More fermentation temperature reproach

[applescrap]

OP, you may want to test out some different yeasts. 34/70 may be the most forgiving lager yeast of all and can ferment at much higher temps than most. I have used it at ale temps with good success but I have also used other yeasts that would throw diacetyl if you looked at it wrong. IMO, using the correct amount of yeast along with holding fermentation temperature constant whether it be warm or cold are the most important factors. Quite honestly the thing that sets a "lager" apart is that it is clean and crisp. This comes traditionally from "lagering" which uses the cold And gravity to drop out or "filter" the unwanted compounds and yeast. My take on this is that a lager can be made without "lagering" at all. I believe that a prolonged rest at higher temps is more important so that the yeast can eat unwanted compounds. After that I think filtering is key. Instead of using gravity and time we can use filter media to do the job quicker. I am working on this as we speak.

Interested in the filter media. Gelatin works really well too right. I never filter or fine. But i can assure you this beer i made was crystal clear coming out of the fermentor after 3 weeks. Little sloppy racking late and then Force carb didn't help its clarity. I could still gelatin in it. It's really clean and crisp and delicious. I'll try a new lager yeast next time. In fact I wouldn't plan on seeing quite a few of these beers from me. At $0.30 a beer I will pretty much always have some around. I'm thinking a helles next.

 

[casualbrewer]

Remember that most of these lager styles are meant to be very clear which relates directly to its crisp clean taste. I have made "crystal clear" beers also but they are not commercial level which is currently my new goal. If you can't read through your beer then it isn't clear enough and in turn is lacking clean crispness. I almost exclusively make lagers so I am in the hunt for the perfect process.

 

[Yooper]

,,,,,,,,,, People are doing 15-minute mashes and 15 minutes boils without negative results. Fermentation temperature is just another aspect that falls in line with this. This process works regardless of one's Brewing knowledge and it's not going away.

Again, you are making big generalizations here.

SOME people are doing 15 minute mashes and boils and are happy with the result. Others don't like the results, due to the lack of maillard reactions in such a short boil. Some don't like the results from a super short mash, and some report a bit of malt flavor. That's ok in a cream ale (as long as conversion was reached) but maybe not in a dopplebock. Or maybe I don't like the body of a 90 minute mash, but also don't like the results for a 15 minute mash. There are reasons for certain techniques, and to dismiss them because you found something that works so well for you, that's great.

If you are thrilled with your process, that is awesome. But I again would say that making generalizations (ie 'this process works for me so it's the way it should always be') is a dangerous business.

 

[applescrap]

My God I didn't dismiss anything or say that this is the way it should always be. Please how about a little offering of positive intention

 

[ncbrewer]

I'm planning on trying this. Brulosopher used normal lager pitching rates (two packets per nominal 5 gallon batch). But I suspect the higher rates for lagers is due to the normally lower fermentation temperature. So at higher temps (mid 60's) the ale pitching rate would apply? What rate did you use?

 

[applescrap]

This glorious dark European lager is very refreshing after being at the pool. You should definitely Brew one or some sort of lager ncbrewer. That's the spirit in all this go for it and share results. I get what you are saying, makes sense really. I pitched a full pack of saflager 34/70. I never get technical on that level. As everyone who knows me knows i dont own a hydrometer. My wife loves this beer very easy drinking. It's killer, no need to control temperature. The yeast as rated by saflager itself says it goes to 71.6 degrees.

View attachment 1472413596856.jpg

 

[applescrap]

Crystal clear 2 days later

View attachment 1472415953006.jpg

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Like you, I question brewing practices presented by experts. John Palmer in how to brew recommended using a secondary fermenter. The consensus now is to leave the beer in the primary. In my opinion the consensus and expert opinions are both fallacy. Easy for easies sake is a benefit. Hard does not equate to better. I've seen the brulosophy experiments and most seem to be inconclusive. Actual science seems as you note independent of the subjectivity of taste to a large degree.

So we make beliefs about was is and isn't good. Based on your posts, I can tell that you believe fast beer is good beer. You may be right, but my gut tells me that a little patience goes a long way. No one here can present real data because in the end the beer could be a figment of the flying spaghetti monsters imagination. The best we can do is correlate our impressions to processes and make decisions about how we are going to act.

