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my buddy's demon child

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superjunior

superjunior

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I thought the OP was fine. And the the first few pages of replies, back and forth, were ok, too.

But now, after all these pages of ill-informed, poorly-reasoned, fantasy-based, cantankerous, argumentative and just plain bad posts, I nominate this thread for the coveted "Worst Thread Outside of the Debate Forum Award." [/FONT]

This thread is even more deserving than the one where the guy imploded and started calling everyone (including moderators) very naughty names. But that thread was at least amusing, until he was sent into exile.

This one just makes my head hurt.
sorry pappers, didn't meen to start a " how to raise a child " debate or any other type of heated argument for that matter. I was simply venting about a very un-comfortable situation I found myself in.
 

cimirie

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If he raised his voice in my house I'd have punched him in the mouth...he could have handled it better.

The parents could also have handled it better, but he's on here being a ***** about how a 3 year old got the better of him.

Short story, the OP was beaten by a 3 year old and comes on here complaining about the parents not parenting and the THREE year old being a demon child, tchah.
If you allowed your child to behave that way in my house, it would be you who deserves the punch in the mouth. The point is, teach
Your child manners or physically control your child. Pick one.

A parent taking a child's side and making excuses for them at the expense of others is just plain lazy (or apathy or pompt).

The OP didn't get beat by a three year old. He was giving the parents the first crack at making a correction (which is appropriate). When they didn't, he was the only adult that took any action. Finally, mommy woke up and did her job.
 

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible

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People seem to be getting all bent out of shape because the thread is about children.
Let's take the kid out of the equation.
If the visitor's car pissed oil over the owner's driveway, would the car owners feel a responsibility to clean up the mess their car left?
If they brought along their dog, and it crapped on the floor, who should feel obliged to clean that up?

The kid is the visitor's responsibility and no one else's. They brought the sprog into the world, and they are in charge of it. The OP has no responsibility toward raising other people's offspring.
 
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Hey IP.

My 2 year old son has been the picture of discipline and good behavior. Now, 1 month before he turns 3, he is testing his boundaries. He is a "demon child". There should be boundaries, but what 3 year old didn't act out?

How do kids learn if they NEVER break the rules.

We humans have short memories. Any 3 year old that never acts out is stifled and probably beaten.

Show me a child that never acted out, and I will show you someone who will never have self esteem or the courage to act on their own.
I 100% agree that kids will and need to test boundaries. That's not the debate here. The debate is who's responsibility it is to set the ground rules in the first place, and then correct the child when he does test his boundaries too far. I admit I let my son do a lot more when Mommy isn't around, but nothing that will make him believe he doesn't have to listen or respect us or those around him.

You know what, though? I HAVE kids, and now a grandchild. Everyday I see holy terrors running and jumping and screaming in the grocery stores while the hand wringing mother says, "Oh, Bobby, please don't throw things. That's not nice." This whole "me" generation of talking sweetly to our children and caring about their feelings had gotten out of hand. We have a society of sub-teens who think they are entitled to everything because their parents never said "NO- that's wrong."

I actually heard a mom tell her three-year-old "Please don't pull mommy's hair.". Um, please? How about this instead? "Hair pulling hurts. Stop it right now." We don't have to say please to ask for appropriate behavior. "Please" is for "pass the salt" not "Please don't hurt me!"

Also, for the non-child homes, why should the OP redirect the child? If the child is bored, it's the PARENTS who need to say, "Jimmy, you seem like you want to do something to help. Why don't you _______?" If the parents are friggin oblivious, it's not the OP's fault- it's their fault.
+1

I was saying that it was the parents fault. I agree too that the immediate reward me generation is an over correction, but the heavy handed spanking generation before it was no more right.

I hate it worse to see a mom beating and screaming at her kids at a gas station because they aren't "minding" her.
The thing is, these two cases, although to the outsider are polar opposites, both represent the same problem. Parents that don't take the time to set and consistently enforce rules. The only difference is the calmness level of the parent. Both have no control over their child through a lack of parenting. One is just timid and cowers to the beast child, where the other is aggressive and believes intimidation will control the beast child. Both are wrong and, IMO, lazy in their parenting.

