My Beef With Craft Beers in America

[SavaShip]

Pretty harsh words for things that others may like.

"nasty bottles of bitter crap" is maybe your perception- but either dumb fools like me either like many styles of beer, or maybe you are the one with the problem.

I'm a certified BJCP judge, and I have a trained palate. I can pick out ingredients in food, wine, beer, and so on.

Do me a favor, go to a local chemistry teacher and do the PTC test, and find out if you even have a full palate. Because unless you genetically can taste it, you have no idea how terrible it tastes to people who can. Here's further reading on it:
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/inheritance/ptc/

 

[Keith66]

Interesting side note, my favorite beer ever was Gulden Draak, ever had it?

Not yet, but it won't be long now. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[dudius]

Why be combative? The point here is A: no bar can tell you what beer is what style. "Bell" is an English name, so instead of misleading me by calling it "Best Brown" they should have called it "Best American Brown", or the bartender could have told me when I asked... Even in Tap Houses they have no clue. In fact, most American Tap Houses only represent 5 styles, even if they have 40 taps. I went to the Boulder Tap House in Baxter MN, they have 40 beers on tap. 26 of them were IPAs, and 10 were freakin' Ciders, and lambics don't count!! Do you know how many were malty and balanced (between 17-27 IBU)? I'll give you hint, it was less than 1. So yes, I hold you, the vocal minority with genetically missing taste buds accountable for making all tap houses believe that beers over 40 IBU are what beer drinkers want out of a "good" beer. I've drank beer for over 20 years, I have expanded my palette, but will never become a "hophead", because genetically I have taste buds that detect poison. You were silent, until there were a handful of "me too" agreements, now you need to move in and silence us, not just you, but others must join you to quell this hops rebellion. Oh no, someone might read this one, and a TapHouse might actually put a Bock, or English ale in one of their 40 taps!!! OH THE HORROR!!! The fact you're trying to silence me right now proves that you're the pushy ones... when it's people like me who are enslaved to not drinking decent, balanced beers in tap houses because you want your opinions to overshadow those of we little people who genetically have our taste buds and understand when something tastes like poison.

Wow. I am shocked someone would stoop so low as to accuse people of trying to squash you out with poison.

For one, you make a lot of assumptions about beer bars and people not knowing anything about beer. Not everyone is a cicerone, but lots of people at beer bars know their beer.

Not specifying between an English brown and an American brown shouldn't warrant your anger at another person. Maybe you're the one who should know Bell's is named after Larry Bell, who founded the brewery in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Maybe you're the one who should know that Bell's makes American-style beers.

Before anyone else goes into the tasters and non-tasters stuff any further, keep in mind that genetics can't control things that are altered by behavior. I consider myself a non-taster (never taken a test but I seem to fit the category) BUT at one point I only drank sweet bocks, red ales, and brown ales. A while after I got into craft beer my lifestyle changed and I began drinking strong coffee, it wasn't until after the strong coffee that I began drinking stronger tea. From there I began appreciating bitter stouts and IPAs. Why? Because my palate shifted.

I wasn't just deadening my taste buds either, I've learned to detect subtleties in beer as well. Not as well as some, but definitely better than many.

Don't think yourself enslaved, just remember you're part of a niche in the craft beer world. Know the beer you like and seek it out. Also try pairing bitter beers with sweet foods, you'll find the cross-adaptation will quell the bitterness and make the sweetness more enjoyable.

And if you don't enjoy the beer on the market, you can always brew your own. Cheers!

 

[SavaShip]

Wow. I am shocked someone would stoop so low as to accuse people of trying to squash you out with poison.

To be fair, I said "tastes like poison" so I didn't really stoop low at all. Not knowing "Bell's Brewery" was the one in in Kalamazoo Michigan, and not the "Bell's Brewery" from Maidenhead England... hardly my fault, I later looked up "Best Brown" (we don't all use the internet at the bar) and found that it was indeed an American Brown Ale, but the audacity of stealing a brewery name from England, and having a Brown Ale that didn't use the term "American" in it was what got me mad. Back to tasting poison, that is exactly what the PTC gene is designed for, to warn humans of things that are poisonous. Here's another good external beer link that touches on the subject:
http://billybrew.com/genetics-ipa

 

[JonGrafto]

To be fair, I said "tastes like poison" so I didn't really stoop low at all. Not knowing "Bell's Brewery" was the one in in Kalamazoo Michigan, and not the "Bell's Brewery" from Maidenhead England... hardly my fault, I later looked up "Best Brown" (we don't all use the internet at the bar) and found that it was indeed an American Brown Ale, but the audacity of stealing a brewery name from England, and having a Brown Ale that didn't use the term "American" in it was what got me mad. Back to tasting poison, that is exactly what the PTC gene is designed for, to warn humans of things that are poisonous. Here's another good external beer link that touches on the subject:
http://billybrew.com/genetics-ipa

^^^ Who is this guy????

