for history and a scarce knowledge of the importance Matilde di Canossa has in Italian history and culture. Any child in Italy is supposed to know who she was. Never figured out she married in Belgium, though. (It's as if you told me Shakespeare married in Russia, my fault).

 

[luizartur]

The mash schedule looks pretty good. I would adjust it slightly to the following:
131F - Not really necessary. I would eliminate it for simplicity unless you're using the time to set mash PH before the beta rests.
149 - Keep as is or, if you can, split into three rests of 20 min each @ 144, 148, 152.
158 - Bump this up to 163F and hold it for 30 min.
168 - Bump this up to 171F and hold for 10 min. This along with the 163F rest are going to do the most for your head retention.

You're probably going to want to decrease the intensity of your boil as well. Even with just a simmer using all pilsner malt it's incredibly unlikely you will run into any issues with DMS.

Edit: If you want all of the science/more info, I would go read this blog post from Bryan. http://www.********************/uncategorized/foam/

@MrPowers, could not access the link cause it's not working. Could you please send it again? Thx.

 

[monkeymath]

The sarcasm is only due to a scarce respect for history and a scarce knowledge of the importance Matilde di Canossa has in Italian history and culture.

I do not deny these accusations. But I am pretty certain that a good deal of people on this forum do not know a whole lot about Mathilde of Tuscany, the whereabouts of her wedding or the name she is known by in Italy. I was merely amused by the disparity between the amount of detail you provided on the topic and the lack of apprehension I expected on a forum dedicated to beer. (History geeks, speak up!)

So, yeah, I will not apologize for my ignorance. However, my sarcasm was admittedly uncalled for. I did not mean to ridicule your enthusiasm or interest in the matter - on the contrary, the great benefit of a forum such as this lies precisely in the different viewpoints and backgrounds of its contributors. I'm sorry if my joke came off as disrespectful or dismissive of Italian culture per se.
Like any sane person, I love Italy.

 

[bkboiler]

this is like my neighbor...we're both engineers.
He took his car in to get new tires. They said "how'd you like us to fill them with 100% nitrogen"?
He said "nah, the 78% blend is just fine with me"
the service advisor was like

 

[effeffe]

@MrPowers, could not access the link cause it's not working. Could you please send it again? Thx.

Delete the whitespace from this: https://www.themodern brewhouse.com/foam/