Modifying extract kits do’s and don’ts?

[OpenSights]

Starting to get comfortable enough to mess around with kits. Adding hops, cocoa nibs, chilis, fruit.

Modified a stout into a chocolate covered, today’s brew, an American pale ale I added Citra hops to the last five minutes of the boil. The smell was awesome! I added the hops right in, no bag and didn’t strain it so everything is in primary. Now I’m second guessing dry hopping a second ounce in secondary.

Any advice of what not to do when messing with a kit?

 

[IslandLizard]

Messing with kits? Here are some of the really big ones:

1. Ignore most kit instructions.
2. Instead, read HBT and learn to brew better.
3. John Palmer's new (4th) edition of How to Brew (2017) is good reading to understand the various processes involved in brewing.
4. Don't do secondaries. They're not needed, and can cause problems. Leave it in the primary until packaging.*
5. Don't adhere to kits' extremely conservative timing schedules. Most beers are done after 2 weeks, 3 weeks tops (much rarer). If all signs of fermentation have ceased, take 2 gravity reading 2-3 days apart. If both are the same AND close to the expected Final Gravity (FG), it's ready to package.**
6. Try to avoid exposing your beer to air after fermentation has started, it will oxidate, and starts to taste like diluted sherry (wet cardboard). This is especially true the hoppier a beer is. Hops fade fast as it is, and oxygen speeds up that process drastically.
7. Don't lift the lid until you're ready to package. There are some exceptions when adding dry hops or fruit, but you're better off modifying the lid in advance to provide a larger access hole.

You're on the right road to discovery. You can tweak many kit recipes to your liking. Or some day, just buy raw ingredients for a good tested recipe you found here.

Here are a few ideas to modify recipes:

• Are you adding half the extract at the beginning of the boil and the rest at flameout?
• You are already changing the hop schedule by adding hops. You can also move hops around and exchange them for others.
• Change the hop addition timing. Read up on hop stands (whirlpool hops) especially for Pales and IPAs, but valid for most hop forward beers even ESBs.
• I guess you're steeping grains. Change up the steeping grains. If the steeping grains aren't mixed together, substitute some with others. You can always add some. Be guided by proven recipes posted here, and adventure out.

Notes:
* Some beers, like sours and very strong beers, benefit from secondaries and bulk aging, but they are not common. Doing a secondary properly is an advanced technique. You want to avoid oxidation and infection.
** Be aware, some beers do indeed need weeks, even months to finish. Sours can take years. Beers can stall, which means the measured SG after 2 or 3 weeks is well above the predicted FG. In that case it is generally NOT safe to bottle at that time, even if 2 or 3 reading 2-3 days apart match.

Have fun!

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] Any advice of what not to do when messing with a kit?

I forgot to address the essence of that particular question.
The answer is: Nothing, anything goes. There are no boundaries, mess around as much as you like. Be creative!

Deconstruct kits and recombine ingredients into other recipes to your heart's content. Now when steeping grains are mixed, there are some limitations, you can't separate the different types of grain. But as long as you know what's in them and the amounts, you can change them up, change ratios, or reuse elsewhere.

 

[OpenSights]

Thanks! I’ve only recently started using a secondary and have been as cautious as possible to not get aeration and blanket with co2.

For my chocolate cherry stout made from a stout kit, I didn’t want to add the vodka soaked cocoa nibs or frozen cherries and organic, no preservative tart cherry concentrate until secondary. Primary was about three to four weeks, secondary was two weeks.

Happened to spot a reserve of chocolate cherry dragons milk at my grocery store and picked it up to compare. Only one guy in my club liked the dragons milk more than mine. Gave some good feedback! Not the ingredients, something in my brewing or fermenting process. Honestly for me it wasn’t how I wanted it to be. But I’ve had some very experienced brewers say they really like it. Moral booster for sure!

The dragons milk was lighter and sweeter than mine, also 11% vs. my 6.5%... but high avb isn’t my goal.

I need to read more, learn about flavors of different things, how they work together...

I can put together my grandmothers spaghetti sauce without any measuring. Just adjust the batch by taste. But I know the tastes of the ingredients. Brewing.... I’m a toddler cooking in the kitchen.... or better yet, my kid who made a flour, water, pickle, carrot and grapefruit frying pan concoction last weekend. He said it tasted good... I turned him down for sampling.

 

[IslandLizard]

The main reason for racking to secondaries after a few weeks (primary) was/is yeast autolysis. But our modern yeasts are much more hardy, and autolysis doesn't seem to occur until after at least 8-12 weeks, usually longer. In some beer it's easier to detect than in others.

If it took 3-4 weeks for your primary to finish, you had at least 4 weeks left for your chocolate-cherry cocktail to do its work, all in the primary vessel. But if it needed an extra 4 weeks to meld, you may have had the beginning of autolysis set in. If you know how to rack to a properly sized secondary, there's nothing wrong with that. Props to you for learning the ropes! Having CO2 on hand also changes the odds in your favor. Just forget about that CO2 blanket, it fleets fast in an open vessel, but a little slower in a (narrow necked) carboy. Flushing with CO2 is always good. I must spend a good portion of my tank on flushing or "purging" headspaces.

