My batch sparge efficiency theory was confirmed again

[Bobby_M]

You mean efficient as in extraction rate or time? I know for a fact that (on my system) mashout, batch, batch (that's 3 total runoffs) is more efficient than two.

 

[DAAB]

As in pre boil/mash efficiency. When you say three run offs, how much wort are you collecting. The idea is to collect your brew length plus losses to evaporation (based on a standard 60 or 90 min boil depending on preference) and losses to the hops and trub.
You maybe able to rinse out more sugars by collecting more wort but thats not the idea of batch sparging.

 

[FlyGuy]

The most efficient way to batch sparge is to collect 2 equal batches which means mashing (don't run off), top up with sparge water, run off, add the second batch of sparge water and run once more. Recirculating or vorlaufing is generally quite a quick process as the grains are quite fluid and settle easily.
Tannin extraction isn't an issue as there isn't the rising PH situation at the end of the sparge as per fly sparging.

In THEORY this is supposed to be true, but as this thread demonstrates, what should work in theory doesn't always work in practice. Bobby has found a better way that works for him, and I don't doubt it for a second. Another great example of this is fly sparging vs. batch sparging. In theory, fly sparging should be more efficient. But in practice, not everyone has a perfect system or perfect technique, and batch sparging is sometimes more efficient for them.

In my own experience, trying a few different techniques has shown that a modification of your equal-runnings system works best. I shoot for two equal run-offs (i.e., one batch sparge addition), but I make up my first runnings with a mash-out (or as close as I can come). A mash-out makes a big difference in efficiency, as Bobby has already demonstrated in this thread. If I use the two rounds of batch sparging and a mash-out, like Bobby, I get approximately the same result (a little lower, actually) as the one round of batch sparging. So for me, the extra step isn't worth the hassle.

The important message that is emerging from this thread is that you have to find a technique that works best for you. I have stopped believing that ONE technique (e.g., fly sparging vs. batch sparging, single batch sparge vs. two batch sparges, mash-out vs no mash-out, etc.) is necessarily better than another. Be open to trying multiple ways and find what works for you. This is just part of the fun of the hobby -- there are lots of things to try that will help you to make better beer and enjoy the process even more.

Cheers!

 

[DAAB]

I shoot for two equal run-offs (i.e., one batch sparge addition), but I make up my first runnings with a mash-out (or as close as I can come).

That's exactly the method I describe (as does Ken Schwartz and Denny Conn etc). It's the temperature of the first top up prior to run off that raises the grain bed temperature and effects the mash out.

 

[FlyGuy]

That's exactly the method I describe (as does Ken Schwartz and Denny Conn etc). It's the temperature of the first top up prior to run off that raises the grain bed temperature and effects the mash out.

Ah, ok. I suspected as much, but you said to top-up with sparge water which I differentiate from a mash-out infusion (i.e., the sparge water isn't as hot). Regardless, I have tried it both ways and saw only a slight and somewhat inconsistent increase in efficiency doing it this way. I prefer this method, but only because it saves a bit of time and one vorlauf.

 

[DAAB]

Ah, ok. I suspected as much, but you said to top-up with sparge water which I differentiate from a mash-out infusion (i.e., the sparge water isn't as hot).

It's all sparge water really, personally I top up with 85 deg c water from the HLT(although others advocate hotter) then I add a little cold water to the hlt to bring the temperature down to 80 deg c, these steps aren't critical though imo. As has already been mentioned the mash out is done in the boiler (if not done previously) batch sparging is so quick it makes little difference, (certainly by comparison to fly sparging).

My efficiency has dropped 5-10 pts to 78% compared to fly sparging but it's a small price to pay for the time saved and for being a much easier process. (the only problem is some of the explantions on the web make it seem like rocket science).

 

[FlyGuy]

It's all sparge water really, personally I top up with 85 deg c water from the HLT(although others advocate hotter) then I add a little cold water to the hlt to bring the temperature down to 80 deg c, these steps aren't critical though imo. As has already been mentioned the mash out is done in the boiler (if not done previously) batch sparging is so quick it makes little difference, (certainly by comparison to fly sparging).

If you haven't already done so, give a hot mash-out infusion a try. I noticed a significant improvement in my efficiency (at least 5%) when I started using one. Bobby clearly demonstrates that it improved his efficiency batch sparging, too.

I think the reason is that the significant rise in mash temperature allows some extra sugars into solution, plus it makes lautering quite a bit easier. Well worth the extra effort, at least for me. I recommend trying it once to see if you have a similar experience. I can't say that it will work for you, but it might!

Cheers!

