Multi-step saccrification rests

[Lost1anguage]

Hey everyone. Have a question for who'll ever listen.

I brewed a old ale about 10 days ago, this was the first time I was able to use a direct heat mash in my setup, I was excited. I had derived via Palmer's "How to Brew" website that I should jump full into this process and take advantage of several "rest" points on my way to wort. My reading of his material lead me to concluded that it was to my benefit to pause for a certain amount of time in a prime Beta-Amalyse temp zone (140) and then jump up to the prime Alpha-Amalyse zone (158).

Anyways I spent about 45 minutes at 140-145 and then about 25 minutes at 156-160, then mashed out and drained the kettle. I boiled and finished as I usually do, got an extremely efficient end result, dumped it into my fermenting vessel, and pitched the yeast (starter prepared) and watched it over the next few days go nuts. I though I was all set.

I took a gravity reading after about 7 days (about 2 days after the bubbly furry had subsided) and it looks like I've gotten about 35% apparent attenuation from my WLP099 high gravity yeast, instead of the 85+ I was expecting.

So my question(s) is/are:

1) Does it benefit a mash to rest a bit in the beta zone first, then in the alpha zone

2) Should I be concerned that after 5 days of fermentation I've only achieved 35%?

3) Did I rest to low for beta, and therefore convert all my sugar into non-fermentables?

4) Is there anything I can do about that (if it is the case) other than wait?

 

[VikingChrisColby]

Most malts these days are malted with the idea that they will be used in single infusion mash. Unless you buy undermodified malt or have some specific reason to do a step mash (such as aiming for producing a highly fermentable wort), doing a step mash is going to be extra work and can have a net negative result. (Nothing catastrophic, but you can end up decreasing your foam with some step mashes. You should be fine with yours.) For an old ale, a single infusion mash (with a mash out) would likely have been your best bet.

To answer your questions:
1.) If you want to increase your fermentability —*for example, when making a very dry beer — a step mash with a long rest in the low 140s °F, followed by a second rest in the upper 150s °F, will work well. For a regular full-bodied beer, you're better off with a single infusion mash in the low 150s °F.
2.) Let the fermentation run to completion, then check to see if there is anything to worry about.
3.) The temperature of your first rest was fine (presuming you were aiming to produce a highly fermentable wort). Sugar does not get converted to non-fermentables. Starch (which is not usable by yeast) gets broken down into sugars during the mash.
4.) Just wait it out, everything will likely be fine. Good luck.


Chris Colby
Editor
beerandwinejournal.com

 

[dobe12]

I have to disagree that everything is fine. After 7 days you should have reach final gravity or at the very least, you should be very close to it. If you only have 35% attenuation after a week, something is wrong.

 

[bajaedition]

OK
You did good experimenting with the multi steps

What was the PH of the mash?

now a little about step mashes, And do not let anyone talk you out of them, the benefits are there

I am writing up a schedule and will post it soon

 

[stpug]

Word of Caution: If you are using a refractometer to measure your level of attenuation then you may be running into the all-to-familiar error of not correcting for alcohol, which can be mostly alleviated by using an online/beersmith calculator that corrects for this. The better solution would be to make sure you're measuring your current gravity using a hydrometer - it's much less prone to error.

 

[Lost1anguage]

No refractor, I'm using a tried and true floating hydrometer.

I did not monitor my mash PH, I have partaken in several single infusion mashes and never had a problem before netting the results I wanted. I would imagine that the time I spend below my saccrification rest in the beta-glucanase and protein rest did not affect my overall mash efficiency as I netted out a very favorable result. I hit ~85% mash efficiency on my 16 lbs! I never hit that before, so I imagine I mashed correctly but am just unsure why my fermentation is stalled out.

OG was 1.096 The reading I took was ~1.058. I made a 2L starter of 1.036 so I think I was covered as far as quantity of yeast goes. This is however my first time using washed yeast, but I assume that because I successfully cultivated it in a starter, that whatever problem I may be encountering isn't in the yeast.

