Mold in Bottles (already filled)

[brewnovice]

I'm relatively new to homebrewing. I just finished my second batch (a stout) and reused some old bottles for it. I used the high heat in the dishwasher with no soap to sanitize them and thought they were clean. But I was just looking at some extras that I cleaned that I didn't have enough beer to fill, and a couple of them had what appeared to be spots of dark mold in the bottom--so I'm pretty sure some of the bottles I filled with beer didn't get entirely clean either. Is there any chance of people getting some kind of food poisoning from this if some of them do in fact have mold in the bottom? Or will it just make those bottles taste bad?

Thanks for any help--

 

[Kaz]

Make people sick...I doubt it. Make the beer taste nasty...most definitely...yuk. I did that once but luckily it was only 2 bottles that didn't get completely clean.

 

[Beer604]

I am fairly new to brewing myself, I used old bottles for my first batch.
The effort to clean all the dried in gunk and mold just wasn't
worth the trouble.
Probably don't get serious food poisoning of it. I certainly
would not drink stuff that has mold in it.
There are good kind of molds in cheese
making etc but not in the bottom of a beer bottle.
Just my $0.02

 

[bennyd]

The dishwasher isn't reliable to CLEAN your bottles. The openings are too narrow. But I have used it to sanitize the bottles after I made sure that they were clean. You can use Oxyclean to soak them. I like to use a jet bottle washer that I attach to my kitchen faucet.

 

[juslod]

A few batches ago I had a bottle here and there that had some dark mold on the bottom / sides of the bottles and one that had a slug like thing growing. I opened them to taste anyway and there wasn't a huge flavor difference in the bottle with the small spots (if any at all). The bottle with the slug didn't taste all that great, however...

 

[Yooper]

It won't kill you. The beer might taste bad.

Next time, make sure the bottles are clean before sanitizing. Since they bottles are narrow, they don't get clean in the dishwasher. A couple of things help- rinse the bottles well immediately after use, and dry upside down. That way, no mold can start in the first place. Use a bottle brush and oxyclean on any dirty bottles before sanitizing.

For the ones that have mold in them now, don't worry too much. When you open a beer, open it over the sink. Any "gushers" will at least not make too big of a mess. If the beer tastes good, drink it!

 

[Beer604]

A few batches ago I had a bottle here and there that had some dark mold on the bottom / sides of the bottles and one that had a slug like thing growing. I opened them to taste anyway and there wasn't a huge flavor difference in the bottle with the small spots (if any at all). The bottle with the slug didn't taste all that great, however...

Words of the Man who loves his brew no matter what! :rockin:

 

[TheDom]

I'd definitely dump anything that has mold in it. You have no way of knowing whether the species you've got growing is harmless or not. I wouldn't want to drink a bottle full of aflatoxin from some aspergillus mold left in the bottles, it's nasty stuff. It sucks you've got a stout, that'll make finding bad bottles tough. Maybe a flashlight and a lot of patience will help.

In the future, give the bottles a good oxyclean soak, followed by a bottle brush, THEN sanitize them with some iodophor, star san, etc. Bottles have to be cleaned first, then sanitized. Without first cleaning, the sanitizer can't penetrate beyond the surface of any gunk you have in there, effectively making the sanitizing process useless.

 

[passedpawn]

• Won't affect taste
• Looks horrible, both in the bottle and when the beer worm comes squiggling out into a glass
• Won't result in a bottle infection if the dishwasher has a true NSF heat cycle
• Dishwasher will never clean out the bottles, especially if the beer has dried into a beer worm on the bottom. ALWAYS ALWAYS rinse them within 24 hours of emptying.

 

[Calder]

+1 to rinsing immediatly after pouring beer and dry upside down.

I'm not a biologist, but I have read in a number of places that there are no known harmful pathagens that can survive in beer. It will not make you ill. If it gushes when opened, or tastes sour, pour it down the drain and open another.

 

[FatherJack]

+1 to the rinsing immediately

When I purchase bottles, I bring them home, crank up my hot water to 60C and scrub them, fill them, shake the bejeezus out of them, fill again, shake again and empty.

When it comes bottling time, I give my bottles a quick dip in a vinegar bath, shake bejeezus again, rinse and all set.

Bejeezus doesn't care too much for me after all that abuse.

 

[Hannable1975]

I have started to do the following -

I pour every beer, homebrew or commercial and immediately either rinse or place in a clean bucket full of water.

When I have 24 or so I put them in a tote full of water with 1/4 cup TSP per 5 gallons of hot water and let set over night.

Take out, rince clean and put in boxes.

Then on bottle day I simply dip in starsan and bottle.

So far the only beer I have had anything odd show up in was my batch I messed the gelatin up in - cleanliness has not reared any bad results.


* I understand that TSP may not be available in all places anymore. I have used Oxyclean Free on an occasion where I ran out, with the same result, but so long as I can buy the TSP I do. Habit I guess.

 

[Hockeyhunter99]

Definatley rinse and dry upside down.

"I'm not a biologist, but I have read in a number of places that there are no known harmful pathagens that can survive in beer.

i am a biologist and if it does survive in alcohol, you don't want it in you! better safe than sorry.

