Mystery ingredient in Duvel?

[Vale71]

http://www.breweryhistory.com/journal/archive/162/Orval.pdf
This mentions Orval adding nitrogen at bottling. Interesting, I’d never heard of that.

Unfortunately that's pure poppycock. They claim they're dosing the bottles to 15 ppm of N2. That would me 15 milligrams per liter of dissolved N2.
A quick calculation shows that this correspond to N2 saturation at 25°C for a partial pressure o 0.26 bar.

OK, let's set aside the fact that you have around 8 grams of CO2 per liter and only 15 milligrams of N2 and that's 500 times less N2 than CO2 so how is that going to make a difference in a foam bubble that will be made of 99.5% CO2?

Let's just apply gas laws and determine the equilibrium pressure for 15 ppm of N2 at 25°C. I'll spare you the calcs and just give you the result: 0.26 bar absolute pressure. Wait a sec, air is 78% nitrogen, at a nominal atmospheric pressure you have almost 0.8 bar N2 partial pressure. This means that simply by exposing beer to air you would get three times the amount of dissolved N2 that they claim to be actively dosing in their bottles...

So basically they claim to be dosing N2 in the bottles by actually taking away? Does that make sense to you? To me it certainly doesn't.

I must say the amount of hype and misinformation circulating on the topic of nitro serving is really astounding.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

There’s a craft brewery here that has a bottled nitro stout. It’s been out a while now, I’ve never tried it but I always wondered how that worked. Googling I did find a lot of sites from companies who sell inline nitrogen injectors/systems. Though nothing related to the head of the beer though, more for the smooth mouthfeel and low carb I suppose.



I’m certainly not going to argue your calcs, gas laws and theories are a bit of a mind f$#k haha

I have a disposable nitro bottle setup and tap. For British beers I love it. Not as good as a beer engine but much cheaper and much less effort.

 

[Vale71]

There’s a craft brewery here that has a bottled nitro stout. It’s been out a while now, I’ve never tried it but I always wondered how that worked.

It works like this:

1 - bottle to a low carb level
2 - put the word NITRO in big, bold letters on the label

That's all there is to it. Really.

To actually get a meaningful level of dissolved N2 would require pressure of dozens and dozens of bar, which would turn any glass bottle or aluminum can into a hand-grenade.

The only safe way to actually do it is to use some sort of widget, which is filled with N2 at a low pressure and will burst upon opening releasing N2 bubbles into the beer.

 

[Birrofilo]

http://www.breweryhistory.com/journal/archive/162/Orval.pdf
This mentions Orval adding nitrogen at bottling. Interesting, I’d never heard of that.

This is very interesting material, the "recipe" goes quite in detail and will certainly help in making a clone.

The grist and mash schedule are quite detailed. @Dave Sarber might try this exact recipe and see how it compares with his clone.*

Nitrogen is used in small quantity to purge headspace, but it might be that its interaction with the rest of the foam will make it different. It's not how much is in there, but what is its possible effect.

Considering that nitrogen is available in normal cylinders just like oxygen and carbon dioxide, the OP might have a try in "capping on foam" using nitrogen to make the foam on half the bottles of a batch, like Orval, and then see if the foam is different.

As a side note, the person referred to as Mathilde of Tuscany in this text is probably not the person Italians would refer to as Mathilde di Canossa or Matilde di Toscana, and who presumably never was in Northern Europe, although she did found several monasteries religious institutions (luoghi matildici), but her mother, Beatrice di Lotaringia (aka Beatrice di Toscana or Beatrice di Lorena).**

* PS Ops, the OP is cloning Duvel, not Orval!

** Re-Ops. Reading better, actually Mathilde of Tuscany was briefly in the region when she married Goffredo il Gobbo, and then went back to Italy! This was before she actually inherited the various territories of the "Dominion of the Canossa".

 

[monkeymath]

As a side note, the person referred to as Mathilde of Tuscany in this text is probably not the person Italians would refer to as Mathilde di Canossa or Matilde di Toscana, and who presumably never was in Northern Europe, although she did found several monasteries religious institutions (luoghi matildici), but her mother, Beatrice di Lotaringia (aka Beatrice di Toscana or Beatrice di Lorena).

Thanks, I had been wondering all this time.

 

[Birrofilo]

Thanks, I had been wondering all this time.