 

[bajaedition]

Step infusions

Temps
These are optimal temps,

86 to 126, Phytase, lowers the PH of the mash (most brewers do not do a Phytase step}
95 to 112 Debranching, increases the solubility of the starches you are targeting
95 to 113 Beta Glucaneese, breaks down heavy gummy starches so they can be worked on during scarification steps, works best for wheat adjunts such as corn and less modified malts
113 to 131 Pepidase, breaks free amino nitrogen into the wort, helps in fermenting
113 to 133 Protienasa, breaks down protiens, well modified malts do not need this rest
133 to 140 Limit Dextrinase, the enzyme to work on the long starches of the amylopectins, above 149 this enzyme is deactivated
140 to 150 Beta Amylase, makes the maltose sugars you are looking for, above 160 it is deactivated
150 to 160 Alpha Amylase, those are the old figures, it is optimal at 158 to 170 and deactivates at 176, not to say 150 to 160 do not work, just research goes on. It makes maltose and a lot of other sugars as it goes along, those other sugars are not fermentable and cause body to be in the beer

I am not going into PH here, PH between 5.2 and 5.8 are what these all work in. different ones like different PH to be

So you can see that at different temps different things go on,
Highly modified malt means the need to do protein rest is not really there. But as you can see there are other factors involved at those temperature.

I dough in for 15minutes at 100 degrees or so, to debranch. If you look closeI also have Beta Glucaneese working on those heavy starches.

Then I go to 130 for 15 minutes slowly raising the temp to 135, as you can see by the chart, all kinds of stuff is going on
I then hit somewhere between 148 and 154 for an hour, the majority of scarification to take place
A higher temp rest has proven to me that I get more body and less fermentation.

Ok this next paragraph is in laymans terms and can be interperated wrong by those wanting it in chemistry terms, so just live with it

The way the 3 enzymes work here, Limit Dextinase, Beta Amylase and Alpha Amylase is what you need to understand, each attacks starches in a different method and needs the help of each other to be optimal in the mash. Beta Amylase works from the end, unlike the others who work from the middle, so as the other 2 break things down, they are not breaking down into maltose at every break such as Beta Amylase is, but each time they break down a starch they create a new end for the Beta Amylase to work on. Therefore a rest in the area that works Alpha and Beta best at the same time us what is most common. Somewhere between 145 and 156 .

Multi step infusions are a valuable way to take control of your brewing.
Single infusion mashes are about as useful as brewing from extract IMHO.

Hope this helps

 

[VikingChrisColby]

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. Mashing is an extension of malting, and the only things you need to accomplish in the mash are those left undone by the maltster. (Degrading the starch in the endosperm of the grains into sugars is your main objective.). Let's take it step by step:
1.) acid rest (phytase) -- unless you're using undermodified malt, this enzyme was denatured by the maltster in the kiln. And, it's total waste of time even if you are using undermodified malt as it can take hours to adjust the mash pH and there are many simpler ways to do this (including adding acidulated malt, acid, or making the proper mineral additions to your water).
2.) beta-glucanase rest -- excess beta-glucans (gums) should be taken care of by the maltster. If you're having problems lautering from gummy malt (unlikely), or you are brewing with rye, this rest might be beneficial. If not, it's a waste of time.
3.) the "protein rests" -- unless you're using undermodified malt, you have no reason to do this, as the maltster should have already modified the malt to a suitable degree; you can even lose foam (by degrading key foam positive proteins) by resting too long at some temperatures within this range.
4.) separate alpha and beta amylase rests -- unless you're trying to make a dry beer, this is just making things procedurally more complicated than they need to be; a single infusion rest in the 148–162 °F range until an iodine test indicates a negative result is fine for most beers. (A long rest in the low 140s °F, followed by a fairly quick rest in the high 150s °F will work well for making a dry beer.)
Besides the extra time (and propane) it takes to do a complicated multi-step mash program, the contact time with the husks is increased, potentially increasing the tannins in your beer (especially if your mash pH is on the high side).
Mashing is an extension of malting. The mash program you choose should take into consideration what malts you are using and what type of beer you are making. There is no "one size fits all" mash program for every grain bill and every beer. If you want to make an English ale (such as an old ale), use US or UK 2-row pale malt or UK 2-row pale ale malt and use a single infusion mash. That's appropriate for the beer style and the malt was malted (by the maltster -- say that three times fast) with the idea that it would be used for a single infusion mash.


Chris Colby
Editor
beerandwinejournal.com

 

[mbobhat]

My amateur guess is that your beta amylase was inactivated by waiting too long at the beta rest. I have the book Brewing here by Michael Lewis and Tom Young and at your 145F(63C) your beta was probably 80% inactivated by the time you went up to your higher Alpha rest. Since alpha and beta work together, beta only got a portion of the starches available to it. Once you went to the alpha rest it was able to work again because the starches got broken up, but it was too late for beta to work. According to the book, beta is far more fragile than alpha at any given temperature.

