More flavor out of a wheat beer??

[xjncoguyx]

Made this recipe, and it tasted great and all, but it seemed a little light in flavor. The flavor of the beer was very good, although it just seemed like the flavor wasn't as pronounced as i would've like it. Now im trying to figure out what adjustments can be made to give it a little more substance. Possibly add more grain, mash higher?

Here's the recipe:
Recipe: Hefe #1
Style: Bavarian Weizen (Weissbier)
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 7.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 4.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 13.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
1.00 lb Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 8.7 %
6.00 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 52.2 %
4.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 34.8 %
0.50 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 4.3 %
0.50 oz Hallertauer [4.80%] (60 min) Hops 8.2 IBU
0.50 oz Hallertauer [4.80%] (20 min) Hops 5.0 IBU
1 Pkgs Hefeweizen IV Ale (White Labs #WLP380) Yeast-Wheat

 

[jlpred55]

That looks like a very good recipe to me. It should end up flavorful. You didn't say what you mashed or fermented at. I usually mash my hefe- very similar in recipe, at 153. I ferment it in the upper 60's range. I only use the WLP300. WY3068 Weihenstephan strain. I get very flavorful hefes. You used a different Weihenstephan strain so I can speak for the yeast you used. Perhaps this is the strain they use for the Kristallweizen? That beer I noticed has a lot less of the typcial hefe character to it, could be different strain could be because they strip the yummy yeast out of it.

My main suggestions are add another pound of wheat malt and mash 153 or so. Ferment in the mid 60's and try WLP300. It has PLENTY of flavor.

 

[EBloom97]

Wheat provides a more delicate flavor than barley. Would you say your beer is distinctly less flavorful than a commercial weizen?

 

[pjj2ba]

I think the recipe looks fine. How was your carbonation level? A little extra carbonation can enhance the flavors.

 

[JoMarky]

That looks like a very good recipe to me. It should end up flavorful. You didn't say what you mashed or fermented at. I usually mash my hefe- very similar in recipe, at 153. I ferment it in the upper 60's range. I only use the WLP300. WY3068 Weihenstephan strain. I get very flavorful hefes. You used a different Weihenstephan strain so I can speak for the yeast you used. Perhaps this is the strain they use for the Kristallweizen? That beer I noticed has a lot less of the typcial hefe character to it, could be different strain could be because they strip the yummy yeast out of it.

My main suggestions are add another pound of wheat malt and mash 153 or so. Ferment in the mid 60's and try WLP300. It has PLENTY of flavor.

I second this.

 

[xjncoguyx]

That looks like a very good recipe to me. It should end up flavorful. You didn't say what you mashed or fermented at. I usually mash my hefe- very similar in recipe, at 153. I ferment it in the upper 60's range. I only use the WLP300. WY3068 Weihenstephan strain. I get very flavorful hefes. You used a different Weihenstephan strain so I can speak for the yeast you used. Perhaps this is the strain they use for the Kristallweizen? That beer I noticed has a lot less of the typcial hefe character to it, could be different strain could be because they strip the yummy yeast out of it.

My main suggestions are add another pound of wheat malt and mash 153 or so. Ferment in the mid 60's and try WLP300. It has PLENTY of flavor.

The wlp380 is a bavarian hefe-weisse strain, but more on the clove side than banana, i fermented high to hopefully get a nice balance. I would say primary range was 68-70. The flavor is perfect, i just which it was a little stronger, say a little more pronounced up front, it was almost like a light wheat beer.

http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/strains_wlp380.html

Wheat provides a more delicate flavor than barley. Would you say your beer is distinctly less flavorful than a commercial weizen?

I wouldn't say it was way less flavorful i would say a good description would be it tastes like franziskaner light. I think i may just up the grain bill a little and use the same formulation, maybe mash a little higher. I actually did a protein rest @ ~125 for 30min, then sacc rest @ 152 for 60.

 

[xjncoguyx]

I think the recipe looks fine. How was your carbonation level? A little extra carbonation can enhance the flavors.

Looks good to me.

like i said, maybe a pound more of each base malt will give it a little more oomph. It is a very good beer, just a little lighter than i expected.