It's just annoying that all kit recipes, including beginner kits, still have that secondary after xx days in there. Proper racking to secondaries is not for beginners. They all suck air and leave the secondary vessel with a gallon of headspace, while their sanitation is usually substandard. That's why we have that great pellicle collection here.

I gather you are far from a beginner, and a quick study. Soaking crushed cocoa nibs in vodka for 2 weeks, frozen cherries, as well as using a cherry concentrate is the right approach to transform that common milk stout into something to write home about.

Did you consider raising the alcohol to 8 or 9% for that recipe? I probably would have. Just 25-35% more extract, some extra lactose, and a good yeast pitch (large, healthy starter or 2 dry packs).

As you know, temp control during fermentation is key to good beer. So is a healthy yeast pitch.

It would be nice to know what that person found to be a possible process/fermentation problem. Could be from the yeast you used. I don't care for US-05/WLP001/WY1056 based beers, knowing there are so many alternatives that just taste better to me. But I've also been surprised more than disappointed with that same yeast.
Some people have really good taste buds and olfactory senses. They just know when something is not quite there yet. But don't feel bad, comparing an 11% commercial with a 6.5% homebrew is a tough match. Someone is bound to prefer the high-test, there's just much more going on, while the extra alcohol helps to get those aromas vaporized.

"Pre-visualizing" what flavors come out after fermentation is indeed very difficult. With practice, studying recipes and ingredients lists, and of course, lots of tasting you'll find your way through that web. You learn what different grains contribute, like Vienna, Munich, Victory, Melanoidin, etc. Why C20 is so different from C40 aside from color.

It must be that pickle-grapefruit combination we adults have lost our appreciation for. And who cannot love their own creation?

 

[OpenSights]

@IslandLizard I very much appreciate your input knowledge and experience! I’m a jarhead so I’ll probably have to read your last post five times before I digest everything. I learn more hands on then from reading, not to say I don’t study books, forums.

I have more posts here than I should, but I lurk and read more here than anything. Brewing is a complex world. And fascinating!

 

[OpenSights]

Looked up autolysis. Read it, yeast cake?

I have a few glass carboys. I’m too scared! Picked up a fer-Monster for today’s brew. I’m interested in actually seeing fermentation besides just bubbles.

 

[IslandLizard]

To further extend your kit modifications, have you done any partial mashes yet?
Partial mashing is not all that different from steeping grains, just more controlled (temperature and amount of water) and takes an hour in a large pot in a somewhat preheated, and turned off oven. It's needed for adding grains to extract kits that can't be steeped, such as Vienna, Munich, Biscuit Malt, Melanoidin, Amber Malt, Brown Malt, Flaked Wheat, Corn, Barley, Rye, Carafoam/Carapils, etc., and beneficial for some really low colored Crystal/Cara malts under 20° Lovibond (e.g., C5, C10, C20).

Partial mashes extend the range of beers you can brew. Although there are many more extracts out there now (e.g., Wheat, Munich, Rye Extract) than even 5 years ago, they're often more difficult to find than the raw grains and malts. For example, a good wheat beer needs a good portion of raw or flaked wheat. Partial mashing can also help in a slightly higher fermentability and thus attenuation. Eventually, most of those dedicated to brewing beer will go all grain, which gives ultimate control over recipes and the resulting beer. Now mashing also brings along the need to learn (and master) a few new techniques. The most important one probably being controlling your water composition.

Speaking of water...
One important facet that has been (conveniently) omitted in most kit instructions is the water used. It can make a crucial difference in your beer. AFAIK, only "Palmer's kits" tell you to use RO water.

Water is water, right? Not exactly! For most kits, most tap water will be fine or suitable, but only if:

• you're using municipal water, it is most likely treated with chlorine or chloramines. Those must be neutralized to prevent weird plasticky flavors later on. Treat all your brewing water with a 1/4 Campden tablet or 1/16 tsp of "Meta" per 5 gallons.
• your water is very hard (high calcium/magnesium/alkalinity levels) or high in minerals, using partial or all RO water is recommended for most beers.
• you're on a private well, make sure you know what's in your tap water (after filtering) to prevent off flavors caused by certain minerals (Iron, Manganese, etc.).

Water from a water softener system is unsuitable for brewing. Either tap from before the softener cartridge, or use different water.

When in doubt or your beer tastes weird, use RO water instead. Get, or better, fill jugs at your local supermarket or Walmart for ~$0.20-0.40 a gallon.

=====

Above, I mentioned:

• Are you adding half the extract at the beginning of the boil and the rest at flameout?

That's a another pretty important detail missing from most kit instructions. Splitting your extract additions will make a positive difference in how your beer tastes, more so when doing partial boils and top up in the fermentor.

Do you boil full volume or do you top up?

 

[OpenSights]

I slept in this morning after a busy day yesterday to find my bung and airlock knocked out of my brand new fermonster! My 9 y/o son and 1 1/2 y/o puppy must have knocked it out during the morning routine. Quickly sealed it back up and crossed my fingers! Active fermentation so with some extreme luck I might avoid an infection.