People seem to be getting all bent out of shape because the thread is about children.
Let's take the kid out of the equation.
If the visitor's car pissed oil over the owner's driveway, would the car owners feel a responsibility to clean up the mess their car left?
If they brought along their dog, and it crapped on the floor, who should feel obliged to clean that up?

The kid is the visitor's responsibility and no one else's. They brought the sprog into the world, and they are in charge of it. The OP has no responsibility toward raising other people's offspring.
This is a good point. People get very defensive when it comes to their parenting and children. If I take my dog to your house, it is my responsibility to have my eye on that dog the entire time. Not meaning I can't enjoy myself, but I will have tabs on that dog. The key point being, the dog being taught in advance what is acceptable and what is not.
That being said, my dogs are not well behaved, they live in the back yard. They chase birds and kill rabbits. They don't go places with us. They are not our children.
 

cheezydemon3

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Excellent post IP, and let me apologize.

I am a little defensive due to the sheer # of threads that involve Airplanes and grocery stores and other no real option situations where selfish people bitch that some kid was crying half the plane ride.

This is clearly NOT that kind of situation.

In those situations, feel sorry for the kid and the parents. The kid is sick or just REALLY unhappy and the parent has to endure that nonstop, you just get a brief glimpse.

The question here is "what were the parents thinking? Did they understand the value of hops?" it is possible they did not know what the stuff was or what was going on.

Either way DEMONIZING a kid is what I had a problem with.

Fault lies with the parents until at least the age of 8 or so.

All the people saying that a 3 or 4 year old should be absolutely behaved, speak only when spoken to, etc, either beat the sh!t out of their kids, or flat out don't remember that age.

I am going through it.

My 3 year old throws a tantrum when a commercial comes on during spongebob, he thinks I changed the channel. Does that make him a demon? No, he just doesn't understand enough about this world yet to react in a rational way. It takes experience, not an exorcist to learn how to behave and react properly in different situations.

I am ABSOLUTELY OK with someone correcting my kids if I am distracted or not there, so long as it falls short of yelling or spanking or cursing, etc.
 

EoinMag

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Excellent post IP, and let me apologize.

I am a little defensive due to the sheer # of threads that involve Airplanes and grocery stores and other no real option situations where selfish people bitch that some kid was crying half the plane ride.

This is clearly NOT that kind of situation.

In those situations, feel sorry for the kid and the parents. The kid is sick or just REALLY unhappy and the parent has to endure that nonstop, you just get a brief glimpse.

The question here is "what were the parents thinking? Did they understand the value of hops?" it is possible they did not know what the stuff was or what was going on.

Either way DEMONIZING a kid is what I had a problem with.

Fault lies with the parents until at least the age of 8 or so.

All the people saying that a 3 or 4 year old should be absolutely behaved, speak only when spoken to, etc, either beat the sh!t out of their kids, or flat out don't remember that age.

I am going through it.

My 3 year old throws a tantrum when a commercial comes on during spongebob, he thinks I changed the channel. Does that make him a demon? No, he just doesn't understand enough about this world yet to react in a rational way. It takes experience, not an exorcist to learn how to behave and react properly in different situations.

I am ABSOLUTELY OK with someone correcting my kids if I am distracted or not there, so long as it falls short of yelling or spanking or cursing, etc.
+1 I have a three year old at home.


Do I think the parents were wrong, absolutely?

Do I think the OP knows this and should have stepped up and done what he needed to, absolutely?

Do I think he handled it really badly by raising his voice to someone elses child (in their own home no less, where he was a guest), absolutely?

Do I think you can Blame a three year old for anything, not really?

The kid is three, the parents are at fault, no doubt, but the OP was wrong in how he handled it.
 

cheezydemon3

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A small part of me also thinks....(sorry) JUST MAYBE... the parents were having a day from hell already, stopped in at a friends house to get some adult/adult time someplace that is usually kid friendly and were stretched a little thin and not paying attention like they should? Could happen to anyone.(unless this is just what ALWAYS happens with them)

*We had a neighbor child over (1st time) and he evidently threw rocks at my neighbor's car........The neighbor told my wife about it. BRAVO. He then proceeded to scream and CUSS at my kids, my wife, and this other kid for 15 minutes.