The sarcasm is only due to a scarce respect for history and a scarce knowledge of the importance Matilde di Canossa has in Italian history and culture. Any child in Italy is supposed to know who she was. Never figured out she married in Belgium, though. (It's as if you told me Shakespeare married in Russia, my fault).

 

[luizartur]

The mash schedule looks pretty good. I would adjust it slightly to the following:
131F - Not really necessary. I would eliminate it for simplicity unless you're using the time to set mash PH before the beta rests.
149 - Keep as is or, if you can, split into three rests of 20 min each @ 144, 148, 152.
158 - Bump this up to 163F and hold it for 30 min.
168 - Bump this up to 171F and hold for 10 min. This along with the 163F rest are going to do the most for your head retention.

You're probably going to want to decrease the intensity of your boil as well. Even with just a simmer using all pilsner malt it's incredibly unlikely you will run into any issues with DMS.

Edit: If you want all of the science/more info, I would go read this blog post from Bryan. http://www.********************/uncategorized/foam/

@MrPowers, could not access the link cause it's not working. Could you please send it again? Thx.

 

[monkeymath]

The sarcasm is only due to a scarce respect for history and a scarce knowledge of the importance Matilde di Canossa has in Italian history and culture.

I do not deny these accusations. But I am pretty certain that a good deal of people on this forum do not know a whole lot about Mathilde of Tuscany, the whereabouts of her wedding or the name she is known by in Italy. I was merely amused by the disparity between the amount of detail you provided on the topic and the lack of apprehension I expected on a forum dedicated to beer. (History geeks, speak up!)

So, yeah, I will not apologize for my ignorance. However, my sarcasm was admittedly uncalled for. I did not mean to ridicule your enthusiasm or interest in the matter - on the contrary, the great benefit of a forum such as this lies precisely in the different viewpoints and backgrounds of its contributors. I'm sorry if my joke came off as disrespectful or dismissive of Italian culture per se.
Like any sane person, I love Italy.

 

[bkboiler]

this is like my neighbor...we're both engineers.
He took his car in to get new tires. They said "how'd you like us to fill them with 100% nitrogen"?
He said "nah, the 78% blend is just fine with me"
the service advisor was like

 

[effeffe]

@MrPowers, could not access the link cause it's not working. Could you please send it again? Thx.

Delete the whitespace from this: https://www.themodern brewhouse.com/foam/

 

[Birrofilo]

The document by "The ****************" states that "coagulable nitrogen 20-40 mg/I" is a positive factor for foam stability. " Boiling too hard will drive coagulable nitrogen out of the wort which is a problem since it’s very foam positive. "

What is "coagulable nitrogen" in layman terms?

At first glance, one might assume that the head purging with nitrogen might help with foam stability.

 

[VikeMan]

What is "coagulable nitrogen" in layman terms?

"Nitrogen" in that context means protein/polypeptides/etc, not Nitrogen gas.

 

[Birrofilo]

"Nitrogen" in that context means protein/polypeptides/etc, not Nitrogen gas.

I see, thanks. The same source also says "Nitrogen 130 - 180 mg/l" and I was wondering what was the coagulable nitrogen.

 

[VikeMan]

I see, thanks. The same source also says "Nitrogen 130 - 180 mg/l" and I was wondering what was the coagulable nitrogen.

Look at that along with the line right above that. Together, it reads "MgSO4 Precipitable Nitrogen," which is proteins of the right size (molecular weight) that they can be precipitated by MgSO4. It doesn't mean you want them to be precipitated. I think MgSO4 precipitation of these proteins is done (in labs) in order to weigh the resulting precipitate, i.e. to determine how much was originally in the wort.

Coagulable Nitrogen is a different subset of total nitrogen, which I believe is determined by boiling to cause coagulation (and then precipitation).

There's nothing on that page that has anything to do with Nitrogen gas.

 

[ep_brew]

This discussion reminded me of a recent podcast; Beer Foam with Dr Charlie Bamforth – BeerSmith Podcast #231. Bamforth said when he was at Bass he'd add a small amount of nitrogen to the kegged beers to increase foam stability.

 

[Vale71]

This discussion reminded me of a recent podcast; Beer Foam with Dr Charlie Bamforth – BeerSmith Podcast #231. Bamforth said when he was at Bass he'd add a small amount of nitrogen to the kegged beers to increase foam stability.