Stupid internet. We argue about something, over five pages, so obvious as fermentation temp being important, which it obviously is, yet when I ask a real question about how to get quality ingredients in Phoenix AZ, crickets.

 

[specharka]

Like you, I question brewing practices presented by experts. John Palmer in how to brew recommended using a secondary fermenter. The consensus now is to leave the beer in the primary. In my opinion the consensus and expert opinions are both fallacy. Easy for easies sake is a benefit. Hard does not equate to better. I've seen the brulosophy experiments and most seem to be inconclusive. Actual science seems as you note independent of the subjectivity of taste to a large degree.

So we make beliefs about was is and isn't good. Based on your posts, I can tell that you believe fast beer is good beer. You may be right, but my gut tells me that a little patience goes a long way. No one here can present real data because in the end the beer could be a figment of the flying spaghetti monsters imagination. The best we can do is correlate our impressions to processes and make decisions about how we are going to act.

Stupid internet. We argue about something, over five pages, so obvious as fermentation temp being important, which it obviously is, yet when I ask a real question about how to get quality ingredients in Phoenix AZ, crickets.

We are all figments of His Noodliness.
Ramen

 

[casualbrewer]

Here is my Helles to give you an idea. Used 34/70 with this one. Given its clarity it is crisp and clean. My goal is to make it even more so.

 

[casualbrewer]

Standard American style lager made with 840 which can be very finicky... Definitely cannot ferment this yeast warm! As you can see, the clarity is good but needs more.

 

[Mismost]

@mismost and screwybrewer, thanks for adding your thoughts here, appreciate it. Feeling temp
control is important i ask: Should people not make lagers because they can't control temperature in your opinion?

Man, I can not even tell my dog what to do or not do, much tell people how to brew their beer! Here is South Texas it is just very hard to control temps....it's freaking hot! I've deer hunted in shorts and Crocks many times...there is just no great time to try to brew a lagar down here....nor do I really care to try it.

I don't have a cool basement, I have a shop that is right next door to Hades. Without temp control, I get twangs, flavor lines, somethings in my beers that I don't like. Using temp control, I DO GET BETTER TASTE...if you were here, I'm sure would agree.

Now...let's twist off here a bit. I do a lot of work for a brewery in Shiner Texas (my work is not beer related). I have been over every inch of that brewery and have a good idea of how it works. Giant 3,000 barrel fermenting tanks lined up in rows....every one of them is temp controlled.

Now, they do not have panels of enlightened home brewers evaluating their beers...yet they have won more than a few awards. They do have thousands of paying customers. Those folks say their beer tastes good by spending their money on it. Judgement by pocketbook.

What I am trying to say is if temp control was not important, why would this brewery spend more money to use it to make their beer? Heck, they could save a ton of money if they just listened to your reasoning!

 

[applescrap]

Make a good point mismost, its hotter there than here. We are talking hb not commercial, so dont understand your anecdote. But, you're right they really should consider saving money. At $0.30 a beer i dont plan on changing. Its a pocketbook judgement.

 

[jddevinn]

Home brew yeast don't behave any different than commercial brewery yeast, they are all "bred" from the same source.

 

[applescrap]

Quite a reading list jddevin. 13 pages of these books.

View attachment 1472443373747.jpg

View attachment 1472443383223.jpg

 

[Mismost]

Make a good point mismost, its hotter there than here. We are talking hb not commercial, so dont understand your anecdote. But, you're right they really should consider saving money. At $0.30 a beer i dont plan on changing. Its a pocketbook judgement.

so you're cloning commercial beers as home brewer, how do they compare to the commercial examples? Not that it matters because you wouldn't change anything anyway. AND I think that is great! You home brew for you, your tastes, your time constraints, and pocketbook. Rock on.

There are plenty of us who feel the same way. But, I have to ask....have you actually used temp control yourself? There are other reasons to temp control.

 

[jddevinn]

Quite a reading list jddevin. 13 pages of these books.