Had he not manned up and apologized to her before I got home, my FIRST stop, before telling my kids that they were wrong for not running and telling mommy that the kid was throwing rocks, and before telling my wife that the kid is NEVER to come over again, would have been to knock on that guy's door and inform him that if he EVER speaks to my wife and kids that way again, there will be a SERIOUS problems Physical, call the police kind of problems. Even if MY KIDS had thrown the rocks HE NEEDS TO TALK TO ME.If he is justified, he can yell and cuss at me with no complaint from me. Raise your voice to my kids and YOU are the one in the wrong.*
 
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Excellent post IP, and let me apologize.

I am a little defensive due to the sheer # of threads that involve Airplanes and grocery stores and other no real option situations where selfish people bitch that some kid was crying half the plane ride.

This is clearly NOT that kind of situation.

In those situations, feel sorry for the kid and the parents. The kid is sick or just REALLY unhappy and the parent has to endure that nonstop, you just get a brief glimpse.

Agreed. This does not indicate a bad kid, despite how it may look to an outsider

Either way DEMONIZING a kid is what I had a problem with.
agreed. I feel bad for my 3 (4 this weekend) year old niece. It's sad because we dread being around her when it's not her fault. We have to keep reminding ourselves she can be a good kid with the right guidance...AKA without her parents around.

Fault lies with the parents until at least the age of 8 or so.

All the people saying that a 3 or 4 year old should be absolutely behaved, speak only when spoken to, etc, either beat the sh!t out of their kids, or flat out don't remember that age.

I am going through it.

My 3 year old throws a tantrum when a commercial comes on during spongebob, he thinks I changed the channel. Does that make him a demon? No, he just doesn't understand enough about this world yet to react in a rational way. It takes experience, not an exorcist to learn how to behave and react properly in different situations.

Agreed, the difference in good/bad parenting is how one reacts to the tantrums. Expecting them not to happen is being naive.

I am ABSOLUTELY OK with someone correcting my kids if I am distracted or not there, so long as it falls short of yelling or spanking or cursing, etc.
agreed

A small part of me also thinks....(sorry) JUST MAYBE... the parents were having a day from hell already, stopped in at a friends house to get some adult/adult time someplace that is usually kid friendly and were stretched a little thin and not paying attention like they should? Could happen to anyone.(unless this is just what ALWAYS happens with them)
I agree this can probably happen, although you don't get a day off from your kids despite how tried you are, but the OP mentioned that this kid is constantly this way and is known by others for being this way.
 

Airborneguy

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Do I think he handled it really badly by raising his voice to someone elses child (in their own home no less, where he was a guest), absolutely?
A few nights ago I was over at a Friends weighing up and packaging fresh hops. our other buddy and his wife and kid showed up to help.
Just sayin'
 

Rhoobarb

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This is one of my BIG personal pet peeves. If you can't control your brats in my personal space, then I'll do the job for you. And it won't be pretty. Whether or not I've ever had kids is not relevant to the argument. Producing kids is nothing unique or special. People have been doing it for many years and your brat is nothing special, no matter how much you think otherwise. Be a parent for once! Jeezus!!!
 

cimirie

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*We had a neighbor child over (1st time) and he evidently threw rocks at my neighbor's car........The neighbor told my wife about it. BRAVO. He then proceeded to scream and CUSS at my kids, my wife, and this other kid for 15 minutes...

Raise your voice to my kids and YOU are the one in the wrong.*
If an adult was throwing rocks at my car, house, or dog, I would absolutely charge out of the house and yell "what the f*** do you think you're doing?" Why should it be any different if it's a child? The excessive ranting to your wife after the fact was over the top and I would have taken serious issue (especially since it wasn't your child doing the throwing).

However, if my neighbor kid who I didn't know all that well was throwing rocks at my house and the parents got up in my face for yelling at him, I would LOVE to see the dad come back at me when his kid did it again. I promise you, it wouldn't be him walking away satisfied. I know it's a kid so this may sound silly, but it's your property you have a right to defend it against vandalism (which is what throwing rocks usually leads to). If the child doesnt really know you, you don't sit around and politely ask the child not to do it again. You give them an ass chewing!