 

[xjncoguyx]

Either that, or i might buy a 3 gallon better bottle, make a ~7 Gallon batch, and use wlp380 and 300 To see the differences in the yeast .

 

[mojotele]

You could also try pitching less yeast. If you made a starter, you could make a smaller starter next time or not make a starter at all. That should result in more esters being created during the yeast reproduction cycle.

 

[xjncoguyx]

You could also try pitching less yeast. If you made a starter, you could make a smaller starter next time or not make a starter at all. That should result in more esters being created during the yeast reproduction cycle.

Yeah i made about a 1L starter on a stir plate for about a day, fridged it for a day poured off liquid then pitched the slurry. Not really looking for a more estery flavor, just looking for a little more substance in the beer. The flavor is very good, it just seems watered down.

 

[kryolla]

what was you OG and FG, you got 10.5 lbs of grain so it shouldn't taste watered down

 

[xjncoguyx]

what was you OG and FG, you got 10.5 lbs of grain so it shouldn't taste watered down

Oh i thought it was listed. 1.051~1.012

I know, thats what i don't understand.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

Did you do a single infusion mash?

 

[xjncoguyx]

Did you do a single infusion mash?

No, i already posted the mash technique. Protein rest @ ~125 for 30 min. Sac rest @ 152 for 60min. Everything looks like it should be good, I are confuse

 

[pjj2ba]

Perhaps the the opposite of what I said earlier. Maybe too much carbonation? I think this is why the BMC beers are well carbed, to enhance what little flavors there are. But if you have flavors there maybe the affect is opposite. Along the lines of a nice British mild. Of course wheat beers are supposed to be well carbed. I've had some beers that when I upped the CO2 pressure in the keg, they were crisper, but also a bit thinner.

Next time you pour a glass, let it sit for a couple minutes and see if it changes.

Also, maybe the protein rest was too long? I'm a big fan of PR, but never go over 20 min.

 

[Brocster]

No, i already posted the mash technique. Protein rest @ ~125 for 30 min. Sac rest @ 152 for 60min. Everything looks like it should be good, I are confuse

Sometimes, a thermometer could need calibration, or, you are not getting the exact mash temps you think due to uneven temp profiles in your MLT. Maybe you actually mashed a little lower than you thought giving a less dextrinous wort with higher bet-amylase? I came across a similar situation with my thermometer being off by 2 degrees. I also believe that small variations in technique can have large impact on the flavor profiles of Hefe's.

Example->

My brother and I brewed 2 10 gallon batches of Hefe with a recipe similar to yours. He likes a Hefe with a stronger up-front flavor profile with good hints of banana esters. I like a more crisp style with balanced ester/phenols, maybe even more weighted towards the clove essence.

After a few batches of experimenting, we do a couple of things different.

For my brother, we do not make a starter, we use 20% caramel wheat, 45% german white wheat, and the rest pilsner. We mash at 155 and ferment in the higher 60's.

For me, I stick with a 60/40 white wheat to pilsner grain bill, make a 'normal' starter and mash at 151. I ferment in the lower 60's.

We both use Wyeast 3056 and get two different results, geared towards our goals stated earlier.

I'll post a pic of the two in a bit (too early to drink them!)

Hopefully this helps.

Cheers

 

[xjncoguyx]

Sometimes, a thermometer could need calibration, or, you are not getting the exact mash temps you think due to uneven temp profiles in your MLT. Maybe you actually mashed a little lower than you thought giving a less dextrinous wort with higher bet-amylase? I came across a similar situation with my thermometer being off by 2 degrees. I also believe that small variations in technique can have large impact on the flavor profiles of Hefe's.

Example->

My brother and I brewed 2 10 gallon batches of Hefe with a recipe similar to yours. He likes a Hefe with a stronger up-front flavor profile with good hints of banana esters. I like a more crisp style with balanced ester/phenols, maybe even more weighted towards the clove essence.

After a few batches of experimenting, we do a couple of things different.

For my brother, we do not make a starter, we use 20% caramel wheat, 45% german white wheat, and the rest pilsner. We mash at 155 and ferment in the higher 60's.