And they are broken into categories of relevance and increasing complexity, with not all categories being brewing related. Reading list for "Brewing Module 1" for instance has 5 items, each being only several pages long and free to download. Some items are entire books and are not free.

The 112 page booklet Blue Book On Yeast - Updated Sept 2009 in "Brewing Module 2" would be relevant to the current discussion (technical side of the discussion not the "antidotal" side).

If you like the higher temperature fermentation with this yeast it should still ideally be a process variable that you control (if you care about the final product taste). Fermentation temperature control is neither difficult or expensive (OK, it can be pricey but does not have to be.)

 

[casualbrewer]

I agree with the fermentation temps. Even in the brulosophy exbeeriments at higher temps he still had a control.

 

[pepindavid]

Oh don't get me wrong, I almost always start drinking them immediately after they're carbonated up. I drink it while it lagers, I'm just saying that ultimately it just tastes a lot better after it's lagered for a while.

I have only brewed 9 batches so far, but it has been my consistent observation: I start drinking the beer as soon as it's carbonated (usually 3-4 weeks after brew day), and it's pretty good, but it really gets better with a few more weeks conditioning. My IPA was at its peak 6-8 weeks after brew day, while my Kölsch is at its peak right about now... and it was brewed back in mid-May (so about 14 weeks ago). Too bad I wasn't patient enough and I have only one left.

My guess is that "conditioning" (at any temp) will ensure proper yeast sedimentation (it just happens faster at cold temps), and that's what's important for several styles, especially light, crisp beer.

 

[applescrap]

so you're cloning commercial beers as home brewer, how do they compare to the commercial examples? Not that it matters because you wouldn't change anything anyway. AND I think that is great! You home brew for you, your tastes, your time constraints, and pocketbook. Rock on.

There are plenty of us who feel the same way. But, I have to ask....have you actually used temp control yourself? There are other reasons to temp control.

Appreciate the friendly tone. The first question is a good question and requires I think a little more lengthy answer that I don't have time for right now. I think The Homebrew I have made is fresher. I think i need more water chemistry attention. I'm not really sure I want to compare Homebrew with commercial. A lot of times I haven't tasted the commercial variety because we can't get it like Founders KBS which I make but havent tasted original. It has been a while since i had a store bought dunkel. The beers i make sure are for me but they are good in general as i think anyone would find them. You ask a good closing question and i asked the same of others on this thread. Have you tried warm ferment lagers? Have you tried not using temp control? I have not used temperature control and have no plans to. Living somewhere very hot seems a good reason to though. A person's bias can greatly affect the outcome. That is the whole point of triangle tasting. Just today I was listening to Marshall on the Brewing Network dr. Homebrew. Only two of the five were able to tell the difference between warm and cold fermented kolsch and they guessed which was warm and cold wrong anyways. On the session Marshall gave them all the same beer to hear the way they commented about it makes a key point. Our biases matter. Either way these small perceived differences really dont warrant this ongoing discourse. People think they can tell the difference in 4 degrees of a mash. This is not possible imo but without blind taste test will never know

 

[jddevinn]

Shock from temperature changes is an important factor as well as correct temperature for the flavor profile.

 

[applescrap]

And they are broken into categories of relevance and increasing complexity, with not all categories being brewing related. Reading list for "Brewing Module 1" for instance has 5 items, each being only several pages long and free to download. Some items are entire books and are not free.

The 112 page booklet Blue Book On Yeast - Updated Sept 2009 in "Brewing Module 2" would be relevant to the current discussion (technical side of the discussion not the "antidotal" side).

If you like the higher temperature fermentation with this yeast it should still ideally be a process variable that you control (if you care about the final product taste). Fermentation temperature control is neither difficult or expensive (OK, it can be pricey but does not have to be.)

Thanks again for the resources, i will likely read some but still will likely not read anything to change my mind. Implying one does not care about the final product if they don't care about controlling every variable is a big leap. I would argue that if someone cares about these variables more than recipe and water quality that one doesn't care about the final product

 

[jddevinn]

Temperature, yeast, water chemistry are all part of the recipe... they are not seperate

 

[applescrap]

Temperature, yeast, water chemistry are all part of the recipe... they are not seperate

I disagree, temperature given a reasonable range, will have very little impact on final taste. That is the point of my position. Even if there was a little difference, it's so slight without Brewing multiple batches to compare to its a non-factor imo. Especially considering all of the minute recipe changes one could make that would make a dramatic difference in taste and overall character. Like a cup of coffee or a tsp of cinnamon. These small differences really just don't warrant passionate disagreement in my opinion.

