My first Lambic Blend Question - help?

[stompbox]

I brewed 11 gallons of lambic on 2/14/14 and I used ECY 20 as well as a few dregs here and there. The batch took off quickly and fermented swimmingly.

Fast Forward to Yesterday: Yesterday, I brewed 11 more gallons of lambic and I:
- Transferred 7 gallons of the old into a secondary, added 4 gallons of the new lambic, and finally added 10 pounds of raspberries.

- I racked over 7 gallons of the new lambic atop of 4 gallons of the old lambic in the primary.

30+ hours later, I have no signs of fermentation. I thought there would be PLENTY of yeasts available in each of the fermenters that it would take off immediately. 30+ hours later, nothing. No bubbling, no krausen, nothing in either one.

Any idea what is going on? Should I be concerned? Find/add new sour yeast and add it?

When I opened the primary to transfer the old batch, it smelled tart and there was huge bubbles/clouds of krausen pellicle material on top so I know the original batch fermented well.

 

[lowtones84]

I've only brewed one lambic, and have yet to taste it. But my guess would be that it will be just fine, and needs a little time. I'm positive it will ferment unless you pasteurized it or something

Edit: The sacc might be dead, or taking a long time to wake up. They've been in there for five months after all. I still wouldn't bet on them being dead, but maybe...

 

[stompbox]

I've only brewed one lambic, and have yet to taste it. But my guess would be that it will be just fine, and needs a little time. I'm positive it will ferment unless you pasteurized it or something

Edit: The sacc might be dead, or taking a long time to wake up. They've been in there for five months after all. I still wouldn't bet on them being dead, but maybe...

First sour batch..... Clue me in on what sacc being dead is....

 

[Xpertskir]

It's fine.

Not a lot of viable yeast(sacc or Brett) left after 5 months and pedio/lacto take longer to get going.

Plus the ECY sour blends have taken a good while to get going fresh, IME.


Give it more time and all will be well.

 

[Bokker]

Throw in a small bottle of gueuze, well shaken to get everything out. This works for me.

 

[dantheman13]

The Sacch is dead, but the Brett isn't. I'd bet money on a visible Brett fermentation happening between 4 and 7 days.

 

[stompbox]

Throw in a small bottle of gueuze, well shaken to get everything out. This works for me.

I am confused at how that is different than having 4 or 7 gallons of old lambic in each container.

The Sacch is dead, but the Brett isn't. I'd bet money on a visible Brett fermentation happening between 4 and 7 days.

I did some searching, what I am finding is that SACC is the main ingredient that converts the sugars to alcohol. If SACC is dead, that is no good right? Does no Sacc mean it will no longer be a Lambic?

I am confused by all this b/c everything i have read suggests it is no issue to rack a beer ontop of an old sour yeast cake.

 

[dantheman13]

I am confused at how that is different than having 4 or 7 gallons of old lambic in each container.



I did some searching, what I am finding is that SACC is the main ingredient that converts the sugars to alcohol. If SACC is dead, that is no good right? Does no Sacc mean it will no longer be a Lambic?

I am confused by all this b/c everything i have read suggests it is no issue to rack a beer ontop of an old sour yeast cake.

The Brett will convert the sugars too, it just sometimes takes a longer time to get started than Sacch does (this might be strain dependent). If you don't get any activity after 7 days, then you can start to worry. Since you are blending wort into a low pH and alcoholic environment, you don't need to worry about mold and infection.

If it makes you feel better though, feel free to pitch new Sacch. New Sacch will create good things like esters and glycerol, and is generally a good approach. This creates more trub, but if you are not planning on Soleraing the fermenter for years to come that shouldn't be cause for concern.

You can go either way.

 

[masonsjax]

Sacc is brewers yeast. Brett will also make alcohol, as will some bacteria. If you don't feed the yeast with fresh wort, they eventually die and are consumed by the bugs. If you reuse that cake, you'll end up with a beer more sour than the first, which isn't a bad thing. If you want a more balanced sour, you can add some more sacc. Belgian strains are a popular choice because they leave behind flavor compounds that brett can convert to other desirable esters.

 

[stompbox]

Aghhhh.... Sacc = brewers yeast. Did not know that. Thanks!

That adds one more question then (sorry). I forgot to mention, with my original batch i not only pitched ECY20 but also threw in like a half packet of S05. I am confused how those cells could be dead from the standpoint of it being a low al‰ beer and you can use dregs from unfiltered beer to propagate new yeast (like a bottle of 2 hearted). What kills them, the brett? The acidity of a sour?

 

[roink]

The acidity and the lack of nutrition kills the Sacc.

It is true that you can propagate new yeast from unfiltered beer and you could probably also propagate yeast from your lambic. But as most of the yeast is dead the low number of living yeast takes some time to propagate enough to show visible fermentation.

As mentioned earlier, I would wait some more time, maybe a week or so, and if no fermentation activity is visible you could pitch some US-05 or any other brewers yeast to avoid a too sour beer.

 

[stompbox]

Thanks guys, it makes sense to me now. I've been brewing ales for a long time, sours are a learning curve for me right now. I should get a good book on it.

 

[riceral]

...sours are a learning curve for me right now. I should get a good book on it.

Sours are a learning curve for me too.

I recommend this book:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1938469119/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[MileHighBrewer]

You do not have 7 gallons of "old lambic" you have 7 gallons of probably a year of being YOUNG lambic. Gueuze is even more distance from what you have....by many years.

Sours are a patience game, we talk in half year primary, years of bulk aging, years or bottle conditioning....not weeks or even months.

Leave it alone. Pick up that book linked above, ask questions, Google your heart out. But mostly, leave it alone

 

[stompbox]

The Sacch is dead, but the Brett isn't. I'd bet money on a visible Brett fermentation happening between 4 and 7 days.

Dead on, 4 days later it was bubbling away. Thanks everyone!

 

[IronsGateBrewery]

+1 on american sours book by Michael Tonsmeire tons of great info

 

[stompbox]

Ordered. Thanks!