 

[OpenSights]

To further extend your kit modifications, have you done any partial mashes yet?
Partial mashing is not all that different from steeping grains, just more controlled (temperature and amount of water) and takes an hour in a large pot in a somewhat preheated, and turned off oven. It's needed for adding grains to extract kits that can't be steeped, such as Vienna, Munich, Biscuit Malt, Melanoidin, Amber Malt, Brown Malt, Flaked Wheat, Corn, Barley, Rye, Carafoam/Carapils, etc., and beneficial for some really low colored Crystal/Cara malts under 20° Lovibond (e.g., C5, C10, C20).

Partial mashes extend the range of beers you can brew. Although there are many more extracts out there now (e.g., Wheat, Munich, Rye Extract) than even 5 years ago, they're often more difficult to find than the raw grains and malts. For example, a good wheat beer needs a good portion of raw or flaked wheat. Partial mashing can also help in a slightly higher fermentability and thus attenuation. Eventually, most of those dedicated to brewing beer will go all grain, which gives ultimate control over recipes and the resulting beer. Now mashing also brings along the need to learn (and master) a few new techniques. The most important one probably being controlling your water composition.

Speaking of water...
One important facet that has been (conveniently) omitted in most kit instructions is the water used. It can make a crucial difference in your beer. AFAIK, only "Palmer's kits" tell you to use RO water.

Water is water, right? Not exactly! For most kits, most tap water will be fine or suitable, but only if:

• you're using municipal water, it is most likely treated with chlorine or chloramines. Those must be neutralized to prevent weird plasticky flavors later on. Treat all your brewing water with a 1/4 Campden tablet or 1/16 tsp of "Meta" per 5 gallons.
• your water is very hard (high calcium/magnesium/alkalinity levels) or high in minerals using partial or all RO water is recommended for most beers.
• you're on a private well, make sure you know what's in your tap water (after filtering) to prevent off flavors caused by certain minerals (Iron, Manganese, etc.)

When in doubt or your beer tastes weird, use RO water instead. Get, or better, fill jugs at your local supermarket or Walmart for ~$0.20-0.40 a gallon.

=====

Above, I mentioned:

• Are you adding half the extract at the beginning of the boil and the rest at flameout?

That's a another pretty important detail missing from most kit instructions. Splitting your extract additions will make a positive difference in how your beer tastes, more so when doing partial boils and top up in the fermentor.

Do you boil full volume or do you top up?

I’ve found the RO system I’m going to buy from my supply house (I’m a plumber), just haven’t pulled the trigger yet.

For now I’m using the best bottled water (imho) in town. I’m more of a water snob than a beer snob. I drink 1+ gallons of water a day. I figure the if the water I like and drink every day for hydration has to be good enough to make my dehydrating beer.

Many of the kits I’ve made do have steeping grains. I moved away from socks to a stainless screen basket. Usually I follow the kit instructions and only boil three gallons and not a full boil. I have a wort chiller, but haven’t set it up yet. Just been doing a ice bath.

I’ve been adding the LME or DME as the instructions say, which is all at once at the beginning of the boil. I have another kit, same as I made yesterday. I’ll split the DME and add the second at flameout. Have laundry to do today and a few other chores. I might be able to fit in another boil.

 

[OpenSights]

Oh, just for experimentation I did make a batch of Muntons Irish stout using my municipal water, which is hard, just to see if I can taste the difference. I force carbed it Friday but haven’t tried it yet.

On that note, is it me or or does beer just taste better when you prime instead of force carbing?

 

[IslandLizard]

I slept in this morning after a busy day yesterday to find my bung and airlock knocked out of my brand new fermonster! My 9 y/o son and 1 1/2 y/o puppy must have knocked it out during the morning routine. Quickly sealed it back up and crossed my fingers! Active fermentation so with some extreme luck I might avoid an infection.

It's probably just fine, it's only a small opening, unless they were experimenting with that neat setup and what's in it. After racking, someone found gummy bears in the bottom of his carboy...

 

[IslandLizard]

I’ve found the RO system I’m going to buy from my supply house (I’m a plumber), just haven’t pulled the trigger yet.

For now I’m using the best bottled water (imho) in town. I’m more of a water snob than a beer snob. I drink 1+ gallons of water a day. I figure the if the water I like and drink every day for hydration has to be good enough to make my dehydrating beer.

Many of the kits I’ve made do have steeping grains. I moved away from socks to a stainless screen basket. Usually I follow the kit instructions and only boil three gallons and not a full boil. I have a wort chiller, but haven’t set it up yet. Just been doing a ice bath.

I’ve been adding the LME or DME as the instructions say, which is all at once at the beginning of the boil. I have another kit, same as I made yesterday. I’ll split the DME and add the second at flameout. Have laundry to do today and a few other chores. I might be able to fit in another boil.

Good tasting water is not necessarily the best brewing water. For brewing, know what's in it and what's not. For kit brewing it's less critical, but higher mineral content water can change the flavor perception in the resulting beer.

For brewing, without having to know your water's composition, RO is basically foolproof, a blank slate to which minerals (brewing salts) can be added to complement or accentuate flavor. Then some minerals are needed when mashing. There's a whole forum here on just water.

Anything to keep the grains separated from the wort works.

• Do you give them a little rinse (sparge) after the steep to get some more goodness out?
• Do you keep a close eye on the steeping temps (especially the highest temp it reaches)?

So you do partial boils!

