My first time using a yeast cake

[lx302]

Well,
I bottled my English Mild this morning, leaving a small amount of beer covering the yeast cake in the primary. While I was bottling, a new batch of Mild was boiling on the stove. (extract with steeping grains) I went outside to get some ice and snow and throw it into my laundry sink, and cooled down the wort and pitched into the primary. I did remove the ring of Krausen at the top of the primary with some paper towels.
I await fermentation to take place and will try this again on my Wicked Ale in 2 weeks.
Just thought I'd let you know how easy it was if anyone was thinking of doing it.

 

[fratermus]

I just reused my first cake, 3068 weizen yeast that had been under apple juce for 2mos. It moved slower than I thought it would at first* but gained speed and has been blooping 2x/second for the last few days.

I didn't remove any Krausen (yes, apfelwein can leave Krausen with beer yeasts), just sanitized the opening and racked fresh juice into it.


FraterMus
* probably because of the extended primary.

 

[Andreas]

Just thought I'd let you know how easy it was if anyone was thinking of doing it.

I hope this isn't a stupid question, but are you saying that you simply added the chilled wort to the previously used primary, in order to use the existing yeast culture?
I'll be brewing lagers all winter, and am on my 2nd one (a rye lager). It's in the primary now, and I plan to rack it to secondary in about 2 or 3 days. I can't imagine re-using the primary without sanitizing due to the crud at the top. I'm wondering if I could pour out the yeast cake into a 1 gallon carboy, then pitch it into a fresh primary full of chilled lager wort.
Thanks for your patience,
Andy

 

[nosmatt]

I hope this isn't a stupid question, but are you saying that you simply added the chilled wort to the previously used primary, in order to use the existing yeast culture?
I'll be brewing lagers all winter, and am on my 2nd one (a rye lager). It's in the primary now, and I plan to rack it to secondary in about 2 or 3 days. I can't imagine re-using the primary without sanitizing due to the crud at the top. I'm wondering if I could pour out the yeast cake into a 1 gallon carboy, then pitch it into a fresh primary full of chilled lager wort.
Thanks for your patience,
Andy

absolutely.
welcome aboard btw, 1st post.

if your original sanitation practices were good, do not worry about the krausen ring at the top.
i have yet to do this, but only because i rarely bottle when i brew. not to mention, my last 5-6 brews were all nottingham, which i get for well under a 2 bucks a pack, no real $$ savings.

 

[barefootbrewer]

I've got a related question. When you reuse a yeast cake, is it necessary to aerate the wort? If so, do you just aerate in the primary after you've added the wort?

 

[Moonshae]

I've got a related question. When you reuse a yeast cake, is it necessary to aerate the wort? If so, do you just aerate in the primary after you've added the wort?

You still need to aerate the wort. If you pour from your kettle into the bucket, the splashing should be sufficient. If you use a carboy, give it a brisk stir in the kettle before transferring it to the carboy.

 

[nosmatt]

I've got a related question. When you reuse a yeast cake, is it necessary to aerate the wort? If so, do you just aerate in the primary after you've added the wort?

absolutely. one thing has nothing to do with the other.

a collander, the mesh stainless style works very well for aeration btw. you will have foam over the top of the bucket! if you use a carboy, well then, you will figger it out i dont use em.

 

[barefootbrewer]

I use carboys and an aeration stone. My question was wondering if it needed air at all since the yeast had already switched to the anaerobic phase during the first go-around. I appreciate the quick answers.

Thanks!

 

[lx302]

Update: I used a primary plastic bucket and shook up the water in the spring water bottles before adding to the bucket and yeast and stirred the wort real good once everything was in the primary. I had activity on the air lock within 3 hours. I consider my sanitiation to be very good.
I read you didn't need to remove the krausen, but I did as a precaution.
I've read about this technique on this forum and it all made perfect sense.
I even asked the guys at the LHBS and they say they use the same technique, it's just one of the things they usually don't tell their customers. (They want to sell yeast and make money.) So if your brewing the same or similar type of beer in the time frame your first batch is done and using the same yeast, why not?
Yes I only really saved $7 from not buying another packet of liquid yeast, but it saved some time not having to wait 3 plus hours for the yeast to inoculate, plus fermentation should be better, due to a higher initial yeast count.