 

[ChefRex]

Temperature, yeast, water chemistry are all part of the recipe... they are not seperate

Just face it, You're wrong

 

[Mismost]

Have you tried warm ferment lagers? Have you tried not using temp control? I have not used temperature control and have no plans to.

Yes, I have warm fermented, for my first year and half. I was never satisfied with those beers although some were good. But, they all had a fault, a twang, a off flavor line, odd smell....I just always felt that they could be better.

Caught a chest freezer on sale and got an InkBird temp controller...all in under 200 bucks AND I now have a spare freezer come deer season.

Apple....it has made a huge difference, even in the very simple beers. The single best thing I have done in my brewing. I control within one degree of the yeasts preferred temp range and they seem to be really happy to do their job. I didn't consult a panel of judges, no triangle taste tests, no serious reading, nor podcasts...I know it is better beer.

I think you will hit a point in your brewing, that's when you should change your mind, and try what you know nothing about right now. Will Rogers once said "Some folks can learn by reading. Some can learn by watching others. But, some folks just have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves". Pee on the fence, Apple. If you think your 30 cent beer is good now, wait until you try it with temp control and really happy yeast.

In closing, if I could go back in time, temp control would have been done from the start. I look at that first year and half as wasted time. I am starting all over now. In fact the next brew is a simple can Pilsner that I've made three times and it was always "good". I'm betting it's fixing to get even better.

 

[jddevinn]

I suppose we aren't convincing apple..... but I think there is enough replies now that nobody that is starting out is going to get confused with any advice here.

 

[ChefRex]

I suppose we aren't convincing apple..... but I think there is enough replies now that nobody that is starting out is going to get confused with any advice here.

Goes to show you Apple and beer just don't work together.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WJkwYj7sr0[/ame]

 

[The_Bishop]

I disagree, temperature given a reasonable range, will have very little impact on final taste.

Yeah, you're pretty much completely wrong on this one.

 

[casualbrewer]

If he isn't using temp control of some sort then he is probably fermenting at ambient temps. Some yeasts will ferment up to 15 degrees higher than room temp which throws it right out of its intended temp range. The whole thing about temps is to control the actual fermentation temperature. If you really want to showcase your flaws then brew a light lager and then compare it to a commercial brew.... You will realize just how bad what you made is. This is what I am doing currently. I am intentionally trying to brew lighter lagers so I can precisely dial in my process. If you can make a beer that exhibits no flaws on such a blank and exposed canvas such as a light lager then you can brew anything. Trust me that my beers aren't perfect bit they are getting better with each step I take. First was all grain (sorry extract people), second was temp control, third was water (which I still don't have perfected), and lastly which is my current endeavor is clarity aka clean crispness. It's good you like your beers as I like mine, however we should strive to create the best we can. Otherwise I would just go buy cheap beer.

 

[applescrap]

Goes to show you Apple and beer just don't work together.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WJkwYj7sr0

Haha, glad we can always count on you to lighten the mood

 

[applescrap]

Yes, I have warm fermented, for my first year and half. I was never satisfied with those beers although some were good. But, they all had a fault, a twang, a off flavor line, odd smell....I just always felt that they could be better.

Caught a chest freezer on sale and got an InkBird temp controller...all in under 200 bucks AND I now have a spare freezer come deer season.

Apple....it has made a huge difference, even in the very simple beers. The single best thing I have done in my brewing. I control within one degree of the yeasts preferred temp range and they seem to be really happy to do their job. I didn't consult a panel of judges, no triangle taste tests, no serious reading, nor podcasts...I know it is better beer.

I think you will hit a point in your brewing, that's when you should change your mind, and try what you know nothing about right now. Will Rogers once said "Some folks can learn by reading. Some can learn by watching others. But, some folks just have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves". Pee on the fence, Apple. If you think your 30 cent beer is good now, wait until you try it with temp control and really happy yeast.