In that scenario, adding only a portion of your extract (less than half) is becoming even more important.

• Do you boil for an hour to get your hop utilization (bittering)?
• Do you keep adding water as it evaporates?

Ideally you don't want your boiling wort to be any higher than a gravity of 1.050-1.060. There are a few exceptions. A little higher can be acceptable in some cases, but certainly not above 1.070-1.080 unless you're brewing a Scotch Ale or Barleywine that needs caramelization.

The higher the gravity, the less hop utilization (bittering) you get and the more caramelization. Caramelization effects largely depend on how vigorous you boil and how hot the bottom of the kettle gets.

DME yields 45 points per pound per gallon (ppg)
For example, dissolving 6# of DME into 3 gallons of water gets you:

6 * 45 / 3 = 270 points / 3 gallons = 90 points (per gallon)​

90 points per gallon means a gravity of 1.090! That's boiling high gravity wort.

After the boil you add water (dilute your wort) to get 5.5 gallons in your fermentor:

270 points / 5.5 gallons = 49 points​

You now have a wort/beer with an SG of 1.049

But you were boiling at almost 2x that gravity.
If you didn't add water during the boil to compensate for evaporation during that hour boil, the wort thickens... The gravity at the end of that boil may well have been in the 1.100-1.150 range.

So to get a wort for your 3 gallon boil at a gravity around 1.050,* add:

50 / 45 * 3 = 3.3# of DME (45 ppg)​

or

50 / 38 * 3 = 4.0# of LME (38 ppg)
​

* Mind you, I have not taken into consideration the amount of sugars you've extracted from your steeping grains. They can easily add an additional 5-10 points to the gravity in your kettle. For example, 1# total of (steeped) crystal malts adds 34 points to your kettle, or 34 pts / 3 gal = ~11 ppg.
Now you're boiling at 1.061! If you want to boil at a lower gravity of say, 1.050, add less initial DME or LME accordingly.

You still with me?

 

[OpenSights]

I am, going to re-read a number of times. Sorry, just spent the last half hour laying on the floor with my kid watching the yeast working in my first clear fermenter. I’m too chicken poop to use glass carboys. Answered the million questions as best as I could.

Thank you very much for the info! I’ve bought 14 books for reference so far, mead, wine, cider, but mostly brewing. I use those for mostly reference and read here a minimum of an hour a day.

The only infections I’ve had been in ciders, wild yeasts? In time they’ve aged well and are good to consume. Trying to figure out what’s up. I used campdem tablets according to instructions, but that’s a different topic.

 

[OpenSights]

Good tasting water is not necessarily the best brewing water. For brewing, know what's in it and what's not. For kit brewing it's less critical, but higher mineral content water can change the flavor perception in the resulting beer.

For brewing, without having to know your water's composition, RO is basically foolproof, a blank slate to which minerals (brewing salts) can be added to complement or accentuate flavor. Then some minerals are needed when mashing. There's a whole forum here on just water.

Anything to keep the grains separated from the wort works.

• Do you give them a little rinse (sparge) after the steep to get some more goodness out?
• Do you keep a close eye on the steeping temps (especially the highest temp it reaches)?

So you do partial boils!

In that scenario, adding only a portion of your extract (less than half) is becoming even more important.

• Do you boil for an hour to get your hop utilization (bittering)?
• Do you keep adding water as it evaporates?

Ideally you don't want your boiling wort to be any higher than a gravity of 1.050-1.060. There are a few exceptions. A little higher can be acceptable in some cases, but certainly not above 1.070-1.080 unless you're brewing a Scotch Ale or Barleywine that needs caramelization.

The higher the gravity, the less hop utilization (bittering) you get and the more caramelization. Caramelization effects largely depend on how vigorous you boil and how hot the bottom of the kettle gets.

DME yields 45 points per pound per gallon (ppg)
For example, dissolving 6# of DME into 3 gallons of water gets you:

6 * 45 / 3 = 270 points / 3 gallons = 90 points (per gallon)​

90 points per gallon means a gravity of 1.090! That's boiling high gravity wort.

After the boil you add water (dilute your wort) to get 5.5 gallons in your fermentor:

270 points / 5.5 gallons = 49 points​

You now have a wort/beer with an SG of 1.049

But you were boiling at almost 2x that gravity.
If you didn't add water during the boil to compensate for evaporation during that hour boil, the wort thickens... The gravity at the end of that boil may well have been in the 1.100-1.150 range.

So to get a wort for your 3 gallon boil at a gravity around 1.050,* add:

50 / 45 * 3 = 3.3# of DME (45 ppg)​

or

50 / 38 * 3 = 4.0# of LME (38 ppg)
​

* Mind you, I have not taken into consideration the amount of sugars you've extracted from your steeping grains. They can easily add an additional 5-10 points to the gravity in your kettle. For example, 1# total of (steeped) crystal malts adds 34 points to your kettle, or 34 pts / 3 gal = ~11 ppg.
Now you're boiling at 1.061! If you want to boil at a lower gravity of say, 1.050, add less initial DME or LME accordingly.

You still with me?

That has to be the best explanation of OG, SG and the relationship of fermentables I have ever read! Maybe helped by reading about it over and over again, but the way you presented it has made the most sense.

