Modifying a stock pot for kettle cooling (with illustrations)

[Xier]

Hello!

So, I have drafted up a concept of what I am planning.



As you can see, it is a large stock pot that has had a thermometer, cooling coil and siphon tube modified onto it.

I bought four glass carboys, but then found out later that they were not capable of being heated to the temperatures found after mashing. Basically, if I dump my hot mash into these carboys they will shatter.

The solution it seems is to create a way to cool the mash before putting it into the carboys. The problem then becomes how to avoid contamination.

My idea is to put a glass siphoning tube into my mashing pot. The mash will be brought to a full boil. Then, I will use the cooling coil to bring it down to a reasonable temperature. After that, I will use the siphon to draw it into the carboy(s) without exposing it to contamination.

The carboys have rubber stops for lids. I plan to put a glass siphoning tube into them just like the mash pot.

The first step will be to put four holes into the stock pot:

There are three at the top. Two are for the cooling coil and the other is for the siphoning tube. The one on the side is for the thermometer.

Next, I will put rubber stops into the holes to seal them off:

This should form a pretty decent seal.

Finally, I will put small holes into the rubber stops and force my instruments through them:



It should all be pretty secure at that point. I figure if I draw a siphon and quickly pop the siphoning line onto the glass tube from the carboy, I should be able to avoid much contamination.

Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions? I want to add some kind of filter at the bottom to collect the grain and such but haven't worked that out yet.

 

[rswilson411]

I think you may have your terminology mixed up...or I'm just confused because of a lack of coffee so far today.

Are you referring to the wort when talking about dumping it into your carboys? You wouldn't dump the mash in, you would mash out and drain the wort out of the grains to boil. Then cool, then transfer to your carboy.

Your built in wort chiller looks good. There are a couple of other designs of ones that are built in. You can probably just do a search to look some up. Most people have a port towards the bottom of the pot to transfer the cooled wort to their fermentors of choice. Good luck and keep posting your progress...it could be useful for someone else.

 

[KurtB]

I'm sort of lost as well...

The glass carboys are what your cooled wort will be put into so the yeast can ferment it into Beer.

Yes, you have to be careful with your sanitation when cooling the wort before putting it into the carboy, but I see a few issues with this design.

Unless this is also your brew kettle where the boil is taking place, you will have to transfer the boiling hot wort into this kettle.

If this is your brew kettle, I doubt the rubber stopper with the thermometer will be able to withstand the boiling of the wort. Not to mention the mess that will happen when it is knocked loose when stiring the wort.

Finally, having the pot uncovered should allow for a faster cooling and maybe even the last remains of DMS to escape. Not to mention keeping the wort moving somehow (stiring, whirlpooling) will allow the cooler to work more efficiently.

 

[Xier]

It seems I had my terminology mixed up. To my credit, it was pretty late at night when I posted.

Yes, this will be the brew kettle, as well. I think the rubber stops will do just fine. They are auto-clavable science-grade stops. I pressure sterilized them last night before the post and they stood up just fine.

To keep the contents of the wort from spilling out, I will make the holes in the stock pot very small and then force a larger rubber stop in. The same applies when inserting the chiller and thermometer into the stops. I will put smaller holes and force the equipment in, to insure a solid fitting.

You know, I was thinking of adding some kind of stirring device and an additional hole for ventilation but had not put it into the design yet. When I get back from work this afternoon, new pictures will be uploaded with all the new bells and whistles.

Rswilson411, KurtB, thank you both for your input. It gave me a lot to think about and I know it will help insure the best final product.

 

[zepolmot]

I don't think you want a lid on your brew kettle either. DMS is boiled off during the hour long boil and you want that to happen. Having a closed lid will cause it to condense back into the beer. Just to revisit the stopper issue one more time, a piece of metal under direct heat from a flame may still wind up being a harsher heat source than a pressure sterilization. I would test with water before going to the beer just to be safe. Looks like a really neat idea.

 

[JoshuaW]

I'm worried that pressure buildup in a closed design will blow those, not so much that the rubber would give out. Something to consider.

