Mirror Pond by Deschutes

[ChiechiBrouw]

Mirror Pond is my White Whale. I've brewed it close to a dozen times, extract, partial-mash, and all-grain, so I'll share my experiences.

I started with complex recipes involving a half-dozen hops and, honestly, it came pretty close, but it never had that "Mir Pon" feel, so I'm back to basics. (FYI I only have access to Belgian malts)

Brewferm Pale 7 EBC (3 kg)
Cara-amber 60 EBC (0.5 kg)

The rest is whole-cone Cascade hops in various amounts and times.

Last time it felt a bit weak all around, so I upped everything, shooting for ~5.5% abv... Overshot and wound up with 6% and the beer is a bit stronger (with respect to malts and hops) than I would like. It's still really tasty!

That batch is sitting in the keg right now:

Belgian Pale 7 EBC (4 kg)
Cara-amber 60 EBC (1 kg)
35 g Cascade 6.8% @ 60
30 g Cascade 6.8% @ 15
Irish moss at 15 min
Re-pitched Wyest 1056 (this is it's third go-around with Mirror Pond)
14 days fermentation at 18 °C.
50 g Cascade 6.8% 14-day dryhop at 18 °C.

I've found the late hop additions to be critical. Usually I split the last addition between 15 min and 5 min, and I think that is a good idea because this batch has a nice nose, but that fresh Cascade hop taste is not as present as it should be. Next time I'm going to try the Dogfish head continuous hopping method and see where that takes me.

 

[ChiechiBrouw]

Going to give it another go next weekend, here is the new (5.5 gal) recipe:

3.5 kg British Lager
1 kg Cara Amber (60 EBC)
0.5 kg Cara-Pils

Mash @150 F, batch sparge @ 168 F

90 min boil.
30 g Cascade (6.8%) 60 min
15 g Cascade (6.8%) 30 min
15 g Cascade (6.8%) 15 min
15 g Cascade (6.8%) 5 min

Re-pitched 1098 British Ale yeast from 2 L starter, ferment at 20 C for one week.

30 g Cascade (6.8%) dry hop for at least two weeks.

Target: 1.054-1.014 (5.26% abv) 40 IBU 19.3 EBC

 

[br1dge]

Btw I like the 63 ferment. Perfect. What's the ferment schedule?

Sorry for the delay. Been a hectic couple days. Brew went great. Finished slightly higher OG at 1.057. I think Im getting closer to 78 or 79% efficiency than the 75% I plugged in. The 1968 was pitched after 24 hrs on the stir plate and took off within 5-6 hours at 63. My pipeline is fairly full right now :rockin: so Im planning to let it sit for 2.5 to 3 weeks before transferring to kegs. Probably dry hop 7 days before I transfer.

 

[br1dge]

My ferment schedule? I don't really schedule anything, but I brewed on April 9, I pitched at 62 degrees, and it's been at 64 degrees since. It's been finished for quite a while, I think. It was fermenting pretty steady for the first four days or so. I'll check the SG tomorrow and dryhop it and then keg it on Monday.

Did you give it the old taste test yet Yooper?? Mine finished after about 4 days but its still sitting in my ferm chamber and probably will be for another 2 weeks. (Im having a CO2 issue I need to fix before I transfer to kegs.)

Let me know how yours turned out and what you FG was.

 

[RIT_Warrior]

It lists it at 40 IBU's on the Deschutes web site

Watch out when you see IBU numbers. There are 3 different ways IBUs can be calculated, Rager, Tinseth and Garetz. Which one is used really isn't important, but you have to be consistent if you want the right results. I'd bet that they are using Rager, but it is possible they are using Tinseth. If you shot them an email they would probably tell you which formula they are using.

Beersmith defaults to Tinseth, and I think Promash defaults to Rager for the IBU calculations.

 

[Yooper]

Did you give it the old taste test yet Yooper?? Mine finished after about 4 days but its still sitting in my ferm chamber and probably will be for another 2 weeks. (Im having a CO2 issue I need to fix before I transfer to kegs.)

Let me know how yours turned out and what you FG was.

The FG was 1.007! I guess my mash temp was too low.

I dryhopped it, and I'll keg it this weekend and sample it then.

 

[BrewThruYou]

I had a lot of Cascade lying around (10 ounces at least), so I tried it this weekend.