My common practice has been to partial boil per instructions as well as all DME or LME at the beginning of the boil, and yes, full boil for the hops at the designated times.

Just before my first club meeting my LHBS had a brewing with extract class. I had not been replacing the evaporated water from my boil. Hadn’t even taken that into account.


Veering slightly off topic...

For National homebrew day we set up a canopy in the parking lot of my LHBS, 10% off ingredients and equipment to be used. I chose their Budweiser clone to make for family reunion, not my preferred beer, but...

5 gallon batch and decided to add Citra 5 minuets before flameout. Watched a number of videos today on washing and saving the yeast. I have another of those kits I’m going to experiment using the same yeast from my current batch. It was a dry yeast, Safale us-05. I assume I can still harvest? Also I read when doing this some of the hops will stay with the yeast. I also assume the hops wouldn’t be not quite as pronounced in a second 5 gallon batch using the normal hops in the kit as scheduled, well, with the second half of the DME at flameout.

This is a very fun hobby with lots of room to learn and grow!

 

[rodwha]

I forgot to address the essence of that particular question.
The answer is: Nothing, anything goes. There are no boundaries, mess around as much as you like. Be creative!

Deconstruct kits and recombine ingredients into other recipes to your heart's content. Now when steeping grains are mixed, there are some limitations, you can't separate the different types of grain. But as long as you know what's in them and the amounts, you can change them up, change ratios, or reuse elsewhere.

WOAH! Hold on right there! There are certainly a few no no’s!



Coconut, ancient liquid extract, and baker’s yeast being a few! My friend in Houston likes to buy kits and add things he thinks sounds good. He thought peat smoked grains was interesting and used the full pound in a 5 gal batch. He created bog water. But he isn’t the type to ask questions or seek knowledge. To his credit his tampered beers are generally pretty good.

SWMBO found a Mr Beer kit along with a 3 pack refill for sale. They had just reached their 2 year expiration date. I figured it was worth it as I wouldn’t use the yeast anyway and figured the worst the extract could be is a little stale. Despite ditching the booster for DME, adding hops, and using my own yeast they all tasted like molasses. I assume they were kept in the garage.

I recently picked up 3 kits. 2 of them are one gallon IIPA kits. I don’t like making smaller than maybe 2 gals at a time so I decided to combine these, stretch it to 4.5 gals and add a little more hops and grains.

The other the fella brewed 1/2 of a 5 gal milk porter and said it was overly sweet. Being averse to overly sweet and seeing it is a high gravity kit I decided to stretch it out adding just a bit more hops that matched from an IIPA kit along with some grains.

 

[kh54s10]

Another no that I advise against is adding sugar, etc. just to increase ABV. The kit was not designed for a high ABV so you are more likely to mess up a good tasting beer than getting a good high ABV beer.

Also don't go overboard with changes like adding hops. It would be very easy to throw a good beer out of balance making it extremely bitter. Or just masking all the malt flavors.

If you do add a lot of hops do it in a dry hop.

It is best to make small alterations, observe the results and expand on that at a later date. For instance, you might take a brown ale and add a little bit of rye malt. Go easy and see if you like it. If you do and want more rye flavor bump up the amount a little in the next batch.

When I do a new recipe I often take a proven beer and make small changes to something I think I might like. I have not ruined anything with this approach. I have learned what most malts and hops add to a recipe and now, often create a recipe from scratch. The only failures have been when I went to extremes. Like attempting to make a very high gravity beer. It would not ferment out to a decent FG so it was extremely sweet. It did make a good addition to beer bread though.

 

[IslandLizard]

That has to be the best explanation of OG, SG and the relationship of fermentables I have ever read! Maybe helped by reading about it over and over again, but the way you presented it has made the most sense.

My common practice has been to partial boil per instructions as well as all DME or LME at the beginning of the boil, and yes, full boil for the hops at the designated times.

Just before my first club meeting my LHBS had a brewing with extract class. I had not been replacing the evaporated water from my boil. Hadn’t even taken that into account.


Veering slightly off topic...

For National homebrew day we set up a canopy in the parking lot of my LHBS, 10% off ingredients and equipment to be used. I chose their Budweiser clone to make for family reunion, not my preferred beer, but...

5 gallon batch and decided to add Citra 5 minuets before flameout. Watched a number of videos today on washing and saving the yeast. I have another of those kits I’m going to experiment using the same yeast from my current batch. It was a dry yeast, Safale us-05. I assume I can still harvest? Also I read when doing this some of the hops will stay with the yeast. I also assume the hops wouldn’t be not quite as pronounced in a second 5 gallon batch using the normal hops in the kit as scheduled, well, with the second half of the DME at flameout.

This is a very fun hobby with lots of room to learn and grow!

Glad you like and may help you along modifying kits, on the road to brewing better beer. Most kit instructions are truly deplorable, and need serious updates and revisions. It looks like the bigger or more popular the supplier the worse the instructions, generally. It's a real shame.

The gravity calculations are quite basic, and can be found in Palmer's book and elsewhere, some included in interactive (online) calculators, such as Brewer's Friend.

Sad to say, most brewshops follow the "simpler is better" dogma, and many as if it were a Martha Stewart's cooking show.

