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British Golden Ale Miraculix Best - Classic English Ale

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I vaguely remember a study that focused on the impact of ascorbic acid on the oxidation of the beer.

Your memory is correct. There is data that sugests that while ascorbic can function as an antioxidant early in the brewing process it can also then turn into a super oxidizer later thus accelerating staling.
 
Ok, feeling bad for derailing this thread....

If one was going to try this recipe but couldn't get the imperial pub yeast and wanted a good dry yeast alternative, what would you suggest? It sounds like you want a little yeast character with this recipe so I'm thinking Windsor maybe, or London ESB?
 
After seeing the post about a "Belgian" yeast I figure I should post about my golden syrup vs corn sugar experiment. My experiment was a bust as my English ale immigrated to Belgium sometime after packaging. First I thought it was only the corn sugar half then the golden syrup started showing a phenolic flavor and aroma. Although not the expected flavor profile it was still a nice beer and did not dump it.

I will rebrew this beer again but without experimenting and hopefully without getting it contaminated.

The pictures are from a couple PET bottles I used to test carbonation progression.
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I had a couple beers I did recently where I thought this was the case. Tasted slightly phenolic on opening the first bottle. As it turns out, I was impatient and opened bottles and starting trying the beers after only a week in the bottle. These were 16 oz bottles, too, which I do not normally use except for these British ales. A month in now and I don’t taste that flavor anymore. Weird. And this was my first time using Verdant IPA dry yeast so I’m not sure if that has something to do with it. I normally am not a dry yeast guy.
 
Your memory is correct. There is data that sugests that while ascorbic can function as an antioxidant early in the brewing process it can also then turn into a super oxidizer later thus accelerating staling.
I've heard that too and couldn't find valid resources online, so I discussed this topic with a professional food chemist and he couldn't remember anything within his career that would support this claim. In his own words, he's been using ascorbic acid in varying amounts since the seventies at his job and apart from one mysterious browning (which was not related to oxidation), he didn't witness anything that could implicate that this oxidising effect of vitamin C is actually a real thing.

Ok, feeling bad for derailing this thread....

If one was going to try this recipe but couldn't get the imperial pub yeast and wanted a good dry yeast alternative, what would you suggest? It sounds like you want a little yeast character with this recipe so I'm thinking Windsor maybe, or London ESB?
Verdant IPA would be best I think. Windsor should also work, but it is a poor flocculator, adding Nottingham on day three should help with this but also increase the attenuation, so you would want to mash higher.
 
There's no such thing as a "good" dry yeast for British styles, Verdant seems to be a significant improvement on the previous options but I've not used it.
I agree. Verdant IPA is a completely different beast, compared to the rest of the English dry yeast world. But it is also kind of a unique yeast with its strooong fruitiness. I can fully understand if it's not everybody's cup of tea. I overused it a bit so I'll be skipping it for English styles for the next times I brew, but I might try it in an American style instead.
 
It may be that Ascorbic runs a risk of becoming a SuperOxidizer when metals such as Copper or Iron are present at some level (such as might happen for tap water that sits in Copper or Iron pipes).
 
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It may be that Ascorbic runs a risk of becoming a SuperOxidizer when metals such as Copper or Iron are present at some level (such as might happen for tap water that sits in Copper or Iron pipes.
How and why would be the questions I would ask and also the threshold that would be needed to be reached.
 
Dehydroascorbic plus a water molecule perhaps? Just look up Ascorbic Acid oxidation products. No mention of Citric Acid, and myriads of mentions for Dehydroascorbic.
 
for what it's worth, blind tastes tests at my LHBS had S-4 (recultured second gen) + WLP017 Whitbread was preferred over either separately, Pub or WLP085 for an English London porter tribute (tribute in that this is something akin but not trying to make a clone).
 
for what it's worth, blind tastes tests at my LHBS had S-4 (recultured second gen) + WLP017 Whitbread was preferred over either separately, Pub or WLP085 for an English London porter tribute (tribute in that this is something akin but not trying to make a clone).
Liquid Whitbread would be Wyeast 1099. I do like that yeast. I have a pack of Pub, this will be my first experience with Imperial yeast. I just used Verdant, ? Not sure I’m a fan,
 
Whitelabs also has their liquid Whitbread, which is WLP017. I haven't looked at Suregork' sequensing, but Wyeast and White Labs are probably equivalent. Although I seem to remember that Whibread was 3 different strains?