My recipe (I'm sure I found somewhere on here) was:

9.5# Maris Otter
1# Crystal 40°L
.25# Carapils

I used S04.

 

[Undrtkr_00]

Anyone get a great clone result? I am dying for a good clone of this beer.

 

[Nugent]

I have been playing with the CYBI clone recipe. The basics of the grist bill are spot on, but I found that what they used, plus their hopping schedule, made it a bit too hoppy to be a clone of the beautifully-balanced MP. I have been adding about 4 oz. of aromatic or melanoiden malt to the grist bill. I feel that it adds that slight bit more maltiness to balance things out. The brewer said that much of the malt flavour comes from the use of the base malt that they use; can't remember it's name, but passed by the malt silos in Vancouver, WA on the train.

In terms of hops, in the last batch that I made, I mixed Centennial and Cascade at a one-third/two-third mix respectively. It has added an additional PNW hoppiness that I like. I find that straight Cascade can be a bit 'dull' and too much has a flavour that I don't like - kinda rubbery(?). Anyway, these are just my fussy tastes. Yeast-wise, a lower attenuator like 1968 or the Wyeast NW Ale yeast is really important for that fruitness.

White whale indeed. I was at the Deschuted brewpub in Portland a month ago drinking MP that had been brewed on site and it's fresher tasting and slightly more bitter.

Just gonna keep trying as the 'test' batches are very good indeed.

 

[ChiechiBrouw]

Anyone get a great clone result? I am dying for a good clone of this beer.

I've tried close to a dozen variations now, and haven not hit the mark yet, but here is are my experiences:

I second the notion that the grain bill is pretty much spot on. I get great results with the following in a 5.5 gal batch:

3.5 kg Marris Otter
1 kg Cara Amber (60 EBC) (AKA Crystal 40°L)
0.5 kg Cara-Pils

In my experience the Maris Otter is key. I've now brewed this with five different base malts, and Maris Otter gives the best results by far. I mash at 150-152 °F.

For yeast, I have the best luck with 1098 British Ale. When I was in Oregon over the summer, I confirmed that this is basically Deschutes' house strain, which they use in MirPon.

Last time I used the following hop schedule:

90 min boil.
30 g Cascade (6.8%) 60 min
15 g Cascade (6.8%) 30 min
15 g Cascade (6.8%) 15 min
15 g Cascade (6.8%) 5 min

30 g Cascade (6.8%) dry hop for two weeks.

The end results is a fantastic IPA, but lacks the subtlety of the Real Thing and is far too hoppy.

In past attempts, I could never get the fresh Cascade hop aroma/taste to come through, and in this batch it was there, but accompanied by too much bitterness. And I think I over did it on the dry-hop... The crystal-clear beer out of the primary wound up hazy and a shade darker in the bottle. I'm really not sure how to address these issues; perhaps eliminating the 30 min addition and halving the dry-hop?

I have to qualify this post a bit. I am trying to brew the MirPon that I remember from ten years ago, which was clean, crisp, balanced, but with a distinct Cascade nose and lingering taste of fresh hops. I find that, in recent years, MirPon has become a bit watered down and a little tamer and it is no longer my favorite beer (still Top Ten though).

However, while I was in Oregon over the summer I was exposed to Deschutes' Red Chair NWPA, which in my mind more closely resembles MirPon from the good 'ol days, but maybe my tastes have just dulled with age I will direct my future cloning efforts at Red Chair.

 

[ChiechiBrouw]

I have been playing with the CYBI clone recipe. The basics of the grist bill are spot on, but I found that what they used, plus their hopping schedule, made it a bit too hoppy to be a clone of the beautifully-balanced MP. I have been adding about 4 oz. of aromatic or melanoiden malt to the grist bill. I feel that it adds that slight bit more maltiness to balance things out. The brewer said that much of the malt flavour comes from the use of the base malt that they use; can't remember it's name, but passed by the malt silos in Vancouver, WA on the train.

In terms of hops, in the last batch that I made, I mixed Centennial and Cascade at a one-third/two-third mix respectively. It has added an additional PNW hoppiness that I like. I find that straight Cascade can be a bit 'dull' and too much has a flavour that I don't like - kinda rubbery(?). Anyway, these are just my fussy tastes. Yeast-wise, a lower attenuator like 1968 or the Wyeast NW Ale yeast is really important for that fruitness.