I would have thought that you living in Minnesota, would have at least heard of Bell's Brewery and known they were from Michigan (they are only a state and a half away) instead of assuming an English brewery named Bells. (By the way, it was the Bell Brewery in Maidenhead and it hasn't been around in over 80 years after Nicholson's bought it in 1922 but there is a Pub name The Bell there.)

I don't know, maybe you are a transplant from Europe that just can't get into American brews?? Eh.. To each their own...

And to set Yooper off that like??? You hate to see such a rookie move.

 

[Homercidal]

Why be combative? The point here is A: no bar can tell you what beer is what style. "Bell" is an English name, so instead of misleading me by calling it "Best Brown" they should have called it "Best American Brown", or the bartender could have told me when I asked... Even in Tap Houses they have no clue. In fact, most American Tap Houses only represent 5 styles, even if they have 40 taps. I went to the Boulder Tap House in Baxter MN, they have 40 beers on tap. 26 of them were IPAs, and 10 were freakin' Ciders, and lambics don't count!! Do you know how many were malty and balanced (between 17-27 IBU)? I'll give you hint, it was less than 1. So yes, I hold you, the vocal minority with genetically missing taste buds accountable for making all tap houses believe that beers over 40 IBU are what beer drinkers want out of a "good" beer. I've drank beer for over 20 years, I have expanded my palette, but will never become a "hophead", because genetically I have taste buds that detect poison. You were silent, until there were a handful of "me too" agreements, now you need to move in and silence us, not just you, but others must join you to quell this hops rebellion. Oh no, someone might read this one, and a TapHouse might actually put a Bock, or English ale in one of their 40 taps!!! OH THE HORROR!!! The fact you're trying to silence me right now proves that you're the pushy ones... when it's people like me who are enslaved to not drinking decent, balanced beers in tap houses because you want your opinions to overshadow those of we little people who genetically have our taste buds and understand when something tastes like poison.

I certainly didn't mean to be combative, and I apologize if I sounded that way. I think if you went back and read my first posts, it is clear that I agreed there are a lot of hoppy beers out there, and I suggested you seek out beers that you like.

After it became apparent that you had a palate definitely skewed toward disliking bitter, and that your tastes simply do not align themselves with the vast majority of craft beer drinkers, I stated as much. AND I even offered you a link to help you find more beers that you would enjoy.

As a long time craft beer drinker and Homebrewer I realized a long time ago that I had to do a lot of research if I wanted to get a handle on who makes what. I understand that most places don't educate their servers on beer (Although I was surprised that Buffalo Wild Wings has all of their servers study and take an exam on some basic beer facts. As a matter of fact, the bartender I chatted with about 2 years ago had a question on her exam which asked "What style of beer is Newcastle?" I told her it was an English Brown, but I wasn't sure if it was Northern or Southern.) Because of this I spent a lot of time trying stuff I had no clue about. It didn't always agree with me, but I learned.

If you are at a place and don't know if you will like a beer or not, just ask the server if you can get a small sample. I haven't come across a taproom or brewery that wasn't eager to let you taste first.

Most breweries will have at least one or two fairly malty beers to offer, and again, I think it would be worth your while to read up on them and seek them out, but I think if you look at the facts, most people consider balanced to be different from what you think it is.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Not specifying between an English brown and an American brown shouldn't warrant your anger at another person. Maybe you're the one who should know Bell's is named after Larry Bell, who founded the brewery in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Maybe you're the one who should know that Bell's makes American-style beers.

Oh, and just to warn Savaship, Bell's Two Hearted Ale is a bitter American IPA.

And it doesn't have any hearts in it, American or English!

And while we're at it, Stone Levitation Ale won't make you able to fly.

MORE LABELING MADNESS!

 

[garcia]

The way I see it, there is 2 solutions to this problem.

1) you home brew what you want.
2) a quick internet search will tell you what style of beer you are about to order.