And with that, Dr. Bamforth's credibility takes a further dive...

 

[Birrofilo]

Another source saying that "nitrogen-CO2 mix can help with foam stability"

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/secrets-better-beer-foam/
The proof is in the pudding and if Brulosophy is reading here, then maybe we will see some test soon

 

[twd000]

Unfortunately that's pure poppycock. They claim they're dosing the bottles to 15 ppm of N2. That would me 15 milligrams per liter of dissolved N2.
A quick calculation shows that this correspond to N2 saturation at 25°C for a partial pressure o 0.26 bar.

OK, let's set aside the fact that you have around 8 grams of CO2 per liter and only 15 milligrams of N2 and that's 500 times less N2 than CO2 so how is that going to make a difference in a foam bubble that will be made of 99.5% CO2?

Let's just apply gas laws and determine the equilibrium pressure for 15 ppm of N2 at 25°C. I'll spare you the calcs and just give you the result: 0.26 bar absolute pressure. Wait a sec, air is 78% nitrogen, at a nominal atmospheric pressure you have almost 0.8 bar N2 partial pressure. This means that simply by exposing beer to air you would get three times the amount of dissolved N2 that they claim to be actively dosing in their bottles...

So basically they claim to be dosing N2 in the bottles by actually taking away? Does that make sense to you? To me it certainly doesn't.

I must say the amount of hype and misinformation circulating on the topic of nitro serving is really astounding.

I found this article and wonder if it explains the disconnect. Your equilibrium calculations are at 25C, but they are using cryogenic nitrogen, which is something like -200C

https://www.vacuumbarrier.com/videos-articles/
" You must use cryogenic liquid nitrogen to achieve a pressurized headspace in order to get the nitrogen to dissolve into solution. "

I highly doubt that the mega-breweries are buying snake-oil based on a misunderstanding of gas physics:
" VBC has worked with large, international breweries like Guinness, Sam Adams, Miller-Coors, and others, plus small (but expanding) breweries like Sierra Nevada, Wachusett, Sebago, Genesee, Great Lakes, and many others...."

 

[Vale71]

Sure, but the beer would have to be kept at -200°C as well which is clearly impossible. A minuscule drop of liquid N2 would instantly warm up to ambient temp (its thermal capacity is really minimal compared to, say, water) and the system would reach equilibrium at ambient temp. This means either dozens and dozens of bar (=explosion) or it's all complete nonsense.

I must say such claims are not just bordering into false advertising territory, they're smack in the middle of it.

By the way nowhere does it say that the companies they mention have ever bought anything specific from the, just that they "worked" with them. If I cleaned the floor at Guinness I could make the same (worthless) claim. This is a prime example of CYA.

 

[twd000]

Sure, but the beer would have to be kept at -200°C as well which is clearly impossible. A minuscule drop of liquid N2 would instantly warm up to ambient temp (its thermal capacity is really minimal compared to, say, water) and the system would reach equilibrium at ambient temp. This means either dozens and dozens of bar (=explosion) or it's all complete nonsense.

I must say such claims are not just bordering into false advertising territory, they're smack in the middle of it.

By the way nowhere does it say that the companies they mention have ever bought anything specific from the, just that they "worked" with them. If I cleaned the floor at Guinness I could make the same (worthless) claim. This is a prime example of CYA.

So your hypothesis is that VBC have managed to dupe their clients, the largest breweries in the world, with a billions of dollars in market share, an army of PhD chemists, biologists, and process control engineers on staff, into spending tens of thousands of dollars on LN2 dosing equipment for the packaging line, that does nothing?

A little humility goes a long way in learning new information. I recommend you try it.

https://beverage-master.com/2020/05/nitrogen-infused-beers-just-the-right-amount-and-voila/
https://www.gasworld.com/cold-customers/2019886.article
"

As well as Starbucks, Chart’s liquid nitrogen dosers are used by the likes of Black Rifle Coffee, La Colombe Coffee, Califia, Oskar Blues Brewery, Left Hand Brewing, Second Self Beer Company, Vault Brewing Company, Samuel Adams (flagship brand of the Boston Beer Company), Ballast Point Brewing (Constellation Brands), Firestone Walker Brewery, Anheuser-Busch (Budweiser), Molson Coors, and Labatt Brewing.