 

[earwig]

If you are still following this thread... buy one of these and hook it up to a slop sink in the basement or buy the attachments and hook it up to your kitchen sink... it is one of my favorite pieces of brewing equipment.

http://www.homebrewers.com/product/4800/Jet-Carboy-Bottle-Washer.html

 

[WillPall]

i am a biologist and if it does survive in alcohol, you don't want it in you! better safe than sorry.

Really? No vinegar? No sour beers? If I don't want any bugs that survive in alcohol, what am I to do?

 

[scrambledegg81]

You have no way of knowing whether the species you've got growing is harmless or not.

It's been mentioned on here a few times, but there are no known pathogens that are harmful to humans that can survive in an environment with alcohol.

 

[TheDom]

This didn't grow in beer, it grew in empty beer bottles left laying around, there's a big difference. I agree that the anaerobic, low pH, alcoholic environment of beer keeps pathogens from growing. History has shown that the above environment has a phenomenal preservative effect.

However in the empty bottle, you've got a dark, probably humid glass bottle, with a nice coating of residual sugars, plenty of oxygen, and no more alcohol. I guarantee I could grow penicillium or aspergillus molds in there, both of which produce compounds that are very toxic to the liver both short and long-term. I don't know about you, but to me some $30 batch of homebrew isn't worth the potential health problems that could result down the road.

I mean, for some of the prople on here to freak out about using non food-grade buckets and hoses and such, then say "Black mold infused beer? Sure, what's the worst that could happen?" is something I just can't wrap my head around. Would you accept black mold in store bought beer, even i you got it as a gift? I'd imagine not. The only reason it's even being considered is because of the emotional attachment we get to something we've personally put work into, and the "Don't dump it EVER" attitude on HBT. Granted, 99% of the time one should certainly not dump. I think black mold fits into that 1%. Count me in the "better safe than sorry" camp.

The cleaning/sanitation advice on here I completely agree with. Rinsing bottles immediately after use saves a lot of headache later.

 

[passedpawn]

This didn't grow in beer, it grew in empty beer bottles left laying around, there's a big difference. I agree that the anaerobic, low pH, alcoholic environment of beer keeps pathogens from growing. History has shown that the above environment has a phenomenal preservative effect.

However in the empty bottle, you've got a dark, probably humid glass bottle, with a nice coating of residual sugars, plenty of oxygen, and no more alcohol. I guarantee I could grow penicillium or aspergillus molds in there, both of which produce compounds that are very toxic to the liver both short and long-term. I don't know about you, but to me some $30 batch of homebrew isn't worth the potential health problems that could result down the road.

I mean, for some of the prople on here to freak out about using non food-grade buckets and hoses and such, then say "Black mold infused beer? Sure, what's the worst that could happen?" is something I just can't wrap my head around. Would you accept black mold in store bought beer, even i you got it as a gift? I'd imagine not. The only reason it's even being considered is because of the emotional attachment we get to something we've personally put work into, and the "Don't dump it EVER" attitude on HBT. Granted, 99% of the time one should certainly not dump. I think black mold fits into that 1%. Count me in the "better safe than sorry" camp.

The cleaning/sanitation advice on here I completely agree with. Rinsing bottles immediately after use saves a lot of headache later.

Don't confuse the extremely vocal minority on this forum with the more pragmatic majority.

 

[TheDom]

Don't confuse the extremely vocal minority on this forum with the more pragmatic majority.

Not sure which category I'm being grouped in here.

Just saying, drinking mold isn't a great idea. But hey, what do we microbiologists know.

 

[superjunior]

I'd be most concerned with bottle bombs. happened to me once, we narrowed it down to a single bottle infection. what a mess that one bomber made...

 

[earwig]

Not sure which category I'm being grouped in here.

Just saying, drinking mold isn't a great idea. But hey, what do we microbiologists know.

OMG a microbiologist right here on HBT? We're not worthy!

 

[Skarekrough]

OMG a microbiologist right here on HBT? We're not worthy!

Among my group of friends I was the first among us to get married and buy a house.

The first or second weekend we were in it one of my oldest and best friends and his wife came by to see the new digs. Now, my friend is an engineer by trade, by choice he's an incredible geek of an engineer whose eyes spot every potential danger, hazard, building code violation and five-year out tragedy, and does it like he's going to win something if he keeps doing it.

After twenty minutes in the new house and no less than citing a dozen things that are out of sorts or potentially out of sorts his wife takes him aside and gently tell him that this is a nice little parade, please don't piss all over it.

Years later we got to talking about it and while at the time it did bother me to be told something that I had signed my life away for and sunk my life savings into, it was generally appreciated. Just, perhaps, not exactly at that time. Although in hindsight at least half of the things he mentioned have turned out to be an issue. Thusly I know of wished I'd managed to swallow my pride and take note. It probably would have helped me in the long run.

Having experts on here, like, real experts with degrees and experience and out working in the field is an incredible opportunity to shore up the practical experience we have from folks that have been brewing for decades and what science knows, has documented and taught.

