Mixing different yeast strains in a NEIPA

[Rainy]

I have been following the Treehouse yeast strain thread for a while, and of course using different yeasts at the same time is the main topic there, but it's mixing yeast strains wich need quite different fermentation temperatures.

My question is more about using a mix of different strains of english ale type yeasts to ferment a NEIPA. For example mixing London III and WLP007.
Does anyone have experience with this?
Does it lead to more complexity like with using different kinds of hops or does it make the taste more a blurry mess?
How do you decide on the proportion of the different yeasts?

My guess would be mixed fermentation with different english yeast strains is also easily done as the fermentation temperature is usually similar for different types of english ale yeasts.

Looking forward to hear your ideas about this.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Well historically mixed strains were the norm in all breweries, and British breweries stuck with them for much longer than in other countries - generally until they switched to conicals ~30 years ago, but some still use blends even now.

But typically the bulk of any blend was one strain for high attenuation and one that dropped well, as normally good floccing and good attenuation are antithetical. Any benefits of "complexity" were a by product, and for instance Fuller's had a big run of Champion Beer of Britain once they went down to a single strain in conicals.

You also need a beer where yeast character is obvious, in order to benefit from extra yeast complexity - English beers are typical, but I'd suggest you get diminishing returns in something big and hoppy unless you are messing with really obvious yeast like with those Belgian yeasts in the Treehouse thread. So I'm not sure there's huge advantages in mixing 1318 and WLP007.

Having said that, you never quite know until you actually do the experiment, you never quite know what interactions you're going to get. As I've said over in the Treehouse thread, I've seen definite biotransformation of Chinook with T-58 that is significantly modified when it's also fermented with M36 and WB-06, my guess is that it's something to do with the latter, but WB-06 also just knocks down the overall hoppiness.

 

[Upthewazzu]

Funny you ask this, I was thinking about mixing 1318 & 1272 in my next NEIPA.

 

[Rainy]

Northern Brewer, thanks for the great reply. I didn't know about the common use of multiple strains in english breweries, but the way you explained it it makes sense

I know Cloudwater has been experimenting with fermentation with multiple english yeast strain.

Tremendous Ideas (cloudwater - other half collab) for example was a mix of WLP001 and JW Lees
Their V13 DIPA was a mix of WLP4000 (Vermont ale?) and JW Lees.
Also for a session ipa and multiple NW DIPAS the used the mix of WLP4000 and JW Lees.

Tremendous Ideas and V13 are still two of the best IPAS I've had and I was wondering if this mixed use of english yeasts (although WLP001 could be considered to be American) had something to do with it.
As Northern Brewer said, if your hopping in high amounts, maybe the yeast character night be that obvious. On the other hand, I've done split batches of NEIPAs of the same recipe but with different yeasts and from those experiences I do think that the yeast does have an important impact on the final flavour of an NEIPA. Hence, most people going for London III for their NEIPAS.


The mix of WLP001 and JW Lees makes sense to me as WLP001 would make the beer a bit less sticky and fruity and just more drinkable, as JW Lees can be quite overpowering.

For the mix of WLP4000 and JW Lees, I have no idea what the result there could be, but these two strains do have a more fruity character.

Heck, I think next time I'll brew split batches with different yeasts I'll try to do some blending after fermentation to see what the results could be.

But maybe, there might also be some synergetic effects or inteaction between the yeasts (using each others interemediate products) during fermentation as Northern brewer was hinting at for the Tree House yeast mix fermentations.

But Londen III and wlp007 made sense to me because of wlp007 being a bit less fruity

This blog post also shows a bit their philosophy with using different yeasts.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I know Cloudwater has been experimenting with fermentation with multiple english yeast strain.

Tremendous Ideas (cloudwater - other half collab) for example was a mix of WLP001 and JW Lees
Their V13 DIPA was a mix of WLP4000 (Vermont ale?) and JW Lees.
Also for a session ipa and multiple NW DIPAS the used the mix of WLP4000 and JW Lees.

They did a lot of experiments a year or so ago - but it's notable that they seem to have settled down to using just one yeast in a beer for recent versions of eg NW DIPA. These things are always a compromise between costs and benefits, it seems they think it wasn't worth the faff.

As an aside, Lees is an example of a family brewery that is still using an old-style multistrain that's been repitched for nearly 100 years, so you're only adding one more strain to a whole bunch of them.

On the other hand, I've done split batches of NEIPAs of the same recipe but with different yeasts and from those experiences I do think that the yeast does have an important impact on the final flavour of an NEIPA. Hence, most people going for London III for their NEIPAS.

Heck, I think next time I'll brew split batches with different yeasts I'll try to do some blending after fermentation to see what the results could be.

I'd never ever argue against doing experiments, although I'd note that doing post-ferment blending you won't get the weird yeast interactions, you'll just be blending final results. But going back to what I said before, it's a diminishing returns thing, so the first yeast makes a difference, the second yeast less of a difference and so on. And I guess choosing yeasts that are quite metabolically similar will make less difference that eg mixing British and Belgian yeasts.