 

[Keith66]

ALRIGHT-ALRIGHT-ALRIGHT!!!... I agree with most of what I've read here. My taste in beer sounds very similar to SavaShip's, as my previous posts here have said. I also agree with SavaShip that most public establishments, be they markets, bars or restaurants, stock many more hoppy beers than otherwise, and non-hoppy varieties, especially classic continental styles, are relatively hard to find. I've ordered iced tea or lemonade in many places after looking at the beer list and seeing only BMC, the usual macros, and hoppy IPAs and American-style craft beers. I live in California, and I suspect the ratio of bitter:non-bitter beers is higher out here than say Ohio (two hearted). I agree with SavaShip that most of these establishments aren't very educated about what they serve. If you disagree with this, switch over to the thread "Funny things you've overheard about beer" where this public and marketing ignorance is humorously highlighted.

I also agree with most of the other folks in this thread, especially Homercidal and Yooper (who both have my respect for their vast experience and knowledge, not to mention tolerance as moderators), and with my own hard-won experience, that too much b!tching about what we don't like just p!sses everybody off. Trust me, I'm good at it. dudius just posted "And if you don't enjoy the beer on the market, you can always brew your own." That's exactly why I started homebrewing, and it's why I now brew and drink 100% beers that I like, and very little store bought. There's a whole lot of non-hoppy beers going through my house including some nasty bubblegum fruit crap (love ya Yoop! ), even sours. I don't get upset when people hate the beers I like, even poke fun over it, but let's not badger each other. SavaShip, I love your taste in brews and agree with your assessment of the market; I appreciate your edgy humor; but you gotta (and I hate it when people say this to me) RDWHAHB! Prost!

 

[b-boy]

I'd assume that most places will stock what they can sell. If something doesn't sell well, it's gonna be removed from the lineup. I think you'll probably have better luck looking for a bar that specializes in bottles over taps. They will usually have a better selection since they only need to keep a few six packs around.

When I go somewhere with a crappy beer selection, I usually just get a Lager of some kind. You generally can't go wrong there.

Oh - BTW. Right now there is an American in England bitching about how malty all the beers are, and wondering why he can't find a nice 12% 120 IBU hop bomb to drink. Damn Brits are ruining beer!

Just trying to put this thread into perspective for you.

 

[Keith66]

SavaShip, you need to find a place like my favorite pub: http://himmelhaustahoe.com/biers/ If you're ever on the Left Coast shoot me a PM and I'll buy you a litre!

 

[bob1852]

I later looked up "Best Brown" (we don't all use the internet at the bar) and found that it was indeed an American Brown Ale, but the audacity of stealing a brewery name from England, and having a Brown Ale that didn't use the term "American" in it was what got me mad.

Best example I've seen in months of first world problems!!!!

IMO, brown ales need some substantial hop bitterness to balance the maltiness. If I want chocolate milk, I'll order chocolate milk.

 

[progmac]

Best example I've seen in months of first world problems!!!!

IMO, brown ales need some substantial hop bitterness to balance the maltiness. If I want chocolate milk, I'll order chocolate milk.

my problem is that i love chocolate milk but i'm lactose intolerant. so i love me a sweet brown.

 

[bob1852]

Do me a favor, go to a local chemistry teacher and do the PTC test, and find out if you even have a full palate. Because unless you genetically can taste it, you have no idea how terrible it tastes to people who can. Here's further reading on it:
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/inheritance/ptc/

From your own link:

And while the PTC gene has about 85% of the total influence over whether someone is a taster or a non-taster, there are many other things that affect PTC tasting ability.

Additional link: http://udel.edu/~mcdonald/mythptc.html

However, both classical family and twin studies, and modern molecular genotyping, show that there are other genes or environmental factors that influence PTC tasting. As a result, there is a continuous range of PTC tasting, not absolute separation into tasters and non-tasters.

It's not as simple as "I can taste it, and you all can't, so suck it!!!!" (which is how your posts are portrayed)

 

[two_hearted]

Not knowing "Bell's Brewery" was the one in in Kalamazoo Michigan, and not the "Bell's Brewery" from Maidenhead England... hardly my fault.

So after googling this other Bell's Brewery, I could hardly even find any information on them. There's no wikipedia page for them, their name is mentioned once and their status is "unknown". So, my question is, how the hell did you ever know who the defunct "Bell Brewery" is and how did you confuse them for one of the top 10 breweries in the US?

This guy is just a troll. I'm going to stop feeding him.

 

[masteraviator]

Hmmm OP doesn't like hoppy beers. Someone else mentioned they don't like big beers/high abv. Yooper mentioned he doesn't like Belgians.

I think I might have a solution.... what they should do is group beers into taste categories/profiles so that discriminating craft beer consumers can find out which categories they like and which they don't.