If at all possible, do a valve and dip tube at the bottom instead. Siphoning is another contamination risk (auto siphon helps). A whirlpool would be useful, but other than those modifications it looks fantastic! I'm impressed! Oh, and yes to ventilation. You typically lose a bit during boil, and you don't want pressure building. With ventilation your stoppers might even work as planned.

Keep up the good work, I have been following several of your threads and your resourcefulness is inspiring.

 

[Xier]

Zepolmet,
I think I have come up with a solution that should be able to take care of all of it. It has a flappable lid. That way, I can keep it open during boil and then close it when I start the chill phase. Don't worry, I will run it with water for a good several hours before I even think about putting beer into it!

Joshua,
Another hole has been put into the design at the bottom. I think this system will really be able to do what I need. Actually, I have pretty much revamped the whole thing.

So, here is what I have now:



As is visible, I added the flap at the top and put an additional tube into the side near the bottom. The original siphoning tube is now going to be an intake. The one at the bottom will be connected to a water/sludge pump. That way, the water keeps flowing. The pump will then feed the worth back into the pot through the top.

Now, here is where it gets really interesting. I realized that I could then filter out the grains and such right after mashing by connecting another addition. Basically a little box with a valve intake at the top, a filter, and a valve out that would lead to the pump.

I then thought, hell, I could just put the grain bill into this at the beginning. Basically, I will lift the lid on this and fill it full of my grains/hops/etc. Then fill the mashing tub with water. After mashing, I will turn off the pump and clamp the line leading into the filter-box. Then, I will empty out the junk, unclasp the intake, turn on the pump and continue onto boiling the wort.

When it finishes boiling, I will connect the cooling apparatus to the sink faucet and let it run, after closing the top-flap. Once cooled, I will pitch the yeast into the system someplace, the filter-box or flap, and disconnect the line leading back into the pot.

Taking the line, I will connect it into the fermentation bottles' intakes and let it drain/siphon in.

Also, when I remove the grain, etceteras, I will fill the filter-box with water, to avoid oxidation.



Maybe this can help explain it all a bit better.

 

[Bobby_M]

I have no idea what you are trying to do here.

 

[Xier]

Basically, I want to combine a mash tun and a wort kettle, all the while trying to make the system completely closable. When it comes time to cool down the wort, the system gets closed up to prevent contamination. Then, it is pumped into the fermenters when it is cooled.

The system would also make it very easy to dry hop and what not.

 

[HopSecret]

I'm not entirely following your plan here, but I can offer one suggestion. Insert the stoppers from the inside. That way pressure actually seats them more tightly rather than pushing them out. Good luck.

 

[KurtB]

Cleaning all of the grist out of the boil kettle will be very difficult, not to mention sparging. If you decided to no sparge, it may work.

You mentioned using it to dry hop. Will you be fermenting in the kettle also? If you are worried about making a closed system to prevent contamination, how will you be transfering the wort from this contraption into the fermentor and pitching the yeast? If you follow good sanitation practices, you don't really need a closed system when cooling your wort (unless things are a lot worse than I thought in Tianjin).

Regardless, it seems like a lot of extra work to solve a non-issue. There are a number of people that simply drain wort from their keggles, through a plate chiller, and recirculate the wort back into the kettle until cool. Once it is down to yeast pitching temps, they drain the kettle into the fermentor, pitch yeast, seal the fermentor attach an airlock and wait for the yeast to work their magic.

You would not happen to be an engineer, would you?

 

[Revvy]

I hereby nominate this for the first annual HBT Rube Goldberg Needlessly Overcomplicated Brewing Gadget Award.

 

[Xier]

HopSecret,
Brilliant! That is a great idea. Thank you for the suggestion.

KurtB,
The little glass thing with the filter, next to the pot, will hold all the grains and hops.

The greenish brown stuff, that is drawn using mspaint, is the grain bill and what not.

The lid of the pot will be removable. When it is pulled off, the cooling coil and intake tube will both come with it. I lack experience with 3D pictures so in the illustration the tube kind of just ploughs through the coil.