It would be a loss to not have both sides involved.

They might not always agree, but somewhere in between is where were all going to benefit.

 

[passedpawn]

Not sure which category I'm being grouped in here.

Just saying, drinking mold isn't a great idea. But hey, what do we microbiologists know.

Maybe you can start by explaining the difference between mold and yeast

 

[TheDom]

Maybe you can start by explaining the difference between mold and yeast

Not sure what you mean by start (what am I starting?), nor am I sure how the difference between the two applies to our current discussion, but ok, why not. Yeasts are unicellular fungi that grow and reproduce mainly by budding, though there are some yeasts that can reproduce sexually. Molds are also fungi, but they are multicellular and grow by extension of hyphae, forming mycelium. Mold fungi can reproduce asexually, and many can reproduce sexually. The term mold is really only used to describe the (usually visible) asexual phase in which spores are being produced. Molds also tend to be able to grow in drier environments than yeasts.

If you really want to know more.

I still really can't believe that there's actually an argument over the idea that drinking an unknown mold is a bad idea.

The problem with most mycotoxins that molds produce is that they won't kill you outright, or make you sick immediately. They tend to do slow cumulative damage, usually to the liver, over time. That's the problem with the "Well, I've done it and the beer didn't taste icky, so it must be fine" approach.

I really don't understand what's so unreasonable about recommending the OP dump any bottles with obvious mold in them.

 

[jfr1111]

^^^ +1. I get that dumping beer is considered almost a sacrilege around here, but I would at least inspect each bottle after pouring to check for mold and drink the ones that aren't moldy. There's a difference between "no known pathogen can grow in beer" and "no known pathogen can get into beer and survive".

To the OP, oxyclean is your friend. Inspect every bottle with a very strong light. I do it twice and some bottles still turn up with minuscule flecks come bottling time.

 

[scrambledegg81]

Again, there are no known pathogens that can survive in an environment with alcohol. Hops also possess anti-microbial properties, which is why IPA's were so heavily hopped when they were first made by the British Empire for consumption several months down the line (although that obviously wasn't understood until recently).

Even with a heavy cake of mold, it's excruciatingly unlikely that anything potentially harmful would be able to survive and propagate in beer once it's consumed, except for Salmonella or Cholera (which would only survive if a) someone was dumb enough to not boil their water before brewing, and b) actually had water which possessed those microbes in the first place). The worst that can feasibly happen with mold in a bottle would be horribly tasting beer.


My 2 biological cents.

 

[TheDom]

Again, there are no known pathogens that can survive in an environment with alcohol. Hops also possess anti-microbial properties, which is why IPA's were so heavily hopped when they were first made by the British Empire for consumption several months down the line (although that obviously wasn't understood until recently).

Even with a heavy cake of mold, it's excruciatingly unlikely that anything potentially harmful would be able to survive and propagate in beer once it's consumed, except for Salmonella or Cholera (which would only survive if a) someone was dumb enough to not boil their water before brewing, and b) actually had water which possessed those microbes in the first place). The worst that can feasibly happen with mold in a bottle would be horribly tasting beer.


My 2 biological cents.

I'll see your two cents and raise you two more. You keep repeating that no known pathogens will grow in beer (well, you said alcohol this time, but continued with hops, so beer it is). I agree that beer as it is processed and packaged (read: an environment that contains alcohol, is anaerobic, has hop products, AND a low pH) creates a condition where no known pathogens will grow in it. However, it does not keep being as resistant to potential pathogens growing after those conditions change. If that were so, patients in hospitals would be doused in beer for any wound because hey, nothing grows on this beer stuff, right?

Are you really telling me that Aspergillus spp. or Penicillium spp. or other mycotoxigenic molds won't grow in an empty beer bottle, after the alcohol is gone, and the 02 is back? At that point you've probably still got a nice humid environment, and a good deal of residual sugars that the yeast couldn't digest. No harmful molds are going to grow there? Really?

The mold surviving or not surviving after bottling is not the issue, though I agree that it would not survive. The issue is mycotoxins potentially present in the mold. The mold can be long dead, and those mycotoxins will still be there. We know there is mold in his bottles, and we don't know what sort of mold it is. Many molds produce substances that are toxic to humans, and the best we have is that it "probably" isn't harmful, mostly based on a misunderstanding of the "no known pathogens in beer" thing. These moldy beer bottles are not the last beers on earth, he can make more if he dumps a few.

Thanks, this is fun. I haven't gotten to discuss tiny stuff growing in a while.

 

[scrambledegg81]

I'll just say that, as a homebrewer for over 2 years now, I've yet to encounter an instance where "viable" mold produced any ill health effects (and this has been with 2 roommates and countless family members partaking in said brew). Again, it's purely situational, and I don't say otherwise, but the fact remains that the odds lie more in favor of producing off-flavored beer rather than a possible health hazard in a bottle. I don't condone drinking from said moldy bottle, but the chances of getting something nasty are slim, which in relation to the OP's concerns, addresses the root of his question.

 

[Varroa]

Google mycotoxins if you really want to know what they can do to you (another biologist speaking).