Methinks the Imperial Yeasts are all a cut above. Pub is certainly better that the Whitelab and Wyeast equivalents. That seems to hold up in my experience with other strains as well. Say it a different way, if Imperial has it, that will be the first yeast I try...
 
Whitelabs also has their liquid Whitbread, which is WLP017. I haven't looked at Suregork' sequensing, but Wyeast and White Labs are probably equivalent. Although I seem to remember that Whibread was 3 different strains?

Methinks the Imperial Yeasts are all a cut above. Pub is certainly better that the Whitelab and Wyeast equivalents. That seems to hold up in my experience with other strains as well. Say it a different way, if Imperial has it, that will be the first yeast I try...
I 2nd that. I have tried two of their yeasts, pub and harvest, and both have outcompeted all the rest in their respective area from my limited point of view.

Harvest for unhoppy lagers (at least no hop flavour) like helles and bock and pub for English ales. Harvest also works at room temperature btw.

I tried the whitelabs equivalent to pub and it was a dumper because of strrrrrong fusels which gave me the headache from hell after two beers only. Fermented too warm obviously, but pub can handle that so that's s difference between the two.

Steering a bit back, Imperial A09 Pub is the considered way to go, but I'm having trouble figuring the "ferment at room temp without temp control"


My OCD is having REAL issues with that.

The room temperature was just a matter of lack of possibilities when I first brewed it. Nowadays I would want it to be between 19 and 20c, ramping it up at the end.

But room temperature certainly works just fine.

Just make sure not to go too low, we want the yeast expression!

I just read that I pitched it at 25c, again, lack of proper cooling possibilities. Nowadays I would pitch at 20 to 22c.
 
How about Wyeast 1275 Thames Valley, anybody like that one? I haven’t used it for awhile but I made all kinds of beers with it years ago. From mild, bitter, and pale ales all the way up to barleywine. It has a 10% tolerance. And I had good results, won a few ribbons. I just looked, it is still available. They haven’t made it a limited strain or anything.
 
How about Wyeast 1275 Thames Valley, anybody like that one? I haven’t used it for awhile but I made all kinds of beers with it years ago. From mild, bitter, and pale ales all the way up to barleywine. It has a 10% tolerance. And I had good results, won a few ribbons. I just looked, it is still available. They haven’t made it a limited strain or anything.

Never tried it myself. If it has a low to medium attenuation and a strong British character then it should work. Obviously something different than A09, but still could be good, just in another way.
 
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How about Wyeast 1275 Thames Valley, anybody like that one? I haven’t used it for awhile but I made all kinds of beers with it years ago. From mild, bitter, and pale ales all the way up to barleywine. It has a 10% tolerance. And I had good results, won a few ribbons. I just looked, it is still available. They haven’t made it a limited strain or anything.

I never used Wyeast 1275 Thames Valley but have used WLP023 Burton Ale which is supposed to be the White Labs equivalent.
I brewed an English IPA with it a few times with all EKG that turned out good.
The second time I upped the temperature a bit as it wasn't very expressive at 18oC in my basement.
At 21oC it gave off some nice Englishy esters.

Edit - I see from the manufacturing sites the recommended temp for WLP023 is 20° - 23° C
Wyeast 1275 Thames Valley is 17° - 22° C
 
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So I kegged my batch on Monday, I force carb my beers, I know, not proper for this style. Mine is more of a golden color then you original post due to my grain bill, I didn't get the crisp crystal cause my lhbs did not have so I subbed it out with something else I had on hand. It still needs time to clear and mature but first taste is excellent (and the wife is happy with it). This is about 10 minutes after the pour and a sip from my wife and I.
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So I kegged my batch on Monday, I force carb my beers, I know, not proper for this style. Mine is more of a golden color then you original post due to my grain bill, I didn't get the crisp crystal cause my lhbs did not have so I subbed it out with something else I had on hand. It still needs time to clear and mature but first taste is excellent (and the wife is happy with it). This is about 10 minutes after the pour and a sip from my wife and I.
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Looks nice! I've also had versions that had a colour like yours, didn't impact the taste much. But be aware that this beer gets better with time. I just found a few hidden bottles from about three months ago and they are now really outstanding. Before it was already good, but now they are even better.

My latest one is in the fermenter right now, I used some dark wheat (midnight wheat) to adjust the colour, let's see if it's detectable in the taste!
 
Good to hear, I've read in this thread that they get better with time. I always enjoy seeing how beer changes with time and throughout the process. I'm happy with the result already and excited to see how it is after some conditioning.
 