When I make the actual system, the coil will bend, going over the output tube. The thermometer could be a problem, so I will simply use one with a shorter probe.

To get the wort into the fermenter, a clamp will be placed on the tubing over the pot intake. Then, I will disconnect it from the pot intake and connect it into the fermenter intake. The fermenters have rubber stops for lids and a long glass tube going through the stop and down to the bottom.

No, I am not an engineer. I am just a man with a lot of free time in the afternoons!

Revvy,
What is the meaning of this? Needless and complicated used together in the same sentence, absurd! Haha, well, once my wife allows me to spend money again, she was not as thrilled as I was with the price of the four glass carboys, I will take the diagram and build one for you all to see exactly what I mean. Perhaps, I could make a video showing how I use it, also.

 

[CourtHouseBrewing]

Xier,
It looks like a two pot system. You have a Mash pot and you use the other pot with the coil for both the HLT and the brew kettle. With the pump you can mash through the coil of the HLT then when you use it to cool the wort it will also clean it out. I love the old school carboys. I remember them in science class so many years ago. That’s neat. You go man, there are many ways to do something right and not everyone will see or chose the same way. Please keep us updated. I love your graphics; I wish I was that good.

 

[stamandster]

I'm slightly confused as some of the others here. Are you doing this to bring the glass up to temperature so it doesn't shatter from a shock in temperature change?

Do you have actual pictures because that may help some of us more than illustrations to understand it all I think the size difference is throwing some off.

 

[Bobby_M]

There's a major terminology rift going on here. I think the OP's use of "mash" is really "wort" but then there's also reference to a filtered grant device to hold grain and hops? No disrespect, but have you ever brewed before Xier? I'd spend some time over at howtobrew.com and then revisit your CAD program after.

 

[stamandster]

Reading his first post over again. He's not using any sort of filter/false bottom in his mash tun/bk. He wants to filter in the carboy somehow, to "catch the grain" (not sure how a filter is going inside of the carboy). He's going to cool his wort down before entering it into the carboy using the IC built into the pot lid.

Using gravity, I assume, he'll transfer from the pot to the carboy through a rubber stopper in the top of the carboy. I'm still not sure why he's got the line coming back to the pot though. It looks though like he wants to recirc after it goes into the carboy in hopes of filtering the wort with whatever the filter is within the carboy.

The picture I think is misleading in that it shows "mash" in the carboy when he means "wort" (like bobby said).

 

[KurtB]

terminology asside, now that the clarification has been made that all of the grain will be in the "little glass thing", it does seem to be something similar to a 2 pot system.

At this point, I agree with Bobby, maybe spend a bit of time on howtobrew.com to at least get the terminology straight so we can better understand what it is you are doing, and the reasons why. Once we have that info, we will be more that willing to help you fine tune the process. There are a lot of examples of 2 or 3 pot systems that can be used as the jumping off point for the modifications you are looking to do.

 

[Xier]

You gentlemen are absolutely right. My terminology was completely out-of-whack. I was not even aware of the term two-pot system until reading your replies. I thank you for taking the time to try to decipher what I was spewing and will attempt to explain it all very concisely, without using incorrect terminology.



Since I do not yet know the correct terminology, I will instead use numerical and alphabetical labels. It is in fact a two pot system.

The system will be connected by hoses of some sort. Port 1 will connect to port 2, 3 to 4 and, finally, 5 to 6. This creates a closed loop.

Device A will hold liquid only. It is a large pot with 5 holes in it. The holes are plugged with:
Port 1; an output
Port 6; an input
Port alpha; an input made of copper that coils around inside in order to cool the liquid by connecting with my kitchen sink's faucet
Port beta; the output of the copper tube Port alpha, will drain into my kitchen sink's tub
A thermometer; to monitor the temperature of the liquid inside Device A

Device B is used to hold any non-liquid materials, such as grains and hops. It is made of:
Port 2, an input
Port 3, an output
A false bottom, to insure non-liquids do not pass through

Finally, Device C is a pumping device, similar to what is used to drain pools or ponds.
It consists of:
Port 4, an input
Port 5, an output