But in this situation, I think your position is justified because your neighbor was never wronged by your child.
---------------------
Just reread your post. Your neighbor's whole rant was after the fact. I thought he yelled at the kid when he caught him in the act then continued it with your wife. He was absolutely in the wrong because he couldn't confront the kid 1 on 1; it appeared he needed an audience. Douchebag.
 

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible

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Whether or not I've ever had kids is not relevant to the argument.
Absolutely! It is not the duty of those who do not have kids to tend the welfare of other people's offspring. Period. The only responsibility on those without children is not to endanger or molest them.
 

cheezydemon3

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It changes a huge whopping great chunk of it IMO. ;)
Agreed.

"Honey! We're going to go help uncle (insert.....don't say it..........name) pack up hops!"

Probably non brewers, have no inkling what the significance or the pain and tears of growing involve.

Kid gets there, dives in, WHAMO!! "Back up demon child who for some reason hasn't been educated about hops yet!!!!!"(....... I know I learned how to properly handle hops when I was 6 weeks old and my uncle screamed at me)

And Rhoobarb and cimiri, OK to have your opinion, but maybe you didn't understand. SWMBO ran out yelled at the kids and apologized to him before he ever started yelling.

The only way I will EVER have a physical confrontation in my life again, is if someone is abusing my wife or kids, physically or verbally or emotionally.
If you are the neighbor, and a great neighbor for 6 years, who is screaming and cussing at my kids......look the **** out. I don't care what the kids did, they will be punished after you are.

Yelling initially is understandable. Yelling and cussing at kids for.....lets say 10 minutes so I don't exaggerate is unacceptable. YELL AT ME.

If the guy had yelled at me, I would not even think of a confrontation.
 

cimirie

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OK cheezy. It sounds like your kids have good heads on their shoulders (they didn't join in on the rock throwing) so good on you for instilling values. But let's assume they slip and were the ones tossing rocks at his car? Despite being told not to. What would you have your neighbor do? I promise you, yelling at a child who is vandalizing your car is not abuse. If you view it as such, that's totally on you.

I once had a neighbor kid who was awful. Luckily I was not his "victim" of choice (he actually wasn't evil, but his parents protected him and it was never his fault).

He had a thing for pulling up bushes and flowers from gardens. This lady was really proud of her gardening and this kid made a habit of pulling up her stuff. She caught him a few times and tried to reason with him. She notified the parents. And the kid did it again... And again. Finally she caught him and absolutely let him have it(verbally). He went home crying. The parents came over furious that she talked to their son that way but I say (and all the other neighbors agreed) BRAVO!!! That's a lot of time and expense put in to her gardening and this kid had no respect for it. There's no reason to respect a child like that.
 

cheezydemon3

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OK cheezy. It sounds like your kids have good heads on their shoulders (they didn't join in on the rock throwing) so good on you for instilling values. But let's assume they slip and were the ones tossing rocks at his car? Despite being told not to. What would you have your neighbor do? I promise you, yelling at a child who is vandalizing your car is not abuse. If you view it as such, that's totally on you.
initial yelling: "HEY GET THE FU<K AWAY FROM MY CAR!!! DON'T DO THAT EVER AGAIN!!" Is FINE with me, even cussing in the heat of the moment is OK.

10 minutes later if you are screaming and cussing in my kids face, I don't care if they were the ones doing the throwing: BACK THE F<CK OFF. I WILL LECTURE MY KIDS, FEEL FREE TO LECTURE ME ON MY PARENTING, BUT LET ME HANDLE THE KIDS.

In this instance, the initial conflict was over, and this guy intended to lecture my wife and kids in a very disrespectful manner for an extended time.

Kinda like murder, it goes from hot blooded heat of the moment understandable explosion, to a more cold blooded calculated "I am bigger and pissed off, so I can just vent on them without any immediate threat of repercussion"

I once had a neighbor kid who was awful. Luckily I was not his "victim" of choice (he actually wasn't evil, but his parents protected him and it was never his fault).