In closing, if I could go back in time, temp control would have been done from the start. I look at that first year and half as wasted time. I am starting all over now. In fact the next brew is a simple can Pilsner that I've made three times and it was always "good". I'm betting it's fixing to get even better.

I appreciate your long and thoughtful response. These differences in this simple cheap beer are so vast and great, that it warrants all the extra equipment and time? What makes you so certain that i am the one who's peeing on the fence and going to come to terms with the reality of 10 pounds of two Row and an ounce of hops tasting like 10 pounds of 2 row and an ounce of hops regardless of any of this discussion. You can tell yourself it tastes better but in blind triangle tests and my own experience there is no reason to believe that one is better than another. If anything there might be just a difference. Not necessarily a good or bad difference just a difference. Look at all the famous people in Homebrew who have tasted these beers and been unable to tell the difference.

One of the best decisions in my life was to not buy a pump for my electric Brewing. Trying to control Mash or fermentation temperature within a degree or so just is not worth the money and time. And it is my hope that you are the one that decides that someday, not me. I am certain this is not about who's wrong it's about who's right. No doubt the methods you are using are considered correct. That being said so is the other imo. Somebody could come on here and claim you're not using so and so's method that requires 16 weeks as well. Or they could claim that you're not using step mashing through decoction. So believe me I'm sure there's plenty of discussion that could be had around everybody's lager Brewing method from a strict German lager method standpoint.

I just can't get over it though, talking about the difference in flavors of these common simple beers. Does keeping the temperature control turn this into an elevated IPA. This is a common drink, a simple drink, a cheap drink to make and a crisp drink that one should always have around. Many homebrewers, experienced and not, are turned off and having the door shut on them with lagers and lager yeast because of this dogma. it shouldn't be that way is my standpoint. There is no level of goodness that this simple beer could be taken to much above what it is without increasing the quality of ingredients and/or the quality of the water.



Hope i don't come off to jerky here, really enjoy the discussion

 

[joshesmusica]

hahahahahhaa


hahahahaha


hahahaha

ha
ha
ha

ah

Ok. Got that out.

I'm strongly in the camp of can tell a difference between temperatures. Sure, maybe only some 33% of society can tell a difference, but I'm in that camp.

Ferment an ale yeast - say Safale US-05 at slightly warmer than desired temps, I can taste those overwhelming esters. And what's more, this is only anecdotal evidence! Started an octoberfest/marzen today. Did a step up starter, plus a vitality starter. Didn't bother tasting any of those rounds, but in each one I could simply SMELL the esters coming from a warmer temperature.

Please, for the love of all that is brew-worthy, compare your beers side by side OBJECTIVELY to a commercial example of the same style. Those pictures of your dunkel are significantly different than an actual (not some BS modified) version of the same style. Most actual commercial dunkels I can see a clear, ruby tint to in the glass. Yours looks like a murky glass of junk.

But go figure, I'm just one of those lame homebrewers without scientific evidence that doesn't like a murky beer verses a clean, clear beer because the taste of the suspended yeast throws me off.

It's seriously great that you enjoy your 10 day grain to glass classic lager styles (even though they're clearly nothing like the classic lager styles), but that doesn't mean they are the same to everybody. Learn a little bit from the brulosophy guys: even they admit after EVERY SINGLE EXPERIMENT that more testing needs to be done. I try to produce nice, crisp, clean ales on a regular basis - even those cannot be done GREAT grain to glass in 10 days. Sure, ok, good enough, maybe. But not great. And that's what I'm after, and a lot of other homebrewers are after.

You keep denying that you have claimed that people are wrong about the way they approach homebrewing, yet, at the same time, you actually do keep saying that people are wrong for not agreeing with you. Give it up. You like your average beer, which is completely fine. I like my average beer too! But I'm also in pursuit of a great beer, which neither of us are clearly quite there yet.