With these ~1040 bitters, I've noted improvement up to about three months then a slow steady decline in hop character. Still good, but less balance. Minimal headspace and keeping them in the fridge increases stability greatly.
I agree. I also think that's roughly three months and then you probably have another month at it's best and then it goes slowly downhill. Based on my own experience, it also depends a bit on how much oxygen was involved on the hot side. Too much of it and it needs longer to mature (but not longer than 3 months).

One acception are heavily hopped bitter. I have an AK in the basement, that became really good after 4 or five months and is still improving after half a year. But that one had insane ibus for the given og, somehting above 50, if I remember corecctly.

Small headspace is a must!
 
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Looks nice! I've also had versions that had a colour like yours, didn't impact the taste much. But be aware that this beer gets better with time. I just found a few hidden bottles from about three months ago and they are now really outstanding. Before it was already good, but now they are even better.

My latest one is in the fermenter right now, I used some dark wheat (midnight wheat) to adjust the colour, let's see if it's detectable in the taste!
Speaking of color, what approximate SRM/EBC are you assigning to the Lyle's Golden Syrup. I've found a supplier and am anxious to give this recipe a 'go', but there's no data on color that I can find. I'm worried it could finish up too dark. BeerSmith shows an SRM of 5.6 when I plug in Invert Sugar (SRM 0.0) which is close to the upper limit for BJCP style. I had to sub Thomas Fawcett C-60 for the Crisp and added 0.25# acidulated, but otherwise the recipe is the same as your original, adjusted for my system and efficiencies.
 
Speaking of color, what approximate SRM/EBC are you assigning to the Lyle's Golden Syrup. I've found a supplier and am anxious to give this recipe a 'go', but there's no data on color that I can find. I'm worried it could finish up too dark. BeerSmith shows an SRM of 5.6 when I plug in Invert Sugar (SRM 0.0) which is close to the upper limit for BJCP style. I had to sub Thomas Fawcett C-60 for the Crisp and added 0.25# acidulated, but otherwise the recipe is the same as your original, adjusted for my system and efficiencies.
You can ignore Lyle's, it has a very pale colour, basically golden, almost no impact on the colour of the beer. You can also ignore BJCP, they are not the Bitish beer authority so what they say and what is being brewed in Britain is not necessarily connected.
 
Good, and agree on what seems like arbitrary pigeon-holing with style guidelines. Still, I DO enter some competitions and it helps to be somewhat close to what BJCP judges are looking for. I tossed in an arbitrary SRM number of 10.0*L for Lyles' and the beer color calculated at 6.1, with 6.0 being the guideline's maximum for British Golden Ale. I think you'd need a mass spectrometer to differentiate between 6.0 and 6.1 SRM, so in the larger scheme of things it's not a deal breaker.

I did find some Crisp Medium Crystal at Northern Brewer, but they listed the SRM at 77, which @ 10% of the grist bill increased my calculated color to 6.7 SRM over straight Thomas Fawcett 60L. Still not a deal breaker for me, though probably getting close to where a judge might comment on the color being a bit dark. On the same Northern Brewer website I found a Fawcett Medium English Crystal listed at 42*-48*L which would be closer to your 57*L Crisp. Would you say there's a discernible difference in taste between Crisp over Thomas Fawcett? Both seem to be traditional and reputable British maltsters.
 
Good, and agree on what seems like arbitrary pigeon-holing with style guidelines. Still, I DO enter some competitions and it helps to be somewhat close to what BJCP judges are looking for. I tossed in an arbitrary SRM number of 10.0*L for Lyles' and the beer color calculated at 6.1, with 6.0 being the guideline's maximum for British Golden Ale. I think you'd need a mass spectrometer to differentiate between 6.0 and 6.1 SRM, so in the larger scheme of things it's not a deal breaker.

I did find some Crisp Medium Crystal at Northern Brewer, but they listed the SRM at 77, which @ 10% of the grist bill increased my calculated color to 6.7 SRM over straight Thomas Fawcett 60L. Still not a deal breaker for me, though probably getting close to where a judge might comment on the color being a bit dark. On the same Northern Brewer website I found a Fawcett Medium English Crystal listed at 42*-48*L which would be closer to your 57*L Crisp. Would you say there's a discernible difference in taste between Crisp over Thomas Fawcett? Both seem to be traditional and reputable British maltsters.
Every crystal tastes different. All the maltsters have their own way of creating the malt and that all changes the taste of it. Doesn't mean that it doesn't have to work either way, it's just different. I brewed this with a lot of different crystals and it tastes more or sometimes less different every time.