He had a thing for pulling up bushes and flowers from gardens. This lady was really proud of her gardening and this kid made a habit of pulling up her stuff. She caught him a few times and tried to reason with him. She notified the parents. And the kid did it again... And again. Finally she caught him and absolutely let him have it(verbally). He went home crying. The parents came over furious that she talked to their son that way but I say (and all the other neighbors agreed) BRAVO!!! That's a lot of time and expense put in to her gardening and this kid had no respect for it. There's no reason to respect a child like that.
Good point. Repeated offenses change the game. Also screaming or cussing if the child's life is in danger deserve special consideration.

The premise of this thread, and my example are one time offenses (or percieved offenses)

I sincerely appreciate your insights.
 

cimirie

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initial yelling: "HEY GET THE FU<K AWAY FROM MY CAR!!! DON'T DO THAT EVER AGAIN!!" Is FINE with me, even cussing in the heat of the moment is OK.

10 minutes later if you are screaming and cussing in my kids face, I don't care if they were the ones doing the throwing: BACK THE F<CK OFF. I WILL LECTURE MY KIDS, FEEL FREE TO LECTURE ME ON MY PARENTING, BUT LET ME HANDLE THE KIDS.

In this instance, the initial conflict was over, and this guy intended to lecture my wife and kids in a very disrespectful manner for an extended time.

Kinda like murder, it goes from hot blooded heat of the moment understandable explosion, to a more cold blooded calculated "I am bigger and pissed off, so I can just vent on them without any immediate threat of repercussion"
OK, cool. We're on the same page. I agree that after the fact discussions (from kids or adults) always call for a logical, sensible discussion - not over the top screaming. Your neighbor was out of line. Especially directing it at your wife.

If "at the time of offense" you're cool with a little yelling, then we're in total harmony (ain't it great!?!).
 

WCrane

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Read the whole thread, loved the discussion, thought I throw thought in.

Anyone here a teacher by trade?

I taught middle school and its amazing to get both ends of the spectrum in a class. But it's your classroom and you need to have to take control of your classroom. I know do a lot of guest presentation where i go to teachers classroom, I have no problem strighing out one of their students if they are going to. Same as it is your home, yard, car, etc. Granted first time you have to deal with a problem it's tough, it's new to you. It's get easier with time. I also ref youth sports where I have had to discipline parents and coaches as well. It took a full season before I got to the point I need to be. That was &#8220;I&#8217;m the ref, this is my field, I&#8217;m in charge, shut up or your gone&#8221;.

I find a lot of young parents I meet have the same problem as I did when I started out teaching and refing - you want everyone to like you - therefore you avoid the necessary evil of discipline.

Granted look up the definition of discipline its more related to giving structure in accordance to how to behave. You can train a child without needing many negative consequences. It might be harder for most to do it this way, but its works a whole lot better.

The Op did the best he did for a new situation. experience is a great teacher. I&#8217;m sure things will be different if a similar instance happens in the future
 

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible

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Read the whole thread, loved the discussion, thought I throw thought in.

Anyone here a teacher by trade?

I taught middle school and its amazing to get both ends of the spectrum in a class. But it's your classroom and you need to have to take control of your classroom. I know do a lot of guest presentation where i go to teachers classroom, I have no problem strighing out one of their students if they are going to. Same as it is your home, yard, car, etc. Granted first time you have to deal with a problem it's tough, it's new to you. It's get easier with time. I also ref youth sports where I have had to discipline parents and coaches as well. It took a full season before I got to the point I need to be. That was “I’m the ref, this is my field, I’m in charge, shut up or your gone”.

I find a lot of young parents I meet have the same problem as I did when I started out teaching and refing - you want everyone to like you - therefore you avoid the necessary evil of discipline.

Granted look up the definition of discipline its more related to giving structure in accordance to how to behave. You can train a child without needing many negative consequences. It might be harder for most to do it this way, but its works a whole lot better.

The Op did the best he did for a new situation. experience is a great teacher. I’m sure things will be different if a similar instance happens in the future
This is one reason i told my daughter before she went to school to NEVER trust a teacher. They do and say stuff designed to make their own lives easier. What they say or do is rarely intended to improve the child. Sorry WCrane. ;)

For the record, I have a terrific 30 year old daughter. She was almost perfect until 14, then the poo hit the fan for a while, but not for too long.

