my first 3 ag taste really bad

[jamissr]

New to AG brewing, ive had success with partial mash recipes with the BIAB method, made 3 or 4 brews that all tasted fantastic, so i decided to switch over to AG doing biab as well. The first one was a dunkel, and it just tasted... dirty? hard to describe, but has a bad taste and aftertaste. thought maybe i fermented too high, so i built a swamp cooler, made the wpa recipe on this site, (gumballhead clone). I had previously made this as partial and loved it, however this time, same thing, really dirty taste. Made an IPA in the meantime, and its the same thing.

The only thing i can think of is that i was getting too much grain in the boil. Having so much grain in the mash pot with a bag was really stretching the limits of my 9gal pot. I ended up getting a ton of trub in all 3 fermenters, and at least for the IPA there was a ridiculous amount (5 or 6 inches but alot of it was hops).

All three were made over a three week period so i really didnt have a chance to taste the first until the last was already fermenting, so ive pretty much ruined the three beers. (im picky and they really taste bad imo). pretty sure no infections, im a stickler for sanatization and nothing visible in the fermenters even after three weeks.

So i made a mashtun out of a cooler and fittings and the wort of my last two batches look much cleaner than the previous 3. I still have a week to go before i can keg the first one, but im curious, can having alot of grain the boil pot create this dirty flavor? the only other thing i can think of that i have changed is i bought a mill when i started doing AG and so maybe im crushing too fine? either grain in the boil or too fine of a crush would create an astringent flavor, not sure what that flavor would be, but dirty? aftertaste?

Should know in a week or so if these next two turn out well, hopfully they taste good and i know the mashtun fixed the issue, if not, what else could cause it?

tl:dr, can too much grain in the boil cause a dirty taste and after taste?

thanks!

 

[cmybeer]

Do either of these resemble "dirty"?

Astringent

Tastes/Smells Like:
Tart, vinegary, tannin, drying, puckering sensation, may feel powdery or metallic in the
mouth, like sucking on a grape skin or a tea bag
Possible Causes:
Astringency can be caused by many different factors. Polyphenols or tannins are the
number one cause of such flavors. Tannins are found in the skins or husks of the
grain as well as in the skin of fruit. Steeping grain for too long or grain that has been
excessively milled or crushed can release tannins. When mashing, if the pH exceeds
5.2 – 5.6, astringent flavors can be produced. Over-hopping can also lend a hand in
creating astringent qualities.
How to Avoid:
Avoid grain that has been “over-milled”. Grain should be cracked open but not crushed
or shredded. When sparging, pay close attention to the temperature and the amount
of the water used. When steeping grains, be sure to take them out before the water
gets to a boil. Fruits should never be boiled in the wort; instead, they can be added to
the fermenter or to water that is hot but not boiling for 15-30 minutes. Make sure that
the amount and varieties of hops used are the correct types for the style of beer.

Husky/Grainy

Tastes/Smells Like:
Raw grain, dry, flavors comparable to astringency from tannins and/or oxidization
Possible Causes:
Over milled grain can cause husky, grainy off flavors. Highly toasted malts can also
contribute to husky, grainy qualities. These flavors are most common in all-grain
brews due to the amount of grain being used and the need to mash and sparge.
How to Avoid:
Following the same precautions to avoid astringency should help with any grainy or
husky flavors. Avoid grain that has been shredded or crushed. When using homemade
toasted grains, allow them to age for 1-2 weeks after milling to allow harsh aromas and
flavors to dissipate. Cold conditioning a husky or grainy tasting beer will usually help
the off flavors to fall out of suspension.

 

[Yooper]

What type of water are you using? Maybe your water is alkaline?

 

[jamissr]

I thought the water as well, but it would be odd that my PG recipes came out good but not AG if it were the water causing the issue. I appreciate the thought though and will check into it.

"When steeping grains, be sure to take them out before the water
gets to a boil"
I am thinking this is the issue, im just having a hard time describing the off flavor im getting except undrinkable... not a good description i know. maybe i need to taste some grain and then the beer close to each other and see if thats what the taste is.

Thanks!

 

[downtown3641]

Grains in the boil could draw some tannins. I don't know if I would describe it as dirty, though. If the problem is gone with the batches done in the mash tun, you'll have an answer.

 

[Northcalais40]

Sometimes a few weeks will improve a beer's flavor. Not all the time. Don't dump it yet.

 

[mike20793]

Water definitely affects the mash process. You can always get a water test done. Could be a PH problem.

 

[jamissr]

Thanks. Looked at my water online and the report did not talk about ph at all, I'm not too worried about the water only because I have had a few successful brews with partial mash methods.

Just did a fg check and went ahead and tasted the most recent beer in my fermenter that I made with the mlt instead of biab and it tastes great. Pretty sure it was too much grain in the kettle. Thanks again for the replies.

 

[ShamelessDog]

With extract or partial mash recipes you do not have to worry about the PH because the extract manufacturer has already done so. AG is a different story, but i doubt this would have too much to do with your off flavors. If your water tastes ok then it should be fine for brewing. The ideal mash PH is 5.2 and this measurement should be taken directly after dough in. Also if you are trying to adjust the mash PH it should be done immediately because this adjustment will affect the enzymatic activity (about 10 minutes is my usual adjustment period for water temp and PH)

That being said if your flavors are not astringent (perfect explanation in post 2, is that from Brew Chem 101 ?) I would most likely say it is a result of inconsistent mash temps or fermentation temps. What is your ferm. temp control like? hopefully this insulated cooler will help you with keeping a solid mash temp.

Good luck and happy brewing

P.S. I can't count the number of beers I screwed up thus far! Brew Chem 101 book, off flavors chapter is my advice. May help you narrow it down better.

 

[jamissr]

Thanks, I will check my water Ph, thanks to everyone for pointing to it, and thanks ShamelessDog for the explanation of why AG is affected but not PG. Its easy and cheap enough to do, i saw some $5 kits recently at an lhbs and i know fish stores carry kits as well.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

You mentioned a lot of grain and trub in your brew pot. What material are you using for your bag? I have done 3 AG recipies BIAB and had no noticible grains in the brew pot.

 

[jamissr]

i was using a smaller bag that i had bought at my local LHBS. It worked really well for PG when doing ~8lbs of grain or less, but just wasnt the right thing for larger brews and didnt fit over the entire pot i had moved up to.

After reading up a bit i should have made my own, that way i could have probably had better material and the right size for the equipment i had upgraded to. Im happy with my MLT though, so i think ill stick with it, plus i put a decent bit of money into it, wife would kill me if i quit using it now.

I was not putting down BIAB in any way, it served me really well for the few PG brews i did, and if i had put the time into upgrading the bag i was using, it probably would have still worked just fine for me with AG. As it is though i tended to be really messy when straining it, and its a pain to clean off the stove every brew. Much easier for me to do all of the mashing on the deck, and less time actually spent working in front of the beer means more time with the wife and kids. now i just open a drain and walk away for a few minutes rather than straining out a 14-20lb bag of wet sticky grain.