Funny you bring up the Budweiser clone. Even if the kit extracts indeed contained 30-40% sugars from corn adjunct, it would still be about impossible to clone. But chances are you brewed a very decent beer. Alas, being an ale.
So adding Citra to that surely takes it into a different direction all for the better.* I just wish you had added it when the wort had cooled down to about 170F and let it stand for 20' like that with a gentle stir every few minutes. Then chill down as usual, and dilute in the fermentor to intended gravity.

* Not everyone likes Citra, but those who do usually love it.

Sure you can harvest the yeast. I wouldn't even bother to rinse it. Sure there will be trub included, but the carryover to the next batch is truly minimal given the small volume involved. Besides, those hops have given off most of their goodness already.
Now when you dry hop a 5 gallon batch with 6-16 oz of dry hops, you'll have a serious hop trub layer on the bottom, and if you were to brew a much more subtle, low hop beer (e.g., a Cream ale) with some of that very trubby yeast slurry, be ensured, you'll notice it.

 

[IslandLizard]

WOAH! Hold on right there! There are certainly a few no no’s!

So glad you mentioned this. That video is a homebrewer's classic and a must watch.
You'll never forget his expressive face toward the end.

Let's not forget, brewing is both ingredients and process.
It's not like 50/50 or 20/80, or 90/10. With the best process, if even one of the ingredients is off you may end up with a dumper. With the best ingredients, if one of your process steps is off, your beer may be undrinkable.

Usually errors on either side are smaller and we call it decent beer and drink lots of it. Brewing really good beer does take a lot more care on all variables. Or sometimes you're just lucky when all parameters stack up in your favor.

 

[ncbrewer]

I have some concern about adding water to the boil as it evaporates. When I add a cup of rehydrated yeast nutrient to the boil, it stops the boil for maybe 2 minutes (rough guess). I see stopping the boil as undesirable - an opportunity to get some scorching. I think you're better off not adding water as it boils off. Food for thought.

 

[IslandLizard]

I have some concern about adding water to the boil as it evaporates. When I add a cup of rehydrated yeast nutrient to the boil, it stops the boil for maybe 2 minutes (rough guess). I see stopping the boil as undesirable - an opportunity to get some scorching. I think you're better off not adding water as it boils off. Food for thought.

Excellent point!
Agree, it going off boil may cause scorching, especially with high gravity wort, thin kettle bottoms, and powerful burners.

Let me refine that: Add boiling water!
Most partial brewers brew on a stove, so keeping a pot with some very hot or simmering water on the side is easy enough.

Or better yet, if the size of the pot allows, start with a higher volume so you have something to boil off. Boiling off 1/2 a gallon to a gallon per hour is very common, more so with a fan hood running.

 

[bleme]

I see stopping the boil as undesirable - an opportunity to get some scorching.

I'm not seeing how this happens. Can you explain more?

 

[kh54s10]

So glad you mentioned this. That video is a homebrewer's classic and a must watch.
You'll never forget his expressive face toward the end.

Let's not forget, brewing is both ingredients and process.
It's not like 50/50 or 20/80, or 90/10. With the best process, if even one of the ingredients is off you may end up with a dumper. With the best ingredients, if one of your process steps is off, your beer may be undrinkable.

Usually errors on either side are smaller and we call it decent beer and drink lots of it. Brewing really good beer does take a lot more care on all variables. Or sometimes you're just lucky when all parameters stack up in your favor.

I agree with all of this but in most cases you have to really err on the bad side to totally ruin a beer. I find it easy to brew a good beer not to hard to make a very good beer, a bit difficult to make a REALLY good beer. But also difficult to totally ruin a beer. Most beginner "have I ruined by beer" end up with RDWHAHB. The ones that are really ruined come from infections (bad processes) or doing something stupid like adding 6 pounds of sugar to a kit.

 

[ncbrewer]

I'm not seeing how this happens. Can you explain more?

While the wort is boiling, the rising bubbles stir it very well, preventing scorching. I stir very little during the boil - almost none at all. When the boil stops, but the heat is still on, you can get scorching of the wort on the very bottom.

I don't worry about adding water during the boil. The boil-off roughly leaves room for the extract that is added at flameout. I know not much freeboard is needed at flameout since it isn't boiling, but I don't see the slightly more concentrated wort as a major issue. Just use a little less extract at the beginning to compensate.

 

[OpenSights]

Wow! Lots of great info! Thanks!

One thing that I’ve been doing is stirring my boil every 5 minuets or so as to not scorch, like I would with soup. Obviously wort is not soup, but I guess it sounded like a good idea.

I have my brewing club meeting tonight in about 45 minuets so I’m going to reread when I get home.

One bonus besides borrowing equipment is one of the members either owns or works for a propane company. $10 for an exchange!

 

[OpenSights]

Good meeting! Got some very good feedback on my chocolate cherry stout! Base was my LHBS kit called “Half Pound Stout”. My changes happened in secondary, otherwise I followed the instructions to the letter. I soaked a whole brewers best bag of coco nibs in vodka for a month while the beer was in the fermenter (work got crazy!). Transferred into secondary and added the soaked nibs, a pound of frozen, then crushed tart Michigan cherries and some organic, preservative free tart Michigan cherry extract to taste. Two weeks in secondary. To be honest, wasn’t what I thought it would turn out like I expected. With constructive criticism, I think I know what I need to do with my next batch. Info from here and from the people who could actually taste it. Red Ledge Brewers are 30 or so years old, even have a competition judge. He didn’t give me any tips on brewing, just some feedback on areas he looks for.