I remember giving her lots of advice when she was younger, some of it was fairly far out compared to the norm. She now works as a temp teacher kinda thing and is studying to be a qualified teacher. However unorthodox my parenting skills may be, they will be passed on to future youth. (Insert evil laugh here)
 

WCrane

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This is one reason i told my daughter before she went to school to NEVER trust a teacher. They do and say stuff designed to make their own lives easier. What they say or do is rarely intended to improve the child. Sorry WCrane. ;)

your were one of those parent i would have conferences with and be all on board to help get the kid on the right track only to have the same meeting the next marking period. lol. But it never mattered i was just there to collect a check and be a union sap to suck the tax dollars out of the system for my cushiony beneifts and killer pension.:ban:

Tell you daughter Postive Behavoir reinforcement learn it, love it, breath it,e eat it, drink it I had a great Behavior managment profession in grad school. his class was the most vital.
 

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible

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But it never mattered i was just there to collect a check and be a union sap to suck the tax dollars out of the system for my cushiony beneifts and killer pension.:ban:
Obviously I know you are kidding, but honestly. I told my daughter to go to school and take in the book knowledge they had to offer and learn to interact with others. That was all.

I made damn sure that she learned morals, imagination, aspirations and a sense of fun from me and her friends (My wife was a waste of time). Teachers are good for book learning, but I wouldn't want my kid to learn life skills from one just the same as I wouldn't want him/her to learn morality from a catholic priest.

Parents need to be parents. Teachers should not be babysitters.
 

WCrane

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LGI - why a downer on teachers?

"Morals, imagination, aspirations and a sense of fun" was what I tried to bring to my classroom because the parents of many of my former students weren't doing this. Someone was going to be a postive influence and if its not the parents or family, who's it going to be. It was the whole reason I wanted to be a teacher, and now that i'm out of the field, I want to be back in it.

But I didn't hesitate for a minute to be thankful for all the parents who took the time to care and be apart of the childrens lives.

If a teacher is using just the book for learning, something is wrong. I guess I was fortunate enough to work with some great educators
 

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible

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LGI - why a downer on teachers?

"Morals, imagination, aspirations and a sense of fun" was what I tried to bring to my classroom because the parents of many of my former students weren't doing this. Someone was going to be a postive influence and if its not the parents or family, who's it going to be. It was the whole reason I wanted to be a teacher, and now that i'm out of the field, I want to be back in it.

But I didn't hesitate for a minute to be thankful for all the parents who took the time to care and be apart of the childrens lives.

If a teacher is using just the book for learning, something is wrong. I guess I was fortunate enough to work with some great educators
You get me wrong. I have no downer on teachers. I just don't think a good parent can trust that their kids have a GOOD one. You can look at resumes, past records and all that stuff, but in the end, the parent is the real teacher. The parent is the one with the finger on the pulse. However good a teacher may be, it is a part time position as far as the kid is concerned.

Can you honestly look around you and say that ALL your colleagues are GOOD teachers and would be the best guides for ALL children?

I'm just advocating that Parenting starts and ends with parents.
 

WCrane

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Sorry, Might not of caught the same wave.

but in the end, the parent is the real teacher
agree with that statement 10,000% Parents does start and end with the parent

Are all my former collegeues the best for all students. Nope, But in many cases, at least with in the confines of school, they were better than what a good deal of students had at home. Unfortunately not all parents are on the same wave as you.
 

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible

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Are all my former collegeues the best for all students. Nope, But in many cases, at least with in the confines of school, they were better than what a good deal of students had at home.
I am not a teacher, so those kids do not concern me until they get all jiggy on my fooking lawn! ;)
 

cimirie

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You get me wrong. I have no downer on teachers. I just don't think a good parent can trust that their kids have a GOOD one. You can look at resumes, past records and all that stuff, but in the end, the parent is the real teacher. The parent is the one with the finger on the pulse. However good a teacher may be, it is a part time position as far as the kid is concerned.

Can you honestly look around you and say that ALL your colleagues are GOOD teachers and would be the best guides for ALL children?

I'm just advocating that Parenting starts and ends with parents.
By the me token, can you honestly look around your neighborhood, your town, state or country and say a majority of parents are good parents that take an active interest in their child's lives. Both of my sisters are first grade teachers. If the two of them combined have a total of 6 parents who actively help and take part in their child's development, it's a cause for celebration.