If you kept your beta rest for say 20 min and then went up, my guess is your wort would be more fermentable.

EDIT: I'm reading more and more in this book, it is pretty decent, thanks for making me dig it up!!!

BTW the book says if you wanna do a Beta stand to increase beta amylase and have a more fermentable wort, it says a temp around 55C (130ish) will allow beta to survive into the alpha temperature raise. Learn somethin' new every day!!

 

[dobe12]

Step infusions


Single infusion mashes are about as useful as brewing from extract IMHO.

Hope this helps

This comment is extremely short sighted and I'll add misguided.

I realize adding that little "IMHO" puts this in the undebatable category, but I'll do it anyway. Not sure how you can say this... other than, it's opinion. Extract gives you set percentages of grains used and set gravities. Forgetting about the grain bill (which of course holds an endless possibility of combinations) there are TONS of factors associated with single infusion mashing that aren't options when using extract. Most importantly mash temp, but also mash thickness, mash time, sparging times and amounts. Water chemistry, color control with longer or shorter boils, etc.

 

[stpug]

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. Mashing is an extension of malting, and the only things you need to accomplish in the mash are those left undone by the maltster. (Degrading the starch in the endosperm of the grains into sugars is your main objective.). Let's take it step by step:
1.) acid rest (phytase) -- unless you're using undermodified malt, this enzyme was denatured by the maltster in the kiln. And, it's total waste of time even if you are using undermodified malt as it can take hours to adjust the mash pH and there are many simpler ways to do this (including adding acidulated malt, acid, or making the proper mineral additions to your water).
2.) beta-glucanase rest -- excess beta-glucans (gums) should be taken care of by the maltster. If you're having problems lautering from gummy malt (unlikely), or you are brewing with rye, this rest might be beneficial. If not, it's a waste of time.
3.) the "protein rests" -- unless you're using undermodified malt, you have no reason to do this, as the maltster should have already modified the malt to a suitable degree; you can even lose foam (by degrading key foam positive proteins) by resting too long at some temperatures within this range.
4.) separate alpha and beta amylase rests -- unless you're trying to make a dry beer, this is just making things procedurally more complicated than they need to be; a single infusion rest in the 148–162 °F range until an iodine test indicates a negative result is fine for most beers. (A long rest in the low 140s °F, followed by a fairly quick rest in the high 150s °F will work well for making a dry beer.)
Besides the extra time (and propane) it takes to do a complicated multi-step mash program, the contact time with the husks is increased, potentially increasing the tannins in your beer (especially if your mash pH is on the high side).
Mashing is an extension of malting. The mash program you choose should take into consideration what malts you are using and what type of beer you are making. There is no "one size fits all" mash program for every grain bill and every beer. If you want to make an English ale (such as an old ale), use US or UK 2-row pale malt or UK 2-row pale ale malt and use a single infusion mash. That's appropriate for the beer style and the malt was malted (by the maltster -- say that three times fast) with the idea that it would be used for a single infusion mash.


Chris Colby
Editor
beerandwinejournal.com

^^This post really saddened my day. I was living a happy (ignorant) life prior to reading this, and now I have to figure out a way to carry on knowing what I wish I didn't.

 

[Denny]

I was gonna post what a load of hoo-haw it was to do all those rests, but I think Chris has sufficiently covered it.

 

[bajaedition]

This comment is extremely short sighted and I'll add misguided.

I realize adding that little "IMHO" puts this in the undebatable category, but I'll do it anyway. Not sure how you can say this... other than, it's opinion. Extract gives you set percentages of grains used and set gravities. Forgetting about the grain bill (which of course holds an endless possibility of combinations) there are TONS of factors associated with single infusion mashing that aren't options when using extract. Most importantly mash temp, but also mash thickness, mash time, sparging times and amounts. Water chemistry, color control with longer or shorter boils, etc.

I will give you that
but you forget,you can steep specialty grains

in the end, with a single step, or an extract the result is extract of sugar
we have additives to affect the proteins etc. we have learned to make specialty grains to emulate mouthfeel. Extract brewers are proving to win many brew compitiions that were once rules by all grain brewers because they have learned to work with what is available to them and and that has grown to a level to put us there. Single step infusions control sugar sacification and a part of the mouthfeel. That is possible in extract. A multi step mash does that and can be used to effect up to 5 other processes in the brewing. That is where I base my opinion.

Now it is an opinion, so take it like it is, but you have to admit single step infusions are just touching the possibilities of what you can do in a mash. Experiment some, you might just like it.