“We provide Sam Adams the whole package of the liquid nitrogen delivery system,” Tabangay said.

“We provide them with the engineering of where to position the liquid nitrogen doser, engineering of what doser to put in the specific canning or bottling line and training for installing and starting up the doser. Every year we have been selling between 300 and 400 dosers and the majority go to craft brewers.”
"

 

[Vale71]

So your hypothesis is that VBC have managed to dupe their clients,

And your hypothesis is that the world should work in way that completely differs from what well established science tells us just because some company's marketing department says so? Please...

 

[twd000]

And your hypothesis is that the world should work in way that completely differs from what well established science tells us just because some company's marketing department says so? Please...

You should writeup a white paper with your gas calculations and send it off to MillerCoors, Sam Adams and Budweiser to explain to those rookies why the expensive nitrogen dosing systems they've been using for decades can't possibly work. They might even send you a free case of beer for saving them so much money!

 

[Vale71]

For the last time then I'm done with you and your disrespectful attitude.

The guys at MillerCoors, Sam Adams and Budweiser are using (if they're using them at all, you cannot possibly know) these systems for the purpose they were designed for. Namely:

1 - reducing TPO in canned beer
2 - increasing can stiffness in beers carbed to low level to reduce damage during transportation

Now these clowns are, entirely on their own, making ridiculous claims that nitrogen is somehow magically making beer better and gullible people are rushing off to buy any beer that has NITRO on the label. You really think that their customers are going to publicly refute those claims because they're tired of earning more money? Seriously?

 

[twd000]

I've run into this situation at work before. A very smart person in an adjacent technical field gets introduced to a new idea that doesn't mesh with their theoretical knowledge. Instead of listening with an open mind to the experts with years of experience, they continue digging themselves into a hole telling them how it CAN'T POSSIBLY WORK the way that it clearly does, and is working, as has worked for years. Usually there is some critical detail or nuance or assumption that they're missing, but rather than allow themselves to learn, they insist on telling them why they're wrong. When the know-it-all throws up their hands and leaves the meeting, the pros roll their eyes and get back to work.

 

[monkeymath]

Deleted.

 

[day_trippr]

All I know is I have always found Left Hand Milk Stout Nitro in a bottle a disappointing experience.
They say "pour hard", but it still ends up dull from the jump.

Otoh, I've had Young's Double Chocolate Stout in both a widget can and on tap - the former is pretty good for canned, but the latter was sublime, which immediately sent me off to come up with something at least that good (this was ~15 years ago - and I totally killed it ).

So there's "nitro" and there's "nitro", and the two may not meet...

Cheers!

 

[MHBT]

Duvel cannot be brewed at home, i dont care what anyone says, first person who gives me a homebrew even in the same stratosphere as duvel i will give you 100 bucks, its not gonna happen so that 100 is safe in my bank

 

[MaxStout]

Duvel cannot be brewed at home, i dont care what anyone says, first person who gives me a homebrew even in the same stratosphere as duvel i will give you 100 bucks, its not gonna happen so that 100 is safe in my bank

I've tried a few times and it didn't come close, neither in flavor nor head. I managed to make a decent Belgian strong ale each time, and they were certainly enjoyable, but a Duvel clone it was not.

I have resigned myself to just buying Duvel as a treat.

 

[MHBT]

I've tried a few times and it didn't come close, neither in flavor nor head. I managed to make a decent Belgian strong ale each time, and they were certainly enjoyable, but a Duvel clone it was not.

I have resigned myself to just buying Duvel as a treat.

Exactly can make a nice bgs but not duvel, i tried for 15 years they have a proprietary recipe/ process much like coca cola it’s impossible at home and i love how people say “ its easy just pils and sugar and styrians and saaz” no its not that simple

 

[dmtaylor]

My first thought was flaked barley, but then I read the rest of the thread. I'm going to have to go and read the links. Dave, what yeast are you using as I also love that beer.

I too would be curious what yeasts people are recommending for this beer. In a different thread, @MattyHBT mentioned that perhaps neither WLP570 or Wyeast 1388 are hitting the mark. My recommendation to try next would be WLP400, which gives a lot of pear and pepper when I've used it for beers other than witbier. Thoughts? Could we be using the wrong yeast?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...rong-besides-1388-or-570.701033/#post-9283141