Oh yeah... already do that don't they.

 

[masteraviator]

duplicate

 

[bob1852]

Yooper mentioned he doesn't like Belgians.

That, he doesn't!!!

 

[SavaShip]

Please please, let's not bring this down from good-hearted fun to harshness, Keith66 nailed it correctly, and I feel like bwarbiany got it too, I was being humorously obtuse on a lot of things, my humor rubs a lot of people wrong, if you don't get it, ignore me! I take everything lightly until people outwardly call me names. I don't like your beer, so what? I didn't call you an intolerable ass or anything like some people did to me. Let it be known that I had a lot of fun defending my position from an onslaught of opposition, even though the opposition is clearly winning at the taphouses and therefore didn't really need multiple representations, I'm just happy I bonded with a few guys who have similar tastes. Homercidal, we're all good! I actually had a printout of older BJCP styles 2004 I think, that was before American Brown Ales over 40 IBU were supposed to be entered into a special class... so 2004-2007 American Brown Ales could theoretically go to infinity IBUs, sorry for that mix up!

As for making things too simple, it really IS simple! What I basically stated is about 75%-80% of the people in the world are able to taste PTC which is found in hops. This sensitivity varies in intensity from person to person and is designed by nature to be unpleasant, because that's the receptor that warns you of something's toxicity... it's difficult (not impossible) to get over that, so I theorize that people who can taste PTC are less likely to enjoy different beers. I've heard people say "that beer tastes dark" and by dark they mean bitter, but some of the sweetest beers I've had were dark. Which leads me to conclude that most people don't get out there and keep trying them until they find styles they like, they just give up... so I feel that the likelyhood that most craft beer drinkers are not able to taste PTC, or are only mildly able to taste it is high. Ergo my conclusion is that a majority of the people who go on to become BJCP judges, are unable to taste PTC than the majority of society. It also makes me feel sad that there are major genetic reasons for things to taste different from person to person, and yet we have what would appear to be a genetically biased group of people judging beers. Thus the conclusion is, if we all just agreed with me, a LOT more people would enjoy beer, like 80% more people, which is good for everyone! Many people will still enjoy IPA's, and I'm not trying to take those away from anyone... I simply also want to have something at a local tap that doesn't alert my taste buds that are designed for detecting poisons, so something NEXT to the IPA's, or in place of one or two of the 22 of them would be greatly appreciated!

I have a question for those who are not sensitive to PTC (like the taste of most IPAs)... do Bocks, Irish Reds, and Southern English Brown Ales taste Cloyingly sweet to you guys?

 

[two_hearted]

duplicate

Yeah... thanks but that's where I pointed out that they're listed as "status unknown."

 

[b-boy]

Please please, let's not bring this down from good-hearted fun to harshness, Keith66 nailed it correctly, and I feel like bwarbiany got it too, I was being humorously obtuse on a lot of things, my humor rubs a lot of people wrong, if you don't get it, ignore me! I take everything lightly until people outwardly call me names.

You need to toss these around when you're being humorously obtuse.

:rockin: :cross:

Otherwise it's hard for people to tell when you're being serious. That's the problem with the internet.

 

[masteraviator]

Please please, let's not bring this down from good-hearted fun to harshness

It's all good brother. Amazingly, I think you have a right to your opinion to your preference in styles of beer. I happen to be a hop head who really likes DIPA and RIS. Those who don't leave more on the shelf for me.

But, I guarantee that the Craft brewers can shape the market only so far with their choice of what they brew; the reverse is imminently true. The market will and has pushed what is successful for them. They will continue to brew styles which succeed. Beers which fly off of the shelf will continue to be brewed.

 

[bob1852]

I have a question for those who are not sensitive to PTC (like the taste of most IPAs)... do Bocks, Irish Reds, and Southern English Brown Ales taste Cloyingly sweet to you guys?

Nope. I love Irish reds and English milds. Don't drink many bocks, but when I do I enjoy them.

I love the malt forward and roasty dry finish in Irish reds.

English milds are a great style as well. Great balance of roast, chocolate/carmel, and a slight hop bitterness.

 

[two_hearted]

Please please, let's not bring this down from good-hearted fun to harshness, Keith66 nailed it correctly, and I feel like bwarbiany got it too, I was being humorously obtuse on a lot of things, my humor rubs a lot of people wrong, if you don't get it, ignore me!

You see, we're reacting to someone who just joined the forums and makes their first posts in a thread slamming American craft beer and calling styles of beer "nasty crap" and people who like IPAs without taste.. You also called out two of the moderators here when they were pointing out how you were being harsh.