The better description of what I wanted to make was a dark chocolate, tart cherry stout.

Suggestions were... instead of soaking the nibs in vodka, use a vanilla bourbon. With a stout, heck yeah. I prefer Canadian whiskey, but I have had some stouts aged in bourbon barrels that were great! Another suggestion was a touch of hazelnut. And of course the other half of the DME at flameout.

Got to taste off flavor beers, a sweet mead that blows any commercial/craft I’ve tried out of the water! And I don’t like sweet stuff! And he’s new to it.

Second meeting, and I love it! We’ve had other events, but I’m glad I joined. Really learning a lot! Made some good friends! Going to start growing hops with a buddy of mine.

 

[Gentle Jesus]

@ Lizard Man

I appreciate the mention, well quick summary, of the partial mash. You listed grains that I planned on steeping until now. Roommate has a souve cooker that I will use to hold at a consistent 150F for an hour. Thanks

 

[IslandLizard]

@ Lizard Man

I appreciate the mention, well quick summary, of the partial mash. You listed grains that I planned on steeping until now. Roommate has a souve cooker that I will use to hold at a consistent 150F for an hour. Thanks

YVW!

Sous-Vide sounds like overkill.

Are you planning to use a bag to hold the grain and water?

With the bag it would work if it's large enough to hold your mashing grains and water. I'd say you need at least 1 quarts of water per pound of grain inside the bag, which is still very thick. So agitate often. The water is essential, as that's where the enzymatic conversion takes place.

Without the bag, hmmm, may create a real mess. Careful the heating element doesn't scorch the mash.

Really, a large pot, a hotel pan, or even a clean, degreased and non-rusty roasting pan in a warm but turned-off oven works like a charm and is easy to clean.

 

[DownstairsBrewing]

@ Lizard Man

I appreciate the mention, well quick summary, of the partial mash. You listed grains that I planned on steeping until now. Roommate has a souve cooker that I will use to hold at a consistent 150F for an hour. Thanks

Good grief - I have an Anova sous vide, and until now it has never even entered my mind how useful that could be.

 

[Gentle Jesus]

YVW!

Sous-Vide sounds like overkill.

Are you planning to use a bag to hold the grain and water?

With the bag it would work if it's large enough to hold your mashing grains and water. I'd say you need at least 1 quarts of water per pound of grain inside the bag, which is still very thick. So agitate often. The water is essential, as that's where the enzymatic conversion takes place.

Without the bag, hmmm, may create a real mess. Careful the heating element doesn't scorch the mash.

Really, a large pot, a hotel pan, or even a clean, degreased and non-rusty roasting pan in a warm but turned-off oven works like a charm and is easy to clean.

Well I would essentially just be using it to maintain a specific temperature, unless doing a partial mash doesnt require too much precision in the way of temp. I also have a 1.5 gallon pot that I would use (only a 1 gallon batch ) and a grain bag to keep the grains in. I will have to test and make sure that the particulates dont mess around with the heating element.

 

[IslandLizard]

Well I would essentially just be using it to maintain a specific temperature, unless doing a partial mash doesnt require too much precision in the way of temp. I also have a 1.5 gallon pot that I would use (only a 1 gallon batch ) and a grain bag to keep the grains in. I will have to test and make sure that the particulates dont mess around with the heating element.

Mash is sticky, but it will rinse off. Precision is good, that's what we try so hard to maintain, exact temps, throughout for an hour. In practice, a degree or 2 slip is hardly noticeable. Apparently we have larger deviations in the various processes when brewing our relatively small batches.

With a partial/mini mash don't put the grains in a grain steeping bag, water may not reach well enough inside. The grains kinda need to "swim," being exposed to the water. You've got to stir that mash when you combine the milled grains with the hot water, so there are no clumps (dough balls). Then stir again a few more times during that hour, and again well after the hour. Use about 1.25-1.5 quarts per pound of grain, that's a good ratio.
However, you can use a BIAB method for mini mashes, those special bags are roomy and pretty tightly woven.

Make sure you have enough diastatic power in your partial mash/mini mash. When in doubt, add a pound (or 2) of a base malt (2-row, Ale malt, Pilsner, Wheat Malt, etc.) to boost it.
Vienna converts itself plus maybe a quarter to half its weight of an adjunct.
Munich (<10°L) can just convert it self, but nothing else.
Darker Munich (>10°L) cannot convert itself, it needs a base malt addition to help out.
Flaked goods have no diastatic power, neither have Crystal or Cara malts, Carapils, Carafoam, Biscuit malt, Honey malt, Brown Malt, Melanoidins, Roasted goods, etc.

Before you decide to do a mash, please read up about it in the respective chapter in Palmer's Book. The Online version is good enough.
It's not that hard, just a few rules and an hour to mash.

 

[TwistedGray]

Using a sous vide in a partial mash or steeping grain step is like commuting an hour in a semi ... you can do it, but why. As noted above, a few degrees one way or another isn't life or death, 10s of degrees...perhaps a different story. I'd rather be on the cold side of things, fwiw.