Lastly, in the honest discourse that is supposedly going on here, seriously man, if you would just take an extra few minutes and make your statements a little more coherent, you would likely have more of a discussion. As is, it's incredibly hard to understand what you're getting at. You are basically thinking as you type, and that's not a good thing whatsoever. This is an informal, online forum, but a little more control of your grammar and English comprehension would go a long way to help you in these discussions.

 

[ChefRex]

To Jerky, Clink.

 

[applescrap]

hahahahahhaa


hahahahaha


hahahaha

ha
ha
ha

ah

Ok. Got that out.

I'm strongly in the camp of can tell a difference between temperatures. Sure, maybe only some 33% of society can tell a difference, but I'm in that camp.

Ferment an ale yeast - say Safale US-05 at slightly warmer than desired temps, I can taste those overwhelming esters. And what's more, this is only anecdotal evidence! Started an octoberfest/marzen today. Did a step up starter, plus a vitality starter. Didn't bother tasting any of those rounds, but in each one I could simply SMELL the esters coming from a warmer temperature.

Please, for the love of all that is brew-worthy, compare your beers side by side OBJECTIVELY to a commercial example of the same style. Those pictures of your dunkel are significantly different than an actual (not some BS modified) version of the same style. Most actual commercial dunkels I can see a clear, ruby tint to in the glass. Yours looks like a murky glass of junk.

But go figure, I'm just one of those lame homebrewers without scientific evidence that doesn't like a murky beer verses a clean, clear beer because the taste of the suspended yeast throws me off.

It's seriously great that you enjoy your 10 day grain to glass classic lager styles (even though they're clearly nothing like the classic lager styles), but that doesn't mean they are the same to everybody. Learn a little bit from the brulosophy guys: even they admit after EVERY SINGLE EXPERIMENT that more testing needs to be done. I try to produce nice, crisp, clean ales on a regular basis - even those cannot be done GREAT grain to glass in 10 days. Sure, ok, good enough, maybe. But not great. And that's what I'm after, and a lot of other homebrewers are after.

You keep denying that you have claimed that people are wrong about the way they approach homebrewing, yet, at the same time, you actually do keep saying that people are wrong for not agreeing with you. Give it up. You like your average beer, which is completely fine. I like my average beer too! But I'm also in pursuit of a great beer, which neither of us are clearly quite there yet.

Lastly, in the honest discourse that is supposedly going on here, seriously man, if you would just take an extra few minutes and make your statements a little more coherent, you would likely have more of a discussion. As is, it's incredibly hard to understand what you're getting at. You are basically thinking as you type, and that's not a good thing whatsoever. This is an informal, online forum, but a little more control of your grammar and English comprehension would go a long way to help you in these discussions.

Certainly not a party without you, glad you showed up.

 

[applescrap]

To Jerky, Clink.

Cheers

 

[joshesmusica]

Certainly not a party without you, glad you showed up.

Didn't think so.

At least I can go to bed knowing that I tried. Along with many others. You all tried. You did. Some things in life are just unfixable.

 

[applescrap]

I found quite a few nice helles recipes. The brulosophy recipe, byo magazine recipe, and jamil and palmers. Any favorites out there? How about some yeast suggestions and I give it a try. Kinda fun?!

 

[applescrap]

This dunkel has a beautiful ruby red tint to it. Fresh and effervescent. It shows signs of a somewhat sloppy and greedy late racking, and the 40 psi horizontal tango it got from me, but overall it is more clear than not. I never fine beers with gelatin. I don't remove the trub into the fermenter either.

 

[joshesmusica]

I found quite a few nice helles recipes. The brulosophy recipe, byo magazine recipe, and jamil and palmers. Any favorites out there? How about some yeast suggestions and I give it a try. Kinda fun?!

For sure! What yeast will you use and what temperature range(s) will you use?

White Labs has a helles yeast - recommended temperature range 48-52.

Wyeast has two suggested strains for the style (neither one of them typical for the classical style, but who gives two shits, right?), a danish yeast - temp range 46-56; and a bohemain strain - temp range 45-68!!!

Can't wait to read the results of your exbeeriment!

Of course, you will brew two completely separate, yet identical batches, the only difference being the fermentation temperature correct?

And you will have a panel size that will show a distinguishable difference between the two batches, right?