I don't think its us not getting your humor, I think you don't know how to translate humor to text without being harsh or just causing trouble.

 

[SavaShip]

I don't think its us not getting your humor, I think you don't know how to translate humor to text without being harsh or just causing trouble.

So my humor sounds harsh, or like it's causing trouble to you? Sounds like you didn't get it.

Some people can't take it when you say bad things about something they like... it's as though they think they ARE that thing... Two_hearted... you are NOT an IPA, you're a person! Get over it! Rip on Bocks, or English Ales... I love those beers, but I am not one of those beers. If they tasted bad to you, I'd rather you avoid them... if there was something you liked better that you wanted to see in the pubs, I'd be right there with you, even if it was a style I didn't like, unless that style is already overrepresented.

 

[Homercidal]

I have a question for those who are not sensitive to PTC (like the taste of most IPAs)... do Bocks, Irish Reds, and Southern English Brown Ales taste Cloyingly sweet to you guys?

I would say that the number of times I've found a beer to be too sweet is probably about the same as the number of times I've found a beer too bitter.

Bocks, Irish Reds, and English Brown Ales are not that sweet to me.

I like to mix it up. Sometimes I'm just dying for a mouthful of hops and good bracing amount of bitterness. Other times I want to taste all the malt. Sometimes I just want a well-carbed beer to wash down my food.

I will admit that my taste is very likely not overly sensitive, but I am sure I can taste bitter just fine. When I started drinking beer and a teenager I thought coors light was bitter. Bass Pale Ale was a pretty bitter beer at one point. Then I couldn't imagine why my friend (Who was a VERY picky eater) lived IPAs.

After a while, and a bit of exploring, I discovered that I really enjoyed the taste of hops and bitterness wasn't a problem at all either.

Actually, I usually keep an IPA on tap at home, but this last time, rather than brew one up, I brewed a Scottish /70 instead. It's just fun to try different things.

But I won't be brewing any sour beers. I dislike tart and sour about the same as you dislike bitter. Nasty.

 

[SavaShip]

I would say that the number of times I've found a beer to be too sweet is probably about the same as the number of times I've found a beer too bitter.

This is awesome news! The difference, is that I rarely find a beer that is too sweet. There was a Chocolate Shock-Top that was way too sweet I had once. Tart I haven't had too many of... BerryWeiss by Leinenkugals? Have you had that?

 

[Keith66]

You see, we're reacting to someone who just joined the forums and makes their first posts in a thread slamming American craft beer and calling styles of beer "nasty crap" and people who like IPAs without taste.. You also called out two of the moderators here when they were pointing out how you were being harsh.

I don't think its us not getting your humor, I think you don't know how to translate humor to text without being harsh or just causing trouble.

I generally agree with you, but there are other long-time members here who also have a harsh sense of humor and like to kick up dust, but they've learned to respect the mods. Give the newbie a little time to find his place and he'll fit right in. His other posts aren't nearly as rough as his posts here.

 

[b-boy]

I don't like anything sweet.

That being said I have had a lot of malt forward beers. As long as their is a nice bitterness to offset them I'm fine. It doesn't have to be in your face hoppy either. As long as I can taste some bitterness I'm good.

However, I have noticed that in the last few years my preception of bitterness has changed. An SNPA does not taste bitter to me anymore.

I do understand you revulsion to certain flavors, like bitterness. I have an issue with Belgian funk. I can handle a little as a backdrop in a beer. I've adapted to Dubbels and Quads and tend to prefer darker Belgians, but some of the Trippels seem to take it way too far.

For me it's not even about the taste. The taste doesn't really bother me. It's more of a physical sensation in the back of my throat. It's hard to explain, and I've never experienced the sensation with any other food/drink. I've been trying to force myself to like these beers, but so far it just hasn't happened. I can drink them, but I don't love them.

 

[Homercidal]

This is awesome news! The difference, is that I rarely find a beer that is too sweet. There was a Chocolate Shock-Top that was way too sweet I had once. Tart I haven't had too many of... BerryWeiss by Leinenkugals? Have you had that?

Ha! Berry Weiss tastes like Kool-Aid vomit to me. It's more the fruit flavors that I don't like. I'm hit or miss on fruit. Jamesport Brewing in Ludington, MI brews an awesome Apricot Wheat.

You might want to check out some beers from Dragonmead down by Detroit. They are known to brew authentic English beers, mostly. I think they have a lot more on tap than they sell packaged, but you might find them at a beer festival near you.