White whale indeed. I was at the Deschuted brewpub in Portland a month ago drinking MP that had been brewed on site and it's fresher tasting and slightly more bitter.

Just gonna keep trying as the 'test' batches are very good indeed.

Hah--we may have been in that pub at the same time; did they mention anything about some other guy asking a lot of questions for the brew master

That fresher taste is what I remember from the MirPon I drank in college in Oregon. The bottled stuff seems to suffer a bit from the increased production volume. I wonder if what you call "slightly more bitter" is what I call "fresh Cascade hop taste?" Because that is really the fairy dust that makes all of my cloning attempts more homage than mimicry.

 

[puckjer]

guys, i met one of the brewers from Deschutes when he came down to our homebrew competition in dallas back in March. he and i hit it off pretty good and have stayed in touch ever since. i asked him about a mirror pond recipe and these are the details he sent me. he knew i was doing partial mash and tried to scale it as best he could.
7 lbs of pale malt extract
0.6 lbs of C75
0.5 lbs of Dextrin
all hops are cascade
schedule as follows...
75 min 0.5 oz
30 min 0.75 oz
5 min 1.5 oz
dry hopped for 2 weeks with 3 oz of cascade
Wyeast 1187 is what they use and that is their house strain.

i brewed this about a month ago and it came out pretty close. my fermentation temp got a little too high which caused some off flavors so i am going to brew it again. these notes are straight from the brewer at Deschutes so it should be good to go.

 

[ChiechiBrouw]

guys, i met one of the brewers from Deschutes when he came down to our homebrew competition in dallas back in March. he and i hit it off pretty good and have stayed in touch ever since. i asked him about a mirror pond recipe and these are the details he sent me. he knew i was doing partial mash and tried to scale it as best he could.
7 lbs of pale malt extract
0.6 lbs of C75
0.5 lbs of Dextrin
all hops are cascade
schedule as follows...
75 min 0.5 oz
30 min 0.75 oz
5 min 1.5 oz
dry hopped for 2 weeks with 3 oz of cascade
Wyeast 1187 is what they use and that is their house strain.

i brewed this about a month ago and it came out pretty close. my fermentation temp got a little too high which caused some off flavors so i am going to brew it again. these notes are straight from the brewer at Deschutes so it should be good to go.

Ringwood? Who would have guessed... I guess the brewpub in Portland is ill-informed

And now I know what I'm going to be brewing next!

 

[Undrtkr_00]

All right! I'll give this a shot. Thanks!

 

[samc]

This version https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/ca...chutes-mirror-pond-paleae-178959/#post2072120 is pretty close as long as you don't sub the base malt away from GW Pale.

 

[Undrtkr_00]

guys, i met one of the brewers from Deschutes when he came down to our homebrew competition in dallas back in March. he and i hit it off pretty good and have stayed in touch ever since. i asked him about a mirror pond recipe and these are the details he sent me. he knew i was doing partial mash and tried to scale it as best he could.
7 lbs of pale malt extract
0.6 lbs of C75
0.5 lbs of Dextrin
all hops are cascade
schedule as follows...
75 min 0.5 oz
30 min 0.75 oz
5 min 1.5 oz
dry hopped for 2 weeks with 3 oz of cascade
Wyeast 1187 is what they use and that is their house strain.

i brewed this about a month ago and it came out pretty close. my fermentation temp got a little too high which caused some off flavors so i am going to brew it again. these notes are straight from the brewer at Deschutes so it should be good to go.

Quick question... was that 7 lbs of DME or LME? I assume DME but wanted to be sure.

 

[puckjer]

i used LME.

 

[postalbunny]

Bringing this threads back to the top... anyone confirm wyeast 1098 or 1968 as the best strain to use? I've seen in this thread wlp001, wlp002, and both yeast strains. Wondering which would be best fit.

 

[puckjer]

Wyeast 1187 is Deschutes House Strain. i received that info direct from one of the brewers at Deschutes. i used it when i made the clone and it came out great

 

[Nugent]

Wyeast 1187 is Deschutes House Strain. i received that info direct from one of the brewers at Deschutes. i used it when i made the clone and it came out great

I agree with this. 1968 is too sweet IMO; 1187 is drier, but still estery like MP.

 

[postalbunny]

Ok, ill give 1187 a shot. What base grain did you use that turned out good? Pale 2row or marris otter?