 

[Beergnomes]

I have to disagree that everything is fine. After 7 days you should have reach final gravity or at the very least, you should be very close to it. If you only have 35% attenuation after a week, something is wrong.

I don't hit final gravity in 7 days ever. My current ales are in primary for 7-10 days then after dumping sit for another 2 weeks, then after priming sit another 4 - 6 weeks to properly bottle condition and peek. Can't rush everything, they can continue to drop a point or 2 even in the bottle.

 

[Denny]

I will give you that
but you forget,you can steep specialty grains

in the end, with a single step, or an extract the result is extract of sugar
we have additives to affect the proteins etc. we have learned to make specialty grains to emulate mouthfeel. Extract brewers are proving to win many brew compitiions that were once rules by all grain brewers because they have learned to work with what is available to them and and that has grown to a level to put us there. Single step infusions control sugar sacification and a part of the mouthfeel. That is possible in extract. A multi step mash does that and can be used to effect up to 5 other processes in the brewing. That is where I base my opinion.

Now it is an opinion, so take it like it is, but you have to admit single step infusions are just touching the possibilities of what you can do in a mash. Experiment some, you might just like it.

I have experimented with over a hundred mashes (followed by blind triangle tastings) and found no advantage to most step mash schedules and even detriments with some. Your blanket opinion flies in the face of the science of malting. I suggest you take take your own advice and do some serious testing.

 

[dobe12]

I will give you that
but you forget,you can steep specialty grains

in the end, with a single step, or an extract the result is extract of sugar
we have additives to affect the proteins etc. we have learned to make specialty grains to emulate mouthfeel. Extract brewers are proving to win many brew compitiions that were once rules by all grain brewers because they have learned to work with what is available to them and and that has grown to a level to put us there. Single step infusions control sugar sacification and a part of the mouthfeel. That is possible in extract. A multi step mash does that and can be used to effect up to 5 other processes in the brewing. That is where I base my opinion.

Now it is an opinion, so take it like it is, but you have to admit single step infusions are just touching the possibilities of what you can do in a mash. Experiment some, you might just like it.

First, I never questioned the validity of extract brewing or how good of a beer you can make from it. You kinda lead this discussion down that road for reasons I don't understand.

And yes, I do understand your last comment, but again, you're straying from your shortsighted comment that a single infusion mash is the same as extract brewing.

My point is, the difference in the amount of control you have over a finished beer when comparing single infusion mash and extract isn't even a discussion. I also agree with your point that multi-step mashes take it a step further (and yes, I occasionally do multi-step infusion mashes), but to say that single infusion mashing is no different than extract brewing is just a silly comment. You may possibly be giving a new all grain brewer some very bad info.

I'll also point to the other comments here on how useless many of the steps are that have been written about. These guys have forgotten more about brewing than I currently understand. Denny seconding the details of mash steps and what are and are not necessary is all I needed to hear.

 

[bajaedition]

sorry, had to get my popcorn popped, this is going be very interesting.

continue on, I am reading all

you see, I have planted a seed here

you cannot deny the benefits of rest during mashing. You can deny if you do them, but not if they are of benefit. you can claim you do not have to, but you cannot deny there is a benefit

information is a powerful thing, what people do with it is the key

I think enough people will take off with it

the rest will try to either deny it or stop guys from taking off with it

Professional breweries in the modern age have taken the info and compared it to cost, it is cheaper to do this and that. We however have the ability to ignore cost. After all, if we wanted to do it modern ways why not just brew up to 14% and water down at bottling?

the rest have been published. and their benefits. deny they work now

 

[Yooper]

I was gonna post what a load of hoo-haw it was to do all those rests, but I think Chris has sufficiently covered it.

Agreed. Although a very adjunct laden grist may benefit a bit from a beta glucanase rest, I think that using lautering tools like rice hulls or even BIAB may easily make the sticky/problematic lautering go away in a high percentage of rye or wheat in the recipe.

I don't hit final gravity in 7 days ever. My current ales are in primary for 7-10 days then after dumping sit for another 2 weeks, then after priming sit another 4 - 6 weeks to properly bottle condition and peek. Can't rush everything, they can continue to drop a point or 2 even in the bottle.

I think it's a problem to never hit FG in 7 days. I can see a few beers not fully attenuating in 7 days, but if that's a routine thing I'd look at yeast pitching rates, aerating the wort better, temperature control, etc, for yeast health. A "regular" ale often is at FG in 5 days if properly pitched and fermented, although not always.