Directions of usage:
Device A will be placed on the stove.
A clamp will be put onto the out tube from Port 1 to 2.
I will fill Device A with the amount of liquid I choose to brew, such as five gallons.
Device B will be filled with the grains I intend to use.
Device A will be heated to 50 degrees Celsius
After Device A reaches 50 degrees, the clamp between port 1 and 2 will be remove and the pump will be activated
I will hold the temperature at 50 degrees Celsius for thirty minutes.
I will then increase the stove's heat output till I have stabilized the liquid within Device A at 60 degrees Celsius.
Then, another thirty minutes will pass.
Finally, I will increase the temperature to 70 degrees Celsius and hold it for a final 30 minutes.
After this, I will turn off the pump and clamp the tube between Port 1 and 2, once again.
The lid on device B will be lifted and the grain removed. I plan to have placed the grain into a holder for easy removal.

Next, hops will be placed into Device B and the lid resealed.
The clamp from Port 1 to Port 2 will be removed and the pump reactivated.
I will then bring Device A to a full boil
When hops or other additions need to be added or removed, the clamp will be placed back on and the pumping system turned off. After the change, it will be started back up again and the clamp removed.

Finally, when the liquid has boiled adequately, I will place a fine filter into Device B.
I will turn off the stove and connect Port alpha to my kitchen sink's faucet. Port beta will be connected to a tube feeding into the kitchen sink's tub.
I will turn on said faucet at a cold setting, causing the liquid in Device A to rapidly cool.
Once a low enough temperature has been reached, the pump will be turned off and a clamp will be placed on the tube between Ports *5 and 6*.
I will then disconnect said tube from Port 6 and connect onto Port 7, not pictured, which is the top of my carboy.

The pump will be turned back on and the liquid will be pumped into the carboy.
After filling adequately, said tube will be re-clamped and removed from Port 7.
Yeast will be pitched into Port 7 and an airlock will be placed into it.

I apologize if that was all a little too verbose, but hell, I want to make sure I am being completely understood. I have a sore throat and won't be capable of teaching today, so I called in sick. That gives me time to read into the links provided.

Thank you all for your suggestions and assistance. Hopefully, this will make my system more understandable.

CourtHouseBrewing,
I appreciate all your encouragement! It feels good to have someone egging me on, so to speak. Once I am paid this month, the design will be built and I will post pictures of the actual system. You were right about it being a two-part system.

Stamandster,
No, the glass carboys will not be heated at all. I think you mistook Device B to be a carboy when it is, in-fact, just to hold solids during mashing and boiling. But you are right, the system circulates through two different pots.

Bobby_M,
Sorry, it is that the system will both mash and boil the wort which had me using the wrong terms. Also, my experience surely played a part. No you are quite right, this will be my first attempt at brewing.

KurtB,
Yes, I will definitely need to do some reading if I am to be able to communicate with other brewers. Terms like "little glass thing" are horrid descriptors, with "Device B" being not much better. None-the-less, I hope it was clear enough to make my system understandable.

Till next time

 

[Xier]

So, I read through much of howtobrew.com and feel that my system should actually be extremely efficient, one of the best around. (not to brag)

It allows for optimal lautering/sparging, with a continuous flow through the grain bed.
I will not have to worry about getting a stuck sparge.
I can easily perform multi-step mashing.
The mash and wort, same thing in my system, is constantly circulating to prevent uneven heating and such.
Adding hop and adjuncts during the boil will be extremely easy.
After the boil has cooled I could even dry-hop by just throwing hops into Device B and letting the pump circulate through it for a bit, before even putting it into the fermenter.

The more that I read, the more I feel this setup should work beautifully well. It could even be scaled up later on if I decided to do so.

Is anyone seeing any problems that I do not?

 

[Burgs]

So, during the boil, are you trying to pump your boiling wort through device B the entire time? And device B isn't heated in any way, correct?