Also, just fyi, this beer was never supposed to be a golden ale, I just couldn't find a more fitting description in the drop down menu. :D It's basically a pretty light coloured bitter.
 
Lyle's Golden Syrup 700g

As advised, Tate and Lyles Golden Syrup provides little extra color when added to even pale beers.

Another problem is there being no simple correlation between SRM and EBC. As Graham Wheeler has been mentioned more than once in this thread, I will post a piece he once wrote. It might not help and might not be of any value in this case, but it is a point I think is worth bearing in mind when thinking color or colour of beer.

The Series 52 glasses (that the Americans still use) are not good at dark beers or malts because of a deficiency of red in them, which is why we, in Britain, devised what are now known as the EBC colour glasses in 1950. Furthermore, prior to the EBC glasses, Whitbread, and other brewers, had the habit of adding a red glass to the S52 glasses to compensate for the lack of red. I have never been able to work out the relationship between the two glasses in the Whitbread analyses as published on Ron's blog. Another "furthermore" is that there is not the linear correlation between Lovibond (S52) and SRM that most people assume, bearing in mind that when Americans talk in Lovibond they are talking visual colour glasses (still used by most maltsters), and when they talk SRM they are talking photometric methods. Unfortunately, in Europe we make no such distinction.

Some time earlier he had written the following:-

The reason that the colour calculation in BeerEngine does not match other software is mainly because most software, particularly American software, is reliant upon a thing called the Morey equation, which is flawed. I have no knowledge of Brewmate, but I suspect that it also uses Morey, even though it is written by an Aussie. The Morey equation perpetuates a misconception that beer colour is not linear; that is, that it assumes that if you double the ingredients you do not get twice the colour. In fact, for all practical purposes, you do get twice the colour.

This misconception goes back to 1991/2 when the late Dr George Fix performed an "experiment" whereby he took a dark American beer and measured its absorbance (colour) as-is and at several dilutions. Fix ended up with a strange-shaped "curve" and from this he concluded that the Beer-Lambert Law, commonly known as Beer's Law, did not apply to beer and that beer colour was non-linear. Beer's Law is a law pertaining to spectrophotometric measurement and, confusingly, Beer is a person in this context. The idea behind George Fix's "experiment" was that home brewers could measure the approximate colour of their beer by diluting a dark commercial beer of known colour until it matched the home brewed beer, and then calculate its colour from the dilution required.

Other people tried to make colour prediction formulae using Fix's data, or at least incorporating Fix's non-linearity assumption, but these were somewhat unsatisfactory. They had obvious limitations and different formula covered different colour ranges. Then another worker, Dan Morey, came along and combined the various formulae into one universal formula. This became known as the Morey equation.

Unfortunately, George Fix did not know how to use a spectrophotometer properly; he was trying to use it outside of its reliable range. His laboratory technique was somewhat school-boyish and his interpretation was flawed. The flaws were noticed at the time and highlighted, but it became quite controversial because George Fix, and some of his followers, doggedly defended his results and methodology to the hilt; despite the fact that people far better qualified pointed out where he went wrong, and despite the fact that several people performed similar experiments using the same reference beer and found no deviation from Beer's Law.

So the Morey equation is wildly wrong because it is based on bad data that has had its errors compounded by other workers who tried to make the data fit the real world. It is unfortunate that these formulae still persist some twenty years later, but I think it persists because has been incorporated into so much software. If it was not for software perpetuating these ideas, they would have been dead, buried and forgotten years ago

For any who might have interest, Graham's Beer Engine can be downloaded from here.
 
Every crystal tastes different. All the maltsters have their own way of creating the malt and that all changes the taste of it. Doesn't mean that it doesn't have to work either way, it's just different. I brewed this with a lot of different crystals and it tastes more or sometimes less different every time.

Also, just fyi, this beer was never supposed to be a golden ale, I just couldn't find a more fitting description in the drop down menu. :D It's basically a pretty light coloured bitter.

From memory, which I must be honest and it isn't what it once was, Golden Ale as a style is probably a recent event, likely originating in America and quickly adopted in UK by breweries, for beers with individual merits, for marketing purposes, even when slight colour change was necessary.

My early memories of Golden Ale was of this.

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Golden colour it had, bottled in "nips", about a third of a pint, and strong, maybe 8%, it was generally bought to add to liven a draught pint when the beer was getting old and tired.
 

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