I'm routinely drinking APAs by about day 17. I can't imagine leaving them in the fermenter for 3-4 weeks and then 4-6 weeks to properly condition. Some beers would be past their peak and on the downhill slide by then.

I am concerned that the OP states that this beer is only at 35% attenuating. That makes me consider underpitching, underaerating, etc- some other reason for the poor attenuation and poor fermentation that is probably related to yeast health and not the mash schedule. With such a high OG, a 2L starter would be insufficient.

 

[dobe12]

I don't hit final gravity in 7 days ever. My current ales are in primary for 7-10 days then after dumping sit for another 2 weeks, then after priming sit another 4 - 6 weeks to properly bottle condition and peek. Can't rush everything, they can continue to drop a point or 2 even in the bottle.

Hitting final gravity and how long a beer stays in primary/secondary are not the same thing. And yes, most beers will hit final gravity in under 7 days. How do you think breweries turn beer around so quickly? I do agree that leaving your fully fermented beer on the yeast cake for a total of 2-3 weeks is good idea, but that doesn't mean active fermentation is continuing the entire time.

I'm going to have to disagree with you and even suggest you still have a few things to learn about fermentation. By no means am I an expert, but your comments are inaccurate.

PS: If the gravity in your bottled beer continues to drop after bottling, then you are bottling too early (which goes against your entire post, but whatever) and you need to be careful. Those bottles are dangerous.

 

[Denny]

sorry, had to get my popcorn popped, this is going be very interesting.

continue on, I am reading all

you see, I have planted a seed here

you cannot deny the benefits of rest during mashing. You can deny if you do them, but not if they are of benefit. you can claim you do not have to, but you cannot deny there is a benefit

information is a powerful thing, what people do with it is the key

I think enough people will take off with it

the rest will try to either deny it or stop guys from taking off with it

Professional breweries in the modern age have taken the info and compared it to cost, it is cheaper to do this and that. We however have the ability to ignore cost. After all, if we wanted to do it modern ways why not just brew up to 14% and water down at bottling?

the rest have been published. and their benefits. deny they work now

Since you asked, I deny they have any benefit. And I speak from experience, not from what's been published.

 

[Denny]

Agreed. Although a very adjunct laden grist may benefit a bit from a beta glucanase rest, I think that using lautering tools like rice hulls or even BIAB may easily make the sticky/problematic lautering go away in a high percentage of rye or wheat in the recipe.

And above all, it depends on your lautering system. With mine, I have never had a stuck runoff in 451 (so far) batches. I don't need beta glucan rests or rice hulls.

 

[Yooper]

And above all, it depends on your lautering system. With mine, I have never had a stuck runoff in 451 (so far) batches. I don't need beta glucan rests or rice hulls.

And, I need rice hulls in many of my recipes with my false bottom and pump set up- no wheat or rye needed for me to have some grainbed compaction problems and a stuck sparge!

But that has nothing to do with a protease or beta glucanase rest, and all to do with my (stupid) false bottom in the keg set up.

 

[bajaedition]

Since you asked, I deny they have any benefit. And I speak from experience, not from what's been published.

I can accept your defeat

 

[Beergnomes]

Hitting final gravity and how long a beer stays in primary/secondary are not the same thing. And yes, most beers will hit final gravity in under 7 days. How do you think breweries turn beer around so quickly? I do agree that leaving your fully fermented beer on the yeast cake for a total of 2-3 weeks is good idea, but that doesn't mean active fermentation is continuing the entire time.

I'm going to have to disagree with you and even suggest you still have a few things to learn about fermentation. By no means am I an expert, but your comments are inaccurate.

PS: If the gravity in your bottled beer continues to drop after bottling, then you are bottling too early (which goes against your entire post, but whatever) and you need to be careful. Those bottles are dangerous.

I brew higher gravity ales finishing at 6.5 - 7.2 abv, my pitching rates are correct and British ales like mine don't get carbed above 2. I like mine around 1.75. I add my priming sugar directly into my fermenter after doing a dump, gently stir and wait 20 min then bottle. My ales average 21-24 days 7-10 primary, dump, 14 secondary. For the style I am currently concentrating on, this method works brilliantly. I only mentioned that a beer can drop 1-2 points in bottle conditioning because some do and by intent even. I have personally never checked gravity after priming but I do know that my style tastes better at 6 weeks in bottle than it does 3 or 4. My next style will be a Scottish and my technique will change accordingly.