I wouldn't think you needed an airstone if you were doing this with a carboy, but it couldn't hurt.

 

[fratermus]

I hope this isn't a stupid question, but are you saying that you simply added the chilled wort to the previously used primary, in order to use the existing yeast culture?
... I can't imagine re-using the primary without sanitizing due to the crud at the top. I'm wondering if I could pour out the yeast cake into a 1 gallon carboy, then pitch it into a fresh primary full of chilled lager wort.

Remember that gross-looking does not equal contaminated. The crud at the top is not a bacteria farm; it is yeast and proteins and resins, etc.

Assuming the first batch was well sanitized one might be more likely to introduce contamination by moving the yeast cake around from container to container than by reusing the original.

Now, one might argue that there is a benefit to getting the yeast away the krausen and trub but it's not an argument based on sanitation.

 

[bamadoh]

I've got a related question. When you reuse a yeast cake, is it necessary to aerate the wort? If so, do you just aerate in the primary after you've added the wort?

I am still a newb with only six batches under my belt, but it was my understanding that aeration of the wort was primarily a benefit for the yeast's reproduction in order to get a sufficient cell count for fermentation without undue strain to the little buggers. Once fermentation starts the oxygen isn't really needed. Since your pitching onto a yeast cake with probably more yeast cells than you need for fementation I thought aeration would not be necessary.

 

[missing link]

I wish I could remember the source but I believe I read that pouring the yeast into a clear container, adding budweiser and stirring will wash the yeast. The unwanted gunk and bad yeast settle out first, then the good yeast on top making it possible to first pour off the budweiser, then pour the good yeast into another sanitized container.

I'm sure if you were to search for yeast washing - a better description would appear.

Linc

 

[IrregularPulse]

I am still a newb with only six batches under my belt, but it was my understanding that aeration of the wort was primarily a benefit for the yeast's reproduction in order to get a sufficient cell count for fermentation without undue strain to the little buggers. Once fermentation starts the oxygen isn't really needed. Since your pitching onto a yeast cake with probably more yeast cells than you need for fementation I thought aeration would not be necessary.

I am in no way an expert as I have never used a yeast cake. I plan to with the 2 batches I have fermenting right now. But this makes sense to me!

I wish I could remember the source but I believe I read that pouring the yeast into a clear container, adding budweiser and stirring will wash the yeast. The unwanted gunk and bad yeast settle out first, then the good yeast on top making it possible to first pour off the budweiser, then pour the good yeast into another sanitized container.

I'm sure if you were to search for yeast washing - a better description would appear.

Linc

Check out the Yeast Washing Tutorial by Bernie Brewer from the Stickies. Very good.

 

[barefootbrewer]

I am still a newb with only six batches under my belt, but it was my understanding that aeration of the wort was primarily a benefit for the yeast's reproduction in order to get a sufficient cell count for fermentation without undue strain to the little buggers. Once fermentation starts the oxygen isn't really needed. Since your pitching onto a yeast cake with probably more yeast cells than you need for fementation I thought aeration would not be necessary.

That was really my question. Anyone have experience with this? I know that introducing oxygen when not necessary isn't a good thing.

Thanks

 

[brown_dog_us]

I've pitched on top of a lot of cakes and I always shake the carboy to get some oxygen back in there. I think the yeast will have to reproduce some before kicking over to eating the sugars. Also, I don't see a downside to the oxygen prior to fermentation.

 

[Bob]

Knocking out onto a yeast cake is always overpitching. Best practice is to pitch a measured amount of yeast.

See the Wiki entry on the subject.

Cheers!