 

[Nugent]

I use Gambrinus ESB malt for the base.

 

[dlutter]

Hi,
Like many, Mirror Pond is my favorite beer. I've been lurking on and off for a while, but this is my first post. I have brewed about 12 batches using The Joy of Homebrewing 3rd ed ranging from easy all extract to a couple of advanced all grain batches. Most of them have turned out pretty good. I decided this weekend to try my hand at a partial mash Mirror Pond.

I used this recipe as a guide with a couple of changes:

guys, i met one of the brewers from Deschutes when he came down to our homebrew competition in dallas back in March. he and i hit it off pretty good and have stayed in touch ever since. i asked him about a mirror pond recipe and these are the details he sent me. he knew i was doing partial mash and tried to scale it as best he could.
7 lbs of pale malt extract
0.6 lbs of C75
0.5 lbs of Dextrin
all hops are cascade
schedule as follows...
75 min 0.5 oz
30 min 0.75 oz
5 min 1.5 oz
dry hopped for 2 weeks with 3 oz of cascade
Wyeast 1187 is what they use and that is their house strain.

i brewed this about a month ago and it came out pretty close. my fermentation temp got a little too high which caused some off flavors so i am going to brew it again. these notes are straight from the brewer at Deschutes so it should be good to go.

Here are the changes:
Steep 0.5 lb 80L crystal malt at 160 for 30 min in 2 gal water.
Add 0.5 Dextrin & 7 lb light LME
Boil for 80 min; same hop addition schedule as above
Total batch volume 5 gal
Wyeast 1332 Northwest Ale

OG was read at 1.030, which seems too low. I know the wort was warmer than 60 but am almost certain it was less than 80. Even with temp correction it still seems low. Oh well, I am sure it will still taste good.

My plan is to transfer to secondary ferment next weekend and dry hop for 2 weeks. I will post here to let you know how it turns out. I think I will try all grain next time. Any thoughts?

 

[postalbunny]

Just a heads up, I emailed the brewery and got confirmation that ringwood ale (1187 wyeast) is the closest thing to their house strain.

Mine shld be ready to try this week, ill post the recipe I used with the taste test.results.

 

[terrenum]

Just a heads up, I emailed the brewery and got confirmation that ringwood ale (1187 wyeast) is the closest thing to their house strain.

Mine shld be ready to try this week, ill post the recipe I used with the taste test.results.

Any updates from brewers that used the RIngwood?

Planning to brew this clone this week-end.
thanks

 

[ChiechiBrouw]

Any updates from brewers that used the RIngwood?

Planning to brew this clone this week-end.
thanks

I have been using Ringwood for all of my Deschutes clones and there absolutely no doubt in my mind that this is the closest commercial yeast to their house strain. I brewed a dead ringer for Black Butte by combing the "recipe" from the Deschutes website with recipes from HBT and substituting Ringwood.

My advice is to give the beer a diacetyl rest; I just let it sit on the yeast cake for two weeks instead of one before racking/dry-hopping. In my experience, Ringwood + diacetyle rest = that je ne sais quoi of Deschutes beer. (Now I just need to figure out the hop schedule for Mir Pon...)

 

[evandena]

What did you guys use for your base grain with 1187?
I'm looking to brew this this weekend. I think I'll try NW 2-row Pale Malt, according to their website that is what they use.

 

[ChiechiBrouw]

What did you guys use for your base grain with 1187?
I'm looking to brew this this weekend. I think I'll try NW 2-row Pale Malt, according to their website that is what they use.

Use NW-2 row if you can get it. I can't get it where I live so I use Marris Otter, which seems to be a reasonable substitute.

 

[evandena]

Wow 13 ounces of Cascade for 10 gallons. Man, I don't remember mirror pond being that hoppy.

 

[ChiechiBrouw]

Wow 13 ounces of Cascade for 10 gallons. Man, I don't remember mirror pond being that hoppy.

Most of is late additions, no? ...at least that has been my biggest challenge with Mir Pon; getting that crisp, fresh Cascade nose without getting to bitter.

 

[evandena]

Most of is late additions, no? ...at least that has been my biggest challenge with Mir Pon; getting that crisp, fresh Cascade nose without getting to bitter.

Yeah, I'm a cheap a$$ brewer, so I'm not used to adding that many hops.