 

[Bobby_M]

DAAB, Just to clarify, I'm not sparging more, just more times in smaller increments. There have been great debates involving the theory of course, but when I try your method with my desired preboil volume ~7.25g (based on a 70 minute boil and desired post boil of 6 gallons (12 on a double batch), my second sparge runnings always measure 1.020 - 1.025. It doesn't take a scientist to see a loss of efficiency there. Splitting my overall sparge infusions (including one boiling temp mash out infusion) to make 3 equal runnings gets that last batch gravity down near 1.010 which is the desired threshold between efficiency and tannin extraction. I'd love to say I've tested this over countless batches but I've only tried each method a couple times so far. In any case, I just wanted to document my findings in case anyone wants to try it for themselves (and report their findings here of course).

 

[FSR402]

DAAB, Just to clarify, I'm not sparging more, just more times in smaller increments. There have been great debates involving the theory of course, but when I try your method with my desired preboil volume ~7.25g (based on a 70 minute boil and desired post boil of 6 gallons (12 on a double batch), my second sparge runnings always measure 1.020 - 1.025. It doesn't take a scientist to see a loss of efficiency there. Splitting my overall sparge infusions (including one boiling temp mash out infusion) to make 3 equal runnings gets that last batch gravity down near 1.010 which is the desired threshold between efficiency and tannin extraction. I'd love to say I've tested this over countless batches but I've only tried each method a couple times so far. In any case, I just wanted to document my findings in case anyone wants to try it for themselves (and report their findings here of course).

I have only done two AG brews so far. Both I did without a mash-out and two equal val. sparges. One I hit 79% the other 66%. The 79% I mixed the grains again before draining the 66% I did not.
Not really sure if that had anything to do with it or not. But I have two more brews coming up and I will try it again.

 

[DAAB]

You should always give the mash a stir once you've added the water, it raises the temperature of the grain bed evenly and helps liquefy the sugars. I find it also helps clear the run off quicker, possibly because the grain bed is more fluid and settles more readily.

Running of in 2 batches is a very quick method of collecting the wort to. I was a confirmed fly sparger at one point but after knocking a significant amount of time off the brewday I couldn't go back, even if it does mean i've dropped a few points and that seems to be the general consensus.

(btw, fwiw, another big time saver I found was switching from an immersion to a stainless/copper brazed plate chiller, I found a cheap one (new) on on Ebay from a central heating boiler and converted it. Worth considering if you are short on time.

 

[Bobby_M]

On today's batch, I really didn't have much room for a mashout addition so I tried a no mash out, double sparge where the sparge water was hot enough to get the grain bed up to 166F in the first infusion (180F infusion by the way). That running was 1.042. Then I added another batch infusion at 170F and those runnings were 1.022. I obviously left some sugars behind but preboil efficiency was 87.5% Woah. I'm positive that if I threw a gallon of boiling water in for a mash out that I would have broke 90%.

 

[Beerrific]

I know you have said before but I am too drunk to do a decent search, do you just take your sparge volume and split it?

I would like to up my efficiency a bit but can only boil 6.75gallons of wort, so I can't effectively sparge with normal volume twice and boil down.

 

[Bobby_M]

Yeah, this time with no mash out, I just split the sparge volume that would get me to my desired preboil. If I mashed out, I'd subract that mash out from the total sparge volume, but still split the remaining volume in two.

 

[Beerrific]

Great, thanks. I have been doing a single batch sparge with a mash out and I get 70% consistently. If I could raise that a bit until I get my own mill I would be very happy.

 

[Orfy]

Bobby,

I think it's about time people stopped questioning if Batch sparging is as effiecient as fly sparging. Depending on how much time and care I put into it I can get anywhere from around 80% to my best of 92%.

I expect people to call BS on the 92% but that's up to them.

I think next time I brew I'll try a hot mash out with the last gallon of sparge water and see if it makes a difference becasue my last runnings are also usually quite high unless I go over my volume.

 

[JeffNYC]

I haven't been mashing out for my batch sparging. My efficiency is poor (sub 70%), so this thread has been helpful. Can you clarify your strike, mashout, sparge volumes? I'm struggling (with Beersmith) to be able to get sparge amounts that look reasonable. Assuming a mashout option, for 15 lbs of grain I get something like this:

Strike 4.7 gallons
Mashout 2.6 gallons
Sparge 1.1 gallons

Using the batch sparge option (no mash out here) I get this:

Strike 4.7 gallons
Sparge 1 1.9 gallons
Sparge 2 1.9 gallons


Perhaps this is a Beersmith question, I must be missing something. I haven't looked at the source formulas for things for a while, guess I'll have to hit the books this weekend.

 

[Orfy]

The driving force behind the volumes you use are driven by 2 main things.
Your grain to water ratio. and the size of you mash tun.
To get the correct figures from BeerSmith you have to set up your equipment correctly.
You then get out what you put in minus grain absorption plus dead space.
This is your first runnings.
You know what your boil volume should be so you know what sparge volume you need.
With my set up I can normally get away with splitting my sparge water over 2 batches.
I get around 6L out of my first runnings so split 24L of sparge water over 2 batches

 

[JeffNYC]

Just some checks to Beersmith:
4.7 gallons strike for 15 lbs of grain (1.25 quarts to one pound)
1.3 gallons absorbed (between 0.8 gallons to 1 gallon per 10 pounds)
=3.4 gallons first runnings

Having sparge = first running means 3.4 sparge (if done in two that's 1.7 each). That yields 6.8 gallons to boil, pretty close what Beersmith has me doing.

Question is: How do I mash out and yet have enough water left to sparge (and only getting 6.8 gallons. Do I just sparge with less than above? Sparging with 1 gallon (per Beersmith after using a mash out) seems wrong.

What am I missing?

 

[Orfy]

Use your second batch to mash out.

 

[Bobby_M]

Ok, so my interpretation of mashout is really about heating the mash into the mid to upper 160F area before first runnings whether you're direct firing, decocting, or infusing. Those of us with cooler MLTs, infusion is the only way. Using beertoolspro, I can tell it I want to infuse into an existing mash with a fixed temp and volume. It will tell me what the new temp will be. Since I can also input and lock in my desired preboil volume, it will subtract the mash out infusion from the 2-batch sparge volumes. By the way, you can go a little thicker on your mash to make room for at least some of the mash out infusion (maybe 1.1 qt/lb).

Here's a rundown of last night's volumes:
Mash 21lbs with 6.5g (1.24qt/lb).
First runnings were 3.5 gallons at 1.075.
Batch 1, 5 gallons @ 178, settled to 166. Running 5.25 @ 1.042.
Batch 2, 4gal @160. Runnings 4.25gal @ 1.022.
Preboil total was 13 gallons @ 1.050 for 87.5% effeciency.

Now, let's say I did have room for a one gallon mashout infusion. I'd just reduce the two batches by 1/2 gallon each.

I think even a one gallon infusion of boiling water will increase efficiency because you're making that sugar more soluable from the start. However, the alternative and next best thing is getting the grain bed up in temp as soon as you can (if not mashout before first runnings, then at least in the first batch infusion).

 

[Orfy]

How about doing a mash out before sparging?

Drain, add the mashout water then sparge?

 

[Bobby_M]

Another trick would be to decoct... maybe a pain.. but drain 1 gallon out of the mash at the end, bring to boil, add back in to mash, stir, vorlauf and drain. I'm 99% sure the gravity of that first running will be increased.

 

[Orfy]

I may do a simple brew tomorrow and try a different method to see what happens.

I think I'll Drain a gallon of the first runnings then add a gallon of boiling water.
Drain immediately then sparge as normal.

 

[FlyGuy]

If you can't fit a mash out infusion in the cooler, then another option might be to heat your sparge water very hot so that it brings the grainbed up to 168 or so, at least on the first sparge (if you intend to do two or more). That might be a good substitute.

I am sold on mash-outs, and Bobby's experiences confirm my experience (that's reassuring). I would submit two pieces of advice, as well, to those mashing in a cooler MLT. First, accommodating a mash-out plus a sparge is going to require a big cooler, so don't cheap out if you are building a mash tun. Second, this is a great example of where steam infusion (see my sig below) can be really helpful if you have a cooler MLT. Unfortunately, this option gets overlooked all the time as an alternative to hot water infusion for step-mashing and mash-outs.

 

[Bobby_M]

Flyguy, I think there's a psychological barrier to steam and maybe it's somewhat justified in that requires a bit more equipment, etc for a somewhat minimal gain (arguable).

I did just confirm that a HOT first batch sparge is nearly as good as a mash out (maybe even better because this particular time I hit 1.5% better efficiency).

At a few efficiency points here or there, we're really splitting hairs for the sake of experimentation. I don't want anyone to think I really care that much about less than 5% up or down.

I stand by the motto that you should get your mash/grainbed up in temp as high as 169F as soon as you can and for the duration of the sparge if you really want good numbers. Yes, you walk a fine line with astringency but there are tradeoffs in everything. As a secondary factor, breaking down your sparge infusions into more/smaller volume increments seems to have a benefit as well at the price of increased time (vorlauf). You start creeping up on the time like that and you might as well continuous sparge.

 

[FlyGuy]

Flyguy, I think there's a psychological barrier to steam and maybe it's somewhat justified in that requires a bit more equipment, etc for a somewhat minimal gain (arguable).

Yeah, I think you are right about the psychological barrier for sure. Regarding the 'minimal' gain -- I disagree there. Lots of guys drop plenty of cash to upgrade to a three keggle system, with stand, pumps, extra burners, etc. just to have the capability to do a step mash without having to do multiple infusions in their cooler. My $30 steam system allows me to do step mashes at least as easily as all that. Anyways, I think you meant using steam just for a mash-out, which now that I read your comment below, makes more sense.

I did just confirm that a HOT first batch sparge is nearly as good as a mash out (maybe even better because this particular time I hit 1.5% better efficiency).

That is a really useful piece of information, especially if one has maxed out their cooler and can't fit in a mash out. It also is one less step. I will definitely try this. I am also going to try it in combination with a split sparge -- even though a mash-out plus one big sparge worked better for me, I suspect that this technique could work better. Thanks for experimenting and sharing with us all!

I stand by the motto that you should get your mash/grainbed up in temp as high as 169F as soon as you can and for the duration of the sparge if you really want good numbers. Yes, you walk a fine line with astringency but there are tradeoffs in everything.

Yes, I think this is true as well. I am going to continue to experiment as well, to test this 'hypothesis'. But it makes a lot of logical sense -- it is surprising to me that the method isn't more common.

Regarding astringency, unless you are collecting a third sparge, I bet the gravity stays high enough (and theferore, pH low enough) that even if you went over 170 by a bit, it wouldn't lead to tannin extraction. But that is just an hypothesis, as well, based on what should work in theory.

Cheers!

 

[Bobby_M]

I went out of my way this batch to test and take note of the grain bed temp after each infusion and the gravity of each runnings since I'm in experimentation stage. If you play with these different methods I'd suggest you do the same so that we can compare notes and rule out any other effects.

I'd like to do a small batch, maybe just to make starter wort, where the mash out takes the bed temp up to like 190 and maintain that temp through the first sparge. I'll drop the temp for the 2nd sparge as the gravity is dropping. If you don't get astringency there, I bet the efficiency would be quite high. I mean, it's fun to learn things but I'm damned happy with 85% so I'd just as soon stop here.

PS: you're right about my steam mash statement... just in terms of gaining eff, it's a small gain. I had not figured in the ability to step mash cuz I'm not there yet.

 

[JeffNYC]

Ok, so my interpretation of mashout is really about heating the mash into the mid to upper 160F area before first runnings whether you're direct firing, decocting, or infusing. Those of us with cooler MLTs, infusion is the only way. Using beertoolspro, I can tell it I want to infuse into an existing mash with a fixed temp and volume. It will tell me what the new temp will be. Since I can also input and lock in my desired preboil volume, it will subtract the mash out infusion from the 2-batch sparge volumes. By the way, you can go a little thicker on your mash to make room for at least some of the mash out infusion (maybe 1.1 qt/lb).

Here's a rundown of last night's volumes:
Mash 21lbs with 6.5g (1.24qt/lb).
First runnings were 3.5 gallons at 1.075.
Batch 1, 5 gallons @ 178, settled to 166. Running 5.25 @ 1.042.
Batch 2, 4gal @160. Runnings 4.25gal @ 1.022.
Preboil total was 13 gallons @ 1.050 for 87.5% effeciency.

Now, let's say I did have room for a one gallon mashout infusion. I'd just reduce the two batches by 1/2 gallon each.

I think even a one gallon infusion of boiling water will increase efficiency because you're making that sugar more soluable from the start. However, the alternative and next best thing is getting the grain bed up in temp as soon as you can (if not mashout before first runnings, then at least in the first batch infusion).

So the first sparge is the mash out (rather than a separate step as I had done). I just sparge at 168.

How do you calculate the batch 1 sparge water with grains for a given temperature?

 

[Bobby_M]

Jeff, I think it's pretty difficult to figure out the equilized temp given a certain mash + infusion situation. That's why I think purchasing a software package for this is the best bang for the buck at only $20-25. Beersmith and Beertoolspro both help in this regard.
I would have never guessed that adding 5 gallons at 178F would have brought my grainbed up to 166F. Now that I know it does, you could take a wild guess and say that it may equalize at about half way between the mash temp and your sparge infusion temp. The ratios of grain weight and infusion volume obviously play into it.

To say it another way, if you don't do a specific high temp mash out infusion prior to first runnings AND you only sparge with 168-170F water, your grain bed is really not hitting the sugar soluability sweet spot. A first sparge at 170 would probably get it up to 158F and a second one would probably get it to 162F. Yes, it's increasing a bit, but not as much as you could. That assumed threshold of tannin extraction (170F) is about the grain bed temp, not the infusion water temp.

 

[RLinNH]

This thread could not have come at a better time. I have read every detail in Ken Schwartz's piece on Batch Sparging. Yeah, it made sense to me, but I still don't get the calculations for Batch Sparging as he makes it out to be quite the task. Any one have a simpler method for figuring out what your Grain Bill should be if your are going to Batch Sparge?