For me, I stick with a 60/40 white wheat to pilsner grain bill, make a 'normal' starter and mash at 151. I ferment in the lower 60's.

We both use Wyeast 3056 and get two different results, geared towards our goals stated earlier.

I'll post a pic of the two in a bit (too early to drink them!)

Hopefully this helps.

Cheers

Well i've taking all of the input i've gotten over the past week, and here is what im going to do. My thermo is calibrated pretty well also, i think maybe the issue may have been the long protein+ the sach rest @ ~152. Im going to do a shorter protein rest and sach rest a little higher. I've also added another lb. of wheat to the recipe. So we'll see what happens. I've also adjusted the hop additions, because i didn't realize the last time, the alpha acid %'s were almost a whole point less then what i had in the recipe. So now i should end up with the 15 IBU's that i was supposed to.

Recipe: Wheat You Talkin' Bout Willis (in honor of the late Gary Coleman)
Brewer:
Asst Brewer:
Style: Bavarian Weizen (Weissbier)
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 7.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated Color: 4.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 15.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
0.50 lb Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 4.2 %
7.00 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 58.3 %
4.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 33.3 %
0.50 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 4.2 %
1.00 oz Hallertauer [3.80%] (60 min) Hops 12.6 IBU
0.31 oz Hallertauer [3.80%] (20 min) Hops 2.4 IBU
1 Pkgs Hefeweizen IV Ale (White Labs #WLP380) Yeast-Wheat


Mash Schedule: Wheat Mash
Total Grain Weight: 12.00 lb
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Protein rest Add 12.00 qt of water at 134.7 F 125.0 F 20 min
Sach Rest Add 12.00 qt of water at 192.6 F 156.0 F 60 min

 

[jlpred55]

I pretty much brewed the same recipe yesterday minus the munich w 4 oz melanodin and 6oz acid malt. I hope this new change works out well for you. Good luck

 

[xjncoguyx]

I pretty much brewed the same recipe yesterday minus the munich w 4 oz melanodin and 6oz acid malt. I hope this new change works out well for you. Good luck

Yeah im excited for it, i was pretty excited that it turned out as well as it did, being my 3rd ever brew and 1st ever recipe formulation. I can't wait for brew day tomorrow, i'll probably take some pics. :rockin:

 

[Brocster]

I was thinking about your post......

Do you think that doing a protein rest is needed? If you have modified wheat grain you may be taking a step that is not needed. Also, you may be creating more beta-amylase than intended, creating a more attenuating wort. That may be one reason you do not have the flavor you seek.

I brew a lot of Hefe's and never do a protein rest. No problems with this either.

With your OG/FG, you are getting pretty close to 80% attenuation. You may want to have a FG around 1.016 - 1.018....

Just a thought.

Best to you!

 

[xjncoguyx]

I was thinking about your post......

Do you think that doing a protein rest is needed? If you have modified wheat grain you may be taking a step that is not needed. Also, you may be creating more beta-amylase than intended, creating a more attenuating wort. That may be one reason you do not have the flavor you seek.

I brew a lot of Hefe's and never do a protein rest. No problems with this either.

With your OG/FG, you are getting pretty close to 80% attenuation. You may want to have a FG around 1.016 - 1.018....

Just a thought.

Best to you!

From all the people i've talk to and the things i've read, whenever brewing wheat, a protein rest should be done. I've even had suggested to me that a 4VG rest would also be a good idea. Although using the WLP380 i'll be generating more clove flavor anyway, so the 4VG is unnecessary for this beer. Im assuming the lower mash temp of 152 would've given me the higher attenuation. So im shooting for the higher mash temp in hopes to give me a much fuller up front taste. The mash temp started at 152 and with some heat loss ended up around 150-149. So im sure that had some to do with it now that i look back on it.

 

[greggor]

What about your mill gap? maybe you need a finer crush to get better conversion. just a thought. The recipe looks good and I'll second that I make a lot of wheat beers and never do a protein rest my wheat's always turn out full bodied and never thin with a very similar recipe to the one your using, I'll mash in the 152-154 F range.

 

[944play]

Given any thought to a decoction mash? That or just up the Munich.