The other part I understand, a lot of people recirculate their mash - that's cool. I also understand wanting to recirculate your wort through a hops-filled device B at the end of the boil - that's basically a hopback you're making. But messing with all that during the boil seems inefficient - aren't you going to have a hard time maintaining a boil?

 

[JesseRC]

Well, I'm not here to judge, but like others have stated , maybe you should spend 6 months brewing first with the basics. When I first started brewing I would spend about 8 hours doing all grain. I took a year off of brewing and came back this past October, I dont know what changed, perhaps my outlook or something, but now all my 11gal brew days are about 5 hours. I just keep it simple and its relaxing.

In regards to your idea, I dont mean to burst your bubble, however it does seem like you are reinventing the wheel. I would look up RIMS, HERMS and BIAB. You can do recirculation with all of these and some setups are pretty darn fancy. As for filtering before the carboy, I would keep it simple with a hop blocker or strainer of some sort or even a stainless scrubby. You're gonna get Krausen and yeast in the carboy no matter what you do. If you dead set on filtering, there are filtering systems post fermentation prior to kegging or bottling. As for me, I cold crash for 2 weeks and get clear beer and I throw everything into the carboy. Good luck.

 

[Xier]

Burgs,
I don't see why I should have any problem with the boil. Device A will have the stove heating it throughout it all. After it is all built we can see how well it does. I just like to break problems down into the simplest and most direct solution that I can. If things don't work how I intend, I will go back to the drawing board. You know, if I wanted easy I would just go buy a beer from the store.

JesseRC,
I imagine your enthusiasm has changed. It is natural when you get into something new to be enthralled. As time goes by enthusiasm fades and people tend to settle into a comfortable routine. I am fresh into this and at the peak of my excitement. If I don't start off on a unique path now, chances are that later I never will. Personally, I think evolution happens when things change radically, even if initially they lose some efficiency. Refinement is trying to perfect the system that is already established.

I am comfortable with my set-up and understand how I intend to use it. If it does not work out, I can always try to refine it.

 

[Burgs]

Burgs,
I don't see why I should have any problem with the boil. Device A will have the stove heating it throughout it all. After it is all built we can see how well it does. I just like to break problems down into the simplest and most direct solution that I can. If things don't work how I intend, I will go back to the drawing board. You know, if I wanted easy I would just go buy a beer from the store.

You think you've gotten this broken down into the simplest and most direct solution that you can? Google "BIAB brewing", then Google "immersion chiller". Good luck with your system, dude.

 

[Xier]

Thanks, man. I just want to be able to do all the little bells and whistles too, like sparging and step mashing. Anyway, it's just fun and brewing. Whatever happens, the beer will go on.

 

[JesseRC]

You think you've gotten this broken down into the simplest and most direct solution that you can? Google "BIAB brewing", then Google "immersion chiller". Good luck with your system, dude.

+1000, that's what I'm saying, it already seems like he's not going to be doing a sparge, so why not just skip all the connections and second kettle and just use BIAB with recirculation. Throw in a hop spider and done. BIAB would seem like a more self contained and less prone to contamination if that's what he's trying to accomplish.

JesseRC,
I imagine your enthusiasm has changed.

Oh and my enthusiasm is greater than its ever been, that's why I said I am more relaxed now. Any changes I make are going to be to simplify or make better beer. But before I do that, I'm gonna make sure I research that my ideas have some merit.

I'm not saying your idea is not worthy, I'm just saying check out/google BIAB with re-circulation, HERMS, RIMS and learn from other peoples mistakes and accomplishments. Maybe just use their experiences/ideas to enhance yours. You made a comment about not wanting to "brag" but come on this that your doing isn't new. Transferring wort between containers, step mashing, filtering, etc its all been done before. Some guys have even automated the transfer of fluids via solenoid valves and computers, wireless even. I applaud you for "marching to the beat of your own drum" but just don't come across as trying to teach us something that's been done before and perfected with something over complicated.

 

[Burgs]

*edit* Basically, what Jesse said.