But Londen III and wlp007 made sense to me because of wlp007 being a bit less fruity

You want less fruit in your NEIPA?

 

[Rainy]

They did a lot of experiments a year or so ago - but it's notable that they seem to have settled down to using just one yeast in a beer for recent versions of eg NW DIPA. These things are always a compromise between costs and benefits, it seems they think it wasn't worth the faff.

As an aside, Lees is an example of a family brewery that is still using an old-style multistrain that's been repitched for nearly 100 years, so you're only adding one more strain to a whole bunch of them.



I'd never ever argue against doing experiments, although I'd note that doing post-ferment blending you won't get the weird yeast interactions, you'll just be blending final results. But going back to what I said before, it's a diminishing returns thing, so the first yeast makes a difference, the second yeast less of a difference and so on. And I guess choosing yeasts that are quite metabolically similar will make less difference that eg mixing British and Belgian yeasts.



You want less fruit in your NEIPA?

I agree with all off your points. The mixing of British and Belgian yeast could indeed be great in a NEIPA, as Loral and Ardi turned out great last year, although that was just with a Belgian yeast I think.

Either way, mixing yeasts in homebrewing is a bit less cumbersome than on commercial scale, so one of my next brews I'll just try a mix of yeasts to see what it gives. I'm not expecting this to be some magical thing that will make the beer so much more complex, but for the sake of experimenting, it's just a fun thing to do. I'll report back on the results.

Loka Polly is another UK brewer brewing NEIPA's that's using a blend of english yeasts and which seems to find it worth the effort:

"We wanted something way juicier and a bit more delicious from our next batches. These beers would be Citra Simcoe IPA, Huell Melon Pale and Hallertau Blanc Saison. Excluding the Saison, for which we used Belgian yeast - we wanted to blend two English yeasts to create a New-England character to our beers. We had previously tried the new LalBrew New England yeast but it wasn't for us, despite all the hype it created within the industry. We wanted more esters than what we got from that yeast in our Citra Ekuanot NESIPA. So we put together this blend and are more than pleased with the results. We will be looking to implement this blend in pretty much all of our hoppy Pales and IPAs going forward."

"Citra Simcoe IPA - Keg - 6.1%

We wanted to brew a juice bomb; the sort you expect from Verdant, Cloudwater etc. A beer that looks and drinks more like pineapple juice than beer.

For the brewers: 2:1 Chloride / Sulfate ratio water profile, Whirlpool-only hopped with Citra and Simcoe at 6.4g/litre. Double dry-hopped at a rate totalling 17g/litre. Malt bill was fairly straight forward; Maris Otter Extra Pale, Oats, CaraPils and Acidulated.

We hadn't blended yeasts before. Both were traditional English strains. We decided to ferment hot, maximising ester production. We knew these esters would iron out and help saturate the hop flavour from the soon-to-be added large dry hop addition. Yeast was pitched at 24 degrees C and brought down to 19 just past half way through fermentation, then brought back up to 22 to finish off. The first dry hop charge was added at 1.028 s.g at 19.5 degrees C while the final dry hop charge was added at 1.018 (final gravity) at 22 held for 5 days during which the temperature dropped naturally to 17 degrees C. The dry hops were roused gently with CO2 twice a day for 5 days."

 

[Rainy]

Oh, and I do love my NEIPA's a bit more balanced and not overly sweet, with enough room for some more spic, earthy complexity of the hops. Trillium comes to mind.

 

[couchsending]

The Yeast Bay's Hazy Daze culture is a blend of three yeast, that I bet are mostly British in origin. There's
definitely Conan in it but not sure what else. The beer I used it in had awesome peachy aromatics from the
yeast. The recommended pitch rate for it is super low as well to maximize the esters.

I've blended 007 and 1318 before and it was nothing special. I think those yeasts need opposite ends of the
fermentation spectrum to shine.

Hoping to try a blend of 1469 and Conan one of these days. Under pitch it and ferment it on the warm side.

In my experience the T-58/S04 blend fermented cold delivers a really nice orange like ester. Goes great with
Citra and Amarillo. I've given up on using any WB-06, i can pick it out right away.

 

[Rainy]

Thanks for all the great insights. Definitely gave me a better idea of what to expect and what not to expect. The options are pretty endless, especiall when one starts to think about playing with fermentation temperatures and piching rates.

Conincidently, I was drinking an Interboro NEIPA (Watch out now) this weekend and I noticed they mention in the description: "Fermented with our house blend of English and American yeast." So some brewers do seem to think it works for their beers.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The Yeast Bay's Hazy Daze culture is a blend of three yeast, that I bet are mostly British in origin. There's definitely Conan in it but not sure what else. The beer I used it in had awesome peachy aromatics from the yeast. The recommended pitch rate for it is super low as well to maximize the esters.