 

[Beergnomes]

I brew higher gravity ales finishing at 6.5 - 7.2 abv, my pitching rates are correct and British ales like mine don't get carbed above 2. I like mine around 1.75. I add my priming sugar directly into my fermenter after doing a dump, gently stir and wait 20 min then bottle. My ales average 21-24 days 7-10 primary, dump, 14 secondary. For the style I am currently concentrating on, this method works brilliantly. I only mentioned that a beer can drop 1-2 points in bottle conditioning because some do and by intent even. I have personally never checked gravity after priming but I do know that my style tastes better at 6 weeks in bottle than it does 3 or 4. My next style will be a Scottish and my technique will change accordingly.

And yes I have loads to learn but my gravity continues to slowly drop during secondary. Have I misunderstood that final gravity is when it stops dropping all together? Btw I am asking earnestly not being a smart arse.

 

[Lost1anguage]

My amateur guess is that your beta amylase was inactivated by waiting too long at the beta rest. I have the book Brewing here by Michael Lewis and Tom Young and at your 145F(63C) your beta was probably 80% inactivated by the time you went up to your higher Alpha rest. Since alpha and beta work together, beta only got a portion of the starches available to it. Once you went to the alpha rest it was able to work again because the starches got broken up, but it was too late for beta to work. According to the book, beta is far more fragile than alpha at any given temperature.

If you kept your beta rest for say 20 min and then went up, my guess is your wort would be more fermentable.

EDIT: I'm reading more and more in this book, it is pretty decent, thanks for making me dig it up!!!

BTW the book says if you wanna do a Beta stand to increase beta amylase and have a more fermentable wort, it says a temp around 55C (130ish) will allow beta to survive into the alpha temperature raise. Learn somethin' new every day!!

So this is confusing to me, if I was in a temp range that was perfect for beta, how did it go inactive? Shouldn't it have converted what was available then continued convert the remnants of the alpha enzyme as I got into the higher temps for the alpha rest? I mean while i'm sitting at 140-145 I'm going through periods where I'm heating the lower volume of the mash then mixing it into the rest. Shouldn't that zone have some alpha conversion in it?

Also, aren't all the zones for optimum conversion just that? I mean don't they somewhat work when you're slightly outside the zones as well? Aren't I going to get some alpha conversion at 145, and some beta conversion at 156?

 

[Denny]

And, I need rice hulls in many of my recipes with my false bottom and pump set up- no wheat or rye needed for me to have some grainbed compaction problems and a stuck sparge!

But that has nothing to do with a protease or beta glucanase rest, and all to do with my (stupid) false bottom in the keg set up.

Yep!

 

[Denny]

I can accept your defeat

Ya know, guy, this isn't a battle. it's an exchange of info meant to benefit everyone who reads it.

 

[Denny]

So this is confusing to me, if I was in a temp range that was perfect for beta, how did it go inactive? Shouldn't it have converted what was available then continued convert the remnants of the alpha enzyme as I got into the higher temps for the alpha rest? I mean while i'm sitting at 140-145 I'm going through periods where I'm heating the lower volume of the mash then mixing it into the rest. Shouldn't that zone have some alpha conversion in it?

Also, aren't all the zones for optimum conversion just that? I mean don't they somewhat work when you're slightly outside the zones as well? Aren't I going to get some alpha conversion at 145, and some beta conversion at 156?

 

[mbobhat]

Wow this thread has a lot of action! Don't mess with Denny or Yooper ya'll! They know their stuff it goes without sayin'.

My point about the beta rest being too long is that you need some beta to be around when you go up. Beta doesn't last that long and denatures pretty quick, which is why most people say that a lot of conversion happens in the first 20 min or so. I didn't really know how long it took until I whipped out the book.

If you got high OG but the FG really doesn't drop and your yeast was good(assuming here) then you have mostly non-fermentables. Which is what gave me the thought that you converted all of your sugar available at the beta rest, but not all the starch was soluble at that point.

So if you miss the shot for beta to get at those longer starches because they weren't in solution(available to beta to do work) then whatever you got converted when beta is done is all you have in the final beer as fermentables. The other stuff (I'm guessing) is non fermentables from your alpha rest, which gave you high OG.

Which is why most people do the infusion, because you have to have time at each rest as an extra variable that can as you found out be off.

All that stuff up above is just me sayin that there is a time limit to the mash, when you have two rests the clock don't stop, it may last a little longer but not much!:cross: