My dry-cider-fu is weak. Suggestions?

[Ike]

SO, I've been making very well-received, but very sweet, ciders for a few years now. The recipe is pretty much the same one everyone else seems to use, and had its roots in the now-famous "caramel apple cider" thread here on HBT:

5 gallons store-bought juice;
2 pounds light brown sugar;
4 tsp pectic enzyme;
Pinch of nutrient;
One sachet activated dry yeast (virtually always S-04 or Notty)
(Ferment 60 days at 65degF, transfer to the "aging closet" at 68-75 degF for a month or so more)

Once fermented and clear, I'll backsweeten with FAJC and/or whole juices to get the desired flavor and level of sweetness. The cider as fermented ends up around 7.5-8% ABV, after sweetening and flavoring with whole juice it usually ends up around 6%.

Thing is, up until recently, my peeps have overwhelmingly preferred VERY SWEET cider. I'm finally starting to get requests for dryer varieties; unfortunately, using the above recipe and simply using less in the backsweetening phase seems to yield a less-than-ideal result.

I read on another thread here that folks seem to get tastier dry ciders at lower ABV, others seem to feel higher ABV is less of an issue given longer aging times. For me though, the issue isn't that it tastes "hot," it's just that it doesn't have a very good finish. The initial flavor is just fine, but where the backsweetening and flavoring provides a good finish in my normal stuff, the dryer varieties just die on the tongue with a watery finish.

So, how do you make your dry cider "pop?" By all means, I'll try a couple of lower ABV batches to see if I can make that work, but would love to hear other suggestions.

Thanks in advance, HBT rocks! <-- mugs of cider

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'd start by eliminating the added sugar. It substantially weakens the flavor.

Use fresh-pressed unfiltered apple juice. Or at least try a different brand or something. The juice matters. A lot.

Prevent oxidation. Manage headspace. Consider adding sulfites.

Baby the fermentation. Correct temperature (lower is better), nutrients, aeration.

Manage the acidity. 6.0-7.5 g/L malic acid is good for dry sparkling cider with low tannins.

Consider a different yeast. Everyone has a different favorite. Wine yeasts or cider yeasts are your best bet.

Cheers

 

[S-Met]

This is all opinion... and yes, I use store juice for many of my ciders.

Store juice is meant for drinking not fermenting, meaning that its blend is targeted at a non-fermented flavor. Making a sweet (back-sweetened) cider is like making wine-coolers. Nothing wrong with it, but the back-sweetening hides the inherent flaws with the juice and/or fermentation. The juice has the sweet apple profile but lacks the bitter and sharpe flavors that add depth that comes from cider varietals and the tannins from the skins.

Some use strong brewed black tea to add in tannins. I add juice and zest from 3-4 limes to add some bitters. I'd think adding a couple whole smashed apples could help as well, but haven't tried.

I second cutting out the added sugar. It adds abv but takes away from flavor. You may consider adding malic bacteria to start malo-lactic conversion to bring back some mouth-feel.

 

[dmf38]

I think S04 is fine for the yeast. And I would add some crabapple juice to make the flavor pop. I would eliminate the added sugar also.

 

[Ike]

Thanks to all for the replies! Clearly, my pipeline for "test projects" has now a bit more robust.

 

[tmendick]

Fully agree with all above about no added sugar needed.
I wouldn't do anything with sulphites.

Consider more expressive yeasts, I've had really good luck with S04, but I really love WLP644 (Sacc Trois), Belle Saison, or WLP775 (English Cider).
I've received several medals for dry cider with WLP775 or WLP644.

I would also recommend "staggered nutrient" additions, add a pinch of nutrient at yeast pitch as well as every other day for the first week.

 

[Chalkyt]

Interesting comment by S-Met re using brewed black tea. I was thinking along those lines for this Fall's cider (March-May here in Oz), as well as or instead of crab apples (I should get enough from my 3 Y.O. tree this year). Some of my early season ciders (now about 5 months old) are a bit tart.

Anyone have any thoughts on how much black tea per gallon? I was just going to "suck it and see"... but that can lead to "whoops, too much!"

 

[Christopher J Powell]

I have used 2 tea bags per gallon. With about with about 2 cups of water. Boil then cool before adding. You can also buy powdered tannin on amazon. Although you need to be careful about your measurements.

 

[papz]

Adding oatmeal is sometimes used in beer brewing to add mouthfeel. I'm sue it could do the same for cider. Just something you might want to play around with.

 

[S-Met]

A forum search for black tea suggests 1 bag per gal of cid

I have used 2 tea bags per gallon. With about with about 2 cups of water. Boil then cool before adding. You can also buy powdered tannin on amazon. Although you need to be careful about your measurements.

Longer boil and steeping times draw more bitter and astringent flavors. Proportions and active compounds are different, but concept is the ae as hops in beer.