I use my sous vide when kettle souring as that's essential.

 

[ancientmariner52]

I have no experience with sous vide machines. For small batches, could you use it in a double boiler arrangement? That way the heating element would never see anything but pure water.

 

[Gentle Jesus]

Mash is sticky, but it will rinse off. Precision is good, that's what we try so hard to maintain, exact temps, throughout for an hour. In practice, a degree or 2 slip is hardly noticeable. Apparently we have larger deviations in the various processes when brewing our relatively small batches.

With a partial/mini mash don't put the grains in a grain steeping bag, water may not reach well enough inside. The grains kinda need to "swim," being exposed to the water. You've got to stir that mash when you combine the milled grains with the hot water, so there are no clumps (dough balls). Then stir again a few more times during that hour, and again well after the hour. Use about 1.25-1.5 quarts per pound of grain, that's a good ratio.
However, you can use a BIAB method for mini mashes, those special bags are roomy and pretty tightly woven.

Make sure you have enough diastatic power in your partial mash/mini mash. When in doubt, add a pound (or 2) of a base malt (2-row, Ale malt, Pilsner, Wheat Malt, etc.) to boost it.
Vienna converts itself and can likely convert another pound of an adjunct.
Munich (<10°L) can just convert it self, but nothing else.
Darker Munich (>10°L) cannot convert itself, it needs a base malt addition to help out.
Flaked goods have no diastatic power, neither have Crystal or Cara malts, Carapils, Carafoam, Biscuit malt, Honey malt, Brown Malt, Melanoidins, Roasted goods, etc.

Before you decide to do a mash, please read up about it in the respective chapter in Palmer's Book. The Online version is good enough.
It's not that hard, just a few rules and an hour to mash.

Ok interesting stuff. I actually just picked up two books in the last week, so I may just rely on the internet for now.

But specifically what you mentioned, for example, would I need to add 2-row to flaked wheat/flaked oats just to convert it? Also I do have BIAB but I wish they made a cool little 1 gallon size bag, as the smallest they go is 5ish gallons.

 

[Gentle Jesus]

Using a sous vide in a partial mash or steeping grain step is like commuting an hour in a semi ... you can do it, but why. As noted above, a few degrees one way or another isn't life or death, 10s of degrees...perhaps a different story. I'd rather be on the cold side of things, fwiw.

I use my sous vide when kettle souring as that's essential.

Perhaps you are right octopus man. The only reasons I wanted to use it is because it never gets used, and I could set the temp and walk away without babying a propane stove top. But since a few degrees wont hurt, I will just revert to the stove top I think.

 

[TwistedGray]

Perhaps you are right octopus man. The only reasons I wanted to use it is because it never gets used, and I could set the temp and walk away without babying a propane stove top. But since a few degrees wont hurt, I will just revert to the stove top I think.

BUT now you can make a kettle sour (start here)

 

[Gentle Jesus]

BUT now you can make a kettle sour (start here)

Wow interesting. I am not too familiar with kettle sours but I will look it into, especially since it doesnt seem to take too long to make.

 

[TwistedGray]

Wow interesting. I am not too familiar with kettle sours but I will look it into, especially since it doesnt seem to take too long to make.

Quick turn around...join the FotD trade thread and you might get some kettle sours in your belly. Give you an idea of what to expect.

 

[Gentle Jesus]

Quick turn around...join the FotD trade thread and you might get some kettle sours in your belly. Give you an idea of what to expect.

I mean I have had plenty of sours before (Mraz Brewing Company is amazing for sours), I am just unsure what exactly a kettle sour is. More like a berliner weisse?

 

[IslandLizard]

Ok interesting stuff. I actually just picked up two books in the last week, so I may just rely on the internet for now.

But specifically what you mentioned, for example, would I need to add 2-row to flaked wheat/flaked oats just to convert it? Also I do have BIAB but I wish they made a cool little 1 gallon size bag, as the smallest they go is 5ish gallons.

Palmer's online How to Brew book is old, very concise, and still valid. That link takes you to the all grain section, mostly about mashing. It gives you an idea what the mash does. Or look up (partial or mini) mash on the innuhnets, there's a lot around. His latest, 4th edition is very up to date with today's homebrewing techniques and applications.

Yes, indeed, you need a base malt, like 2-row or wheat malt, to convert the wheat flakes. 1.5 pound of 2-row or wheat should be able to convert 2 pounds of any flaked product. The average Diastatic Power (DP) of your grist mix should be around 35°Lintner. 2-row is around 120-140, Wheat Malt 150-180. The darker the malt, the lower the DP generally. So 1.5# of 2-row + 2# of flaked wheat has a combined DP of 120-140 (2-row) + 0 (flaked wheat) / 3.5# (total weight) = 34-40. A DP of 30-35 is about the minimum you'd need for full conversion. Better err toward the higher number.

Can't you use the large bag, just drape a portion of it inside the pot? Tie the rest off.
You could buy some voile curtain material and make your own small BIAB bag on a sewing machine. Gallon paint strainer bags maybe a bit too coarse, but you can always pour the captured wort through the heap of grain again, until the running are (nearly) clear. The grain is a great filter bed.