I'd guess they're trying to out do that Imperial blend that has Conan and Sacc Trois, so I bet Sacch Trois (WLP644) is in there somewhere, and adding their version of 1318 would be an obvious choice.

 

[divrack]

Was going to post a straight up review of my hazy daze experience, but thought I'd track it onto this conversation... Don't think it's a dead thread, just sleeping.
Anyhooslbee...
Made a split batch along the lines of a session neipa recipe. Fair amount of whirlpool and a tonne of active dry hop, bunch of flaked wheat, no caramel, etc.
Split between one keg with hazy and one with juice. Hops were mainly citra Simcoe and Amarillo with a good amount of eukanot.
Results are that the juice is unsurprisingly very pineapple/tropical juice dominated flavour affair, very nice I must say, what you expect from Conan and good, but I have to say hazy was the winner here, despite having half the pitch rate.
Hazy version has a pillowy white malt base left over that the juice lacked, but also has a strongly defined highly aromatic hoppy aroma and taste. It seems the different hop flavours are picked out more distinctly, with the herbal almost minty tang of smelling fresh American hops. I think perhaps in a higher gravity beer I might have preferred the juice as the juice seemed to wrap everything up in a tropical cocktail way that I like in stronger stuff, but I'm pretty blown away by the hazy daze version in this beer.
As for what it is, my original thought as speculated above is mix of saccharomyces bruxelensis and Conan, but I have to say I don't get any of the bruxelensis flavours really.
The basis of it seems a lot like London fog or London iii, but with maybe something Belgian, but not too eatery. I actually wouldn't be surprised if it was a wit strain as there is a bit of pepperyness that comes through. What the third part would be though I don't know. Perhaps just Conan but I have to say that's more my guess than my palette talking.
Anyway enough guessing. Beer two I dumped some unmeasured quantity of dregs into a 45ltr batch of a similar though less bittered batch with less wheat, and it's good and flavour wise the same, however it's easily the most milky beer I've ever made. I generally don't aim for the super super murky things people seem to go for neipa wise but after two and a half weeks plus a week of cold crash there is basically zero flocculation. Mega hazy. Didn't get quite the same level of haze first time round, must have favoured one of the strains when repitching sky-high I'd have expected the more flocculant one to carry over given that I just tipped the fermenting keg dregs

 

[Rainy]

It seems Alvarado Street love the Conan/Sach Trois blend and their beers are indeed very pineapple forward: https://beerandbrewing.com/breakout-brewer-alvarado-street-brewery/

"The jump into the more turbid side of IPAs started with one beer, Contains No Juice, which they brewed with few expectations for the first time just over a year and a half ago. Initial batches were fermented with Vermont Ale yeast, but when their yeast provider, Imperial Yeast (out of Portland, Oregon), suggested they experiment with a blend of Vermont Ale and Saccharomyces Trois, they were quick to try it. Hill doesn’t have the scientific proof to back up the claim, but his sensory evaluation of the beers co-pitched with the two yeast strains has convinced him that biotransformation is happening after packaging.

After we package it and it conditions cold for a week or two, I think you get some biotransformation effect because it’s a completely different beer than when you taste it off the fermenter. It gets crazy fruity, like it’s on steroids. But on the same point, that fruitiness will start to drop off after six weeks or so. These beers are designed to be consumed fresh-ish, but after one or two weeks, something magical happens in some of these beers.”

The term they use for these beers—“IPAs with expressive yeast,” is a term they borrowed from their friends at Cellarmaker Brewing Co. IPA drinkers aren’t conditioned to think of yeast as a primary contributor to the overall flavor (that’s what the hops contribute, after all), but Hill is trying to drive that point home through their menu descriptions.

Brewing with co-pitched yeast can be a significant challenge, especially in a production brewery where cropping, washing, and reusing yeast is standard practice. Hill and his brewing team continuously experiment with new techniques to get better results.

“When you’re dealing with two different yeast strains that work at different temperatures and flocculate at different rates, it can be a little inconsistent batch to batch,” said Hill. “Since we had Vermont and Saccharomyces Trois on hand, we started blending it on our own, and that’s worked well. But it’s also great that these labs are progressive and pushing it.

“We’ve experimented with pulling from different parts of the cone, or rousing the cone a little bit after discarding the unwanted yeast. Pulling from the racking arm. Blending from the cone and racking arm. We’ve tried a bunch of different options, with the blend. No matter what we’ve tried, we’ve found it tends to turn straight Vermont after 4-5 generations, which is fine because Vermont is a wonderful strain.”

One key to consistent results with temperamental yeast is proper pitch rates—cell count is important, and their brewing team is meticulous about making sure enough cells are in solution to create a clean fermentation and not stress the Saccharomyces Trois. Temperature control is equally important with the strain and things can go funky quickly if temperatures get out of range.
"

Interesting podcast in which they explain their process: https://beerandbrewing.com/podcast-episode-6-alvarado-street/