I've heard to use between 1-2 bags per 1gal of cider, 1-2 quarts of water and steep times from 10 min to leave the bags in 24 hrs.

I've also heard some add to primary, while others use in secondary to reduce headspace.

 

[Chalkyt]

Sounds good... at least its a start. Any strong views on when to add it? My gut feel is after primary or to blend at bottling time, but I don't really know.

Sorry if we have hijacked Ike's OP but hopefully it has added something also.

 

[canehdianman]

I'd start by eliminating the added sugar. It substantially weakens the flavor.

Use fresh-pressed unfiltered apple juice. Or at least try a different brand or something. The juice matters. A lot.

Prevent oxidation. Manage headspace. Consider adding sulfites.

Baby the fermentation. Correct temperature (lower is better), nutrients, aeration.

Manage the acidity. 6.0-7.5 g/L malic acid is good for dry sparkling cider with low tannins.

Consider a different yeast. Everyone has a different favorite. Wine yeasts or cider yeasts are your best bet.

Cheers

Are you sure about this? I've added malic acid to a couple of ciders I made using Sun-rype apple juice and I ended up adding about 1 tsp to an entire 20L keg to bring the acidity up. I'm not sure how much that weights, but it is a LOT less than 120g (which is what 6 g/L works out to in 20L).

I ended up making a few taste testers and added different amounts of malic acid to each of them until I found what I wanted. It wasn't even close to 120g.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Are you sure about this? I've added malic acid to a couple of ciders I made using Sun-rype apple juice and I ended up adding about 1 tsp to an entire 20L keg to bring the acidity up. I'm not sure how much that weights, but it is a LOT less than 120g (which is what 6 g/L works out to in 20L).

I ended up making a few taste testers and added different amounts of malic acid to each of them until I found what I wanted. It wasn't even close to 120g.

Sorry, my post wasn't clear.
Apple juice already contains malic acid. 6-7.5 g/L is a good target for the total amount (TA = Titratable Acidity).
Example: if the juice has 5.0g/L you would add 1.0-2.5g/L.

You can solely adjust acidity by taste.
-or-
You can measure the amount of acid in the juice, which allows you more confidence in the amount you need to add and it's much easier to maintain consistency between batches.

 

[canehdianman]

Sorry, my post wasn't clear.
Apple juice already contains malic acid. 6-7.5 g/L is a good target for the total amount (TA = Titratable Acidity).
Example: if the juice has 5.0g/L you would add 1.0-2.5g/L.

You can solely adjust acidity by taste.
-or-
You can measure the amount of acid in the juice, which allows you more confidence in the amount you need to add and it's much easier to maintain consistency between batches.

That makes a lot more sense. Calculating TA is a little beyond me, so I stuck with the taste test. Knowing what TA I like would make it pretty easy to standardize though, interesting.

At least now, hopefully no one will make cider so acidic that it eats through their pint glass.

 

[sgreene820]

SO, I've been making very well-received, but very sweet, ciders for a few years now. The recipe is pretty much the same one everyone else seems to use, and had its roots in the now-famous "caramel apple cider" thread here on HBT:

5 gallons store-bought juice;
2 pounds light brown sugar;
4 tsp pectic enzyme;
Pinch of nutrient;
One sachet activated dry yeast (virtually always S-04 or Notty)
(Ferment 60 days at 65degF, transfer to the "aging closet" at 68-75 degF for a month or so more)

Once fermented and clear, I'll backsweeten with FAJC and/or whole juices to get the desired flavor and level of sweetness. The cider as fermented ends up around 7.5-8% ABV, after sweetening and flavoring with whole juice it usually ends up around 6%.

Thing is, up until recently, my peeps have overwhelmingly preferred VERY SWEET cider. I'm finally starting to get requests for dryer varieties; unfortunately, using the above recipe and simply using less in the backsweetening phase seems to yield a less-than-ideal result.

I read on another thread here that folks seem to get tastier dry ciders at lower ABV, others seem to feel higher ABV is less of an issue given longer aging times. For me though, the issue isn't that it tastes "hot," it's just that it doesn't have a very good finish. The initial flavor is just fine, but where the backsweetening and flavoring provides a good finish in my normal stuff, the dryer varieties just die on the tongue with a watery finish.

So, how do you make your dry cider "pop?" By all means, I'll try a couple of lower ABV batches to see if I can make that work, but would love to hear other suggestions.

Thanks in advance, HBT rocks! <-- mugs of cider

Dry ciders tend to be overly tart, particularly when young, and carbonation can exaggerate that character. A beer yeast that won't necessarily dry out to 0.998 is a good idea, as would be the use of malo-lactic fermentation, although with my last batch, I went too far with 6 weeks of MLF and only very light carbonation, resulting in a rather bland beverage. YMMV!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Dry ciders tend to be overly tart,

For my taste, not tart enough. I usually add more malic acid (and no MLF).