If you're playing numbers, I'm much more likely to trust a teacher to give good counsel and learn life skills than a parent. I know there are a ton of sh***y teachers out there, but there are just as many sh***y parents.

Teachers get involved with teaching because they want to make a difference in kids lives. Many get jaded and stuck an some are just awful in general, but they all get into it to be a good mentor. Parents often end up parents because it's what they're "supposed to do" when you get a certain age. Heck some have kids 'cause they got too drunk one night. Being a biological parent doesn't neccessarily make the best choice for being a guide in life.
 

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible

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By the me token, can you honestly look around your neighborhood, your town, state or country and say a majority of parents are good parents that take an active interest in their child's lives. Both of my sisters are first grade teachers. If the two of them combined have a total of 6 parents who actively help and take part in their child's development, it's a cause for celebration.

If you're playing numbers, I'm much more likely to trust a teacher to give good counsel and learn life skills than a parent. I know there are a ton of sh***y teachers out there, but there are just as many sh***y parents.

Teachers get involved with teaching because they want to make a difference in kids lives. Many get jaded and stuck an some are just awful in general, but they all get into it to be a good mentor. Parents often end up parents because it's what they're "supposed to do" when you get a certain age. Heck some have kids 'cause they got too drunk one night. Being a biological parent doesn't neccessarily make the best choice for being a guide in life.
Rule 1 of being a good parent is that you don't play numbers. You know your own skills, and you know your kid. I can't give a flying fook about however moronic other parents might be. It has nothing to do with it. They can do their own thing, and good luck to the teachers. Why would i care about sh#tty parents when i am not one myself?
 

Airborneguy

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If you're playing numbers, I'm much more likely to trust a teacher to give good counsel and learn life skills than a parent. I know there are a ton of sh***y teachers out there, but there are just as many sh***y parents.
My problem comes in when the teacher decides that they are going to make that decision for the child. No teacher will ever make a decision outside of the classroom for my children, period. That's my job. I want my children's teachers to give them what the state requires; I'll do the rest.

I say this because I know a ton of teachers, and don't trust a third of them to tie their own shoe laces, much less be a major factor in my kid's life.

Maybe it's where I live and the teacher's union here, but I definitely have to be careful with the teachers my kids encounter, and that will never change.
 

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible

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I say this because I know a ton of teachers, and don't trust a third of them to tie their own shoe laces.
I'm going back a long time now, 60's and early 70's, but that ratio sounds about right for when I was at school. It's really not very good odds.

Kids are not as dumb as they act. They know who are the good ones and who are the bad ones.
 

cimirie

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LGI-

I chose my words perhaps poorly. I agree, a parent SHOULD have their finger on the pulse. A parent SHOUlD be the real teacher. And a teacher SHOULD be a part time ina child's life.

My point (although after a reread I realize I only made this point in my head) is that I believe a good teacher should strive to instill far more than the state requires (knowing the minimum standards the state requires would scare most people).

You state you think 1/3 of teachers are useless. I totally buy that number. Based on my personal observations and two sisters and 3 very good friends who are all teachers, the number of apathetic and uninvolved parents is at least that.

So society as a whole benefits from teachers who teach values, proper behavior and attitudes. If teachers left that aspect of education solely in the hands of the parents, 1/3 of our future leaders would be walking around with no practical life perspectives, values, and behaviors.

If a parent is active in a child's life, their views will most likely trump a teacher's. If they don't, a child is making his or her own decision based on all the available facts - which isn't a bad thing either.

So where's the harm in having a teacher take an active interest in the educational, social, and behavioral well being of their students?
 

Airborneguy

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So where's the harm in having a teacher take an active interest in the educational, social, and behavioral well being of their students?
Simple answer: because that is the parents job. I don't need some communist teacher teaching my kid about political correctness and socialism. Teachers, especially in public union-driven schools, have a very bad habit of imparting their personal views on the children, and that is completely unacceptable. Not coincidentally, you even included the word social in the quote above. That has no place in the classroom at all. When teachers get off their high horses and realize that they should only be teaching what is in the textbooks, then maybe I won't have to watch over my kids educators so closely, and maybe I will trust them (a bit).
 
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