Bob

 

[humann_brewing]

I am going to wash some yeast and then re-use it in the same day. I figure a pint or 2 of solid yeast slurry will hopefully be enough for a 1.1 RIS

 

[humann_brewing]

Can I was some of the yeast leftover from a batch and also leave some in the fermentor to dump another batch on?

How much of the trub would be yeast and how much is other remnants? In other words, how much should I be leaving if I am putting a 1.1 OG stout on top of it?

 

[GAbrewer]

I tried pitching onto a yeast cake recently, a little over a month ago with two batches I was making. The original batch was an American Pale Ale using Danstar Nottingham ale yeast. The beer I pitched onto the cake from that batch was an English Brown. Both were Brewer's Best kits and came with packs of Nottingham, so it seemed like a good experiment. What I have found is that the English Brown turned out well, but it has a bit more hoppiness than I expected. I'm thinking maybe hop oils from the original batch got mixed in with the new one. Has anybody else had a similar experience? The English Brown has only been bottled about 2 weeks, so it could probably stand a bit more conditioning time as well.

 

[celtic_dude]

Does reusing a yeast cake make for a better yeast?

 

[RBlagojevich]

I was listening to the Jamil Show today and they were talking about how this is definitely NOT a good idea. A lot of the flavors that come from yeasts are produced during the growing and reproduction phase of their life cycle. If you just pitch onto a yeast cake, they're in such high numbers that they don't have to reproduce much, and all those flavors are lost.

 

[Bob]

Bing! That's the main reason why it's such a terrible idea.

It will never cease to amaze me the brewers who will agonize over whether to add 1 oz of some esoteric ingredient to their grists or hops schedules, or meticulously plan water usage and mash procedure, will then just toss that wort onto a yeast cake in a filthy fermenter.

I really just can't understand why otherwise conscientious brewers can't be bothered to engage in yeast management. I can only presume it's because they haven't yet been informed of proper procedure.

Celtic Dude: It does not. Quite the contrary.

Humann Brewing and GABrewer - Your questions are related. First, there is no way to accurately predict or estimate the amount of non-yeast matter in the slurry. You just have to eyeball it and know what good yeast looks, smells and tastes like when you harvest it.

The amount of trub left in the cake/slurry can have a significant impact on the next beer inoculated with that yeast. This is something you have to look at with an experienced eye and common sense: You don't want to pitch a Blonde Ale with yeast from your Oatmeal Stout, for fear of color being added, and you don't want to pitch a slurry with lots of hops particulate matter into a Scottish Ale.

You dig?

Bob

 

[pete_hickey]

I was listening to the Jamil Show today and they were talking about how this is definitely NOT a good idea. A lot of the flavors that come from yeasts are produced during the growing and reproduction phase of their life cycle. If you just pitch onto a yeast cake, they're in such high numbers that they don't have to reproduce much, and all those flavors are lost.

I do that very often, and that has not been my experience, however it tends to be lagers that I do this with. I usually use dry yeast with ales (S-04, US-56) and don't bother trying to re-use the yeast.

I also plan my brewing so that I go from lighter to heavier. First time will be a pilsner, next might be an oktoberfest, and the third a bock.

 

[fratermus]

It will never cease to amaze me the brewers who will agonize over whether to add 1 oz of some esoteric ingredient to their grists or hops schedules, or meticulously plan water usage and mash procedure, will then just toss that wort onto a yeast cake in a filthy fermenter.

Overpitching and flavor transfer from trub are valid concerns. I think that the use of the word "filthy", however, may mislead newb onlookers into believing your concerns are about sanitation.

 

[Bob]

Frankly, Mr Maus, my concerns include sanitation. Simply, a thing which looks dirty is dirty. In other words, I deliberately intend to lead newb onlookers down the path of cleanliness. Cleanliness is not misleading; it's good brewing practice.

Yes, I know many brewers have used the above-referenced method without contamination. It was forcefully impressed upon me in my apprenticeship, however, that the only way to excellent beer every single time is to keep one's equipment spotlessly clean. I see no reason to throw that over in the interest of saving time and/or effort.

