Ministry and beer

[bottlebomber]

While the second usage of θεοσ is qualitative, and the Greek is helpful, cultural context is just as important. While the two words come under different grammatical categories, they have the same referent, because John was Jewish, and believed in only one divine being. Cf. the שםע .

The two usages meant two separate things, which is why I brought those other examples in to clarify the difference. One refers to God Almighty, while the other refers to having godlike qualities. That is how they were used, culturally. Some bibles have rendered these both as God, but that is a mistranslation, usually done to indorse church doctrine. As far as the Jews believing in only one divine being, you are correct.

The Christians in the Greek scriptures also believed in only one divine being. The name of that being (יהוה in Hebrew) appears nearly 7000 times in the holy scriptures, though many bibles have removed commonly accepted English translations of this name. An older copy of KJV has the English translation of the tetragrammaton at Psalms 83:18, though in 1982 that was removed with the introduction of the New KJV.

This also highlights the importance of maintaining an accurate rendering of the original language. Though I wouldn't recommend ancient language discussions be made part of a Sunday congregational meeting unless heavy doses of caffeine are involved lol.

Sorry but this is a fascinating subject for me, and something I have devoted a lot of personal time to studying.

 

[Bierliebhaber]

Wow, this thread has taken off!

I couldn't agree with you more. Let's take for example a well known scripture - John 1:1.

Now without the Greek it would be easy to think that the two usages of the word "god" were the same. But one is god in the superlative form(God), while the other is a singular predicate noun, essentially meaning godlike, or divine. So yes, without the Greek translation it would be easy to make the mistake that the Word WAS the God whom he was with.

That makes it a lot easier to wrap your mind around scriptures like 2 Corinthians 4:4 which reads
In whom the god(Θεὸ&sigmaf of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God(Θεό&nu, should shine unto them.

So with this knowledge of the original language you can see that Satan is godlike in the same way that Christ is godlike - a powerful ruler.


Now how's that for

Here, I think a couple corrections would be helpful to magnify the point of the importance of the languages. You are correct that the anarthrous preverbal predicate nominative "god" is qualitative, but this in no way means godlike or simply a powerful ruler. The point is that the "Word" possesses the same essential nature as "GOD" the Father. This is evident from the proximity to the immediately preceding definite articular use of "God," as well as from the Septuagintal quote from Gen. 1:1 (In the beginning). John is making a significant point that addresses both Jewish theology and pre-gnostic hellenistic thought. The "Word" was present with GOD the Father in the indefinite period of "the beginning" before all else existed AND shares the same nature/quality as the Father, yet is distinct in person (e.g. the plural co-hortatives in Genesis 1). So it would be a grave mistake to take the qualitative PN here to indicate some sort of categorical equality between Jesus and Satan. On this point, the instance you mention in 2 Cor. 4:4 of Satan designated as "the god of this age" is not a qualitative PN, but an articular definite noun.

I might also clarify that the Tetragrammaton can not be translated, but attempts can be made to transliterate the Name. Most translations have opted (for various reasons) to signify the Tetragrammaton by all-caps LORD and on a few occasions GOD. Where Adonai is translated Lord and Elohim God/gods. I hope these notes are helpful...

I too love this thread and the off-topic discussion. It's great to find so many people of the same faith brewing good/great beer!

 

[GrantH]

The local Father, Father Tommy frequents our beer bar and the events thrown at the establishment. He is very well regarded by every one I have talked to or have mentioned his name around. If your god allowed the ingredients to be present on this Earth, and the intelligence in how to combine them...who is to argue that you are right or wrong in drinking and brewing beer? Also...who really cares if some dried up old people think your a bad person?

Do as you wish.

This is probably the main reason I don't follow religion; far too many worries about others.

 

[bottlebomber]

So it would be a grave mistake to take the qualitative PN here to indicate some sort of categorical equality between Jesus and Satan. On this point, the instance you mention in 2 Cor. 4:4 of Satan designated as "the god of this age" is not a qualitative PN, but an articular definite noun.

I except that refinement. I was mostly trying to highlight the distinction between the the•oś and the the•oś ho as some translations make no distinction between the two where one is required.

I might also clarify that the Tetragrammaton can not be translated, but attempts can be made to transliterate the Name. Most translations have opted (for various reasons) to signify the Tetragrammaton by all-caps LORD and on a few occasions GOD. Where Adonai is translated Lord and Elohim God/gods. I hope these notes are helpful...

And indeed those "reasons" are intriguing when they are researched. My issue is not with phonetic pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton but with the practice of removing it, or anything for that matter from the pages of the Holy Scriptures.

The importance of calling on God by his name is a consistent theme throughout. How did the model prayer start? Holy is thy name. He who calls upon the name of the Lord is the one that shall be saved. What I find interesting is that some would claim that there is no distinction between father and son, and yet obscure the name of the one while freely pronouncing the other.

The various pronunciations of the Christ's name are likely not accurate as well, and yet when we say the name "Jesus" are our minds and hearts not flooded? God and Lord are not at all names, but titles, giving no due distinction or reverence. We even give our dogs names... Would not our Creator also deserve one?

I too love this thread and the off-topic discussion. It's great to find so many people of the same faith brewing good/great beer!

Me too! however religious discussion is generally not tolerated on HBT and so I am afraid there will come a point where it will have to cease.

 

[stamandster]

I might also clarify that the Tetragrammaton can not be translated, but attempts can be made to transliterate the Name. Most translations have opted (for various reasons) to signify the Tetragrammaton by all-caps