 

[CourtHouseBrewing]

Xier,
Thanks for your kind words.
It was not long ago I started brewing, of course with many more resources in the USA. Yes reading this board and other how to sites has helped me greatly. How else would one know that HLT "Hot Liquor Tank" was not booze but just hot water? Lol...
The only thing I see with what you plan is that you will want to keep all grains and hops you use in a large mesh bag to avoid dough balls (dry Pockets of grain) and prevent them from circulating through your system. Remember you have to clean up and sterilize everything. So in vessel “B” you would do a BIAB (Brew in a Bag) style. To Sparge (rinse the rest of the sugar from the grain) you could add a bucket with a strainer for a bottom that fit over Vessel “B” to drain the bag into your brew Kettle. (Now vessel “B” without grain) Take the hot water from Vessel “A” that is now about 170oF and drain through the grain above your Brew Kettle till the Kettle has the proper amount of liquid and Pre-Brew Gravity.
Now Vessel “B” is raised to a boil. When you need to add hops they too go into a bag and are contained from moving through your system. While you are boiling Take vessel “A” the HLT and convert it to a chiller. If you have access to cheap ice fill the HLT with cold water and add Ice and rock salt like in an Ice Cream maker to super cool the water. Make sure you have sterilized the tubing in Vessel “A” as you will move wort through there into your (really neat) glass carboys. After flame out on the BK pump vessel “B” thru the alpha and beta ports of vessel “A”. Adjust the flow rate and measure the output of the wort going into the carboy to maintain your starting fermentation temperature.
Also Note: Do not cover vessel “B” when it is the brew kettle. You will want to allow the water vapor to escape to get to your (OG) Original Gravity. Also other vapors are released that you do not want in your wort as they spoil the taste of the beer. I’m looking forward, as I know you are, to your first brew.
Brew On!

 

[KurtB]

Xier. Keep reading this website & howtobrew, it will help you better understand what you are trying to do, and the terminology involved.

It sounds like 'A' would be your HLT & Brew Kettle and 'B' would be your Mash/Lauter Tun.

Recirculating the water from 'A' through 'B' and back to 'A' while mashing should work fine. It will take more than 5 gallons to make a 5 gallon batch as the grain will absorb water.

Once you have finished mashing, the wort will have to be captured in A so that it can be boiled (and also so in your example you can clean out B).

After this, is where I think you system will break down.

I would stick with boiling in 'A' and add you hop additions directly to that kettle.

I think you will have a hard time maintaining a boil & a good flow rate while recirculating from 'A' through 'B'. The hops & hot break may clog whatever you are using as a filter in the bottom of 'B'.

Once the boil has finished (about an hour), you can then use the chiller in 'A' to cool the boiled wort.

The boil and the cooling should be done without a cover on the pot.

Then, if you really want to, you could probably circulate the cooled wort through 'B' and somehow filter the wort while it goes into a fermentor.

Pitch the yeast & wait for it to become beer.

As Jesse said, I see nothing that we have not seen 100 times on this board. In some systems, 'B' is an insulated cooler, on others, it is a 2nd pot (and in BIAB, it is just one pot). Some people recirculate while mashing, others do not. And in terms of filtering the cooled wort, many people use some sort of screen or false bottom in the boil kettle that will block the hops while draining the wort into the fermentor.

Good luck.

 

[JesseRC]

XIER, apologies if I've come across as rough. I finally did some homework of my own and realized that you are in China, with limited supplies. I applaud you for trying make do with what you got. I wont criticize you for reaching far in the future with your own concepts before even making your first batch, after all I did build my kegerator and bought all my supplies before even making my first batch. I too just knew this was a hobby I wanted to be a part of.

With that said, I really do encourage you to follow some BIAB, RIMS, HERMS build threads and see what worked for them. You have limited supplies and it would seem critical to get it right the first time. I like to keep it simple cus that causes less screw ups and chances for contamination, but beer is pretty resilient.

If you want to make great beer, focus on the process and dont get hung up on the things that aren't important in making great beer. Focus on controlling mash/fermentation temp, sanitation, sourcing ingredients, recipe formulation, and being able to duplicate a great beer over and over. After that, then these other automations and gadgets might come in handy. Good luck bro.