I mean to say, really; how long does it take to harvest the yeast and clean the fermenter? Ten minutes? I can do it in five. Even a newb has the gear to successfully harvest yeast today to pitch tomorrow; every kitchen has the hardware, and sanitizer is a staple in any home brewery. All it takes is the will to apply good practices.

In a commercial setting, where time is money, if you suggest a brewer knock out into an uncleaned fermenter, you'd be laughed out of the brewery. Tell me, we homebrewers, who can take the time and effort to make our beer the best it can possibly be, why on earth are we suggesting the skipping of steps which are part and parcel of good, wise brewing practice? What is saved by skipping steps? Where's the pressure?

That's what I meant in your quote of my writing. It boggles the mind that the same person who painstakingly applies good brewing practice in every other respect will just skip harvesting and cleaning the fermenter when they take no time and little effort to perform.

Respectfully,

Bob

 

[CreeDakota]

People mainly brew for fun. Fun looks different to many different people. On occasion I am as exacting as I know how to be, sometimes I just want to chill and throw it all in a bucket. Both ways I make beer.

I have personally never reused yeast, but from the discussion here I think many people dont harvest and wash their yeast becuase they dont know how while everyone knows how to pour fresh wort on top of a yeast sediment. Havesting your yeast sounds like a safer technique to assure the quality of your beer, but both ways make beer.

Thats the power of yeast!

 

[lx302]

Knocking out onto a yeast cake is always overpitching. Best practice is to pitch a measured amount of yeast.

See the Wiki entry on the subject.

Cheers!

Bob

Bob,

I read the Wiki article. So it stated using a yeast cake is overpitching.
OK, so if I use the example in the article 228ml of slurry would be an average amount used for a mid specific gravity brew. That equals to about 7.7 oz of slurry or 1 cup,taken from the primary and then you can pitch that into your wort using a clean primary.
So to clarify, this should be just as effective as a yeast starter and not as bad as using the full yeast cake?

 

[coeceo]

I have been wanting to do this myself and after a bit of HomeBrewTalk reading I tried it last night.

I made 2.5 gallons of Nut Brown Ale wort and crash cooled it in an ice bath. I then added 2.5 gallons of room temp spring water to the brew pot, its in one of those big jugs with the spout so it drained in kinda slow but the process itself helped to really get some air into the wort.

I siphoned a cream ale from my primary bucket into a secondary and then siphoned the Nut Brown into the primary. This started bubbling within maybe 8 hours or less (did it around 10 PM and was bubbling hard in the morning). I'll let you know in March if I get any off flavors, but the Nut Brown will probably hide them anyways.

What NQ3X is saying about yeast production and the flavors it creates makes sense, but wouldn't that also put a lot more emphasis on your yeast starters as a potential for off favors, which in my opinion are often over looked.

 

[craigd]

My guess is that you are MORE likely to create a sanitation issue with yeast washing that just pitching on the cake due to increased handling, but not significantly so with good procedures. I would also think that over pitching is more relevant in some styles than others. If you are using a pretty neutral yeast it probably won't be as big of a deal and may help attenuation (assuming you want that) but then again if you want neutral yeast you could just pitch a $1 dry yeast so you don't save much.

Personally I'd do the yeast washing if I wanted to reuse because I wouldn't have the heart to throw my new wort on that mess. I have been eying that yeast bank thread...

 

[humann_brewing]

The argument that just dumping the wort onto the yeast cake causes off flavors is a good argument. But if you are making the same beer or something close I don't see much of a problem unless it is way over pitched.

From what I have read too is that you need to put a higher gravity beer on top of whatever the yeast just fermented, is this correct?

I have a 1.0645 Porter that I want to dump a 1.1 Russian Imperial Stout onto. I think that I will wash the yeast anyways just because I don't want to take up extra room in the primary with extra trub.

I just think you wouldn't want to go from a 1.1 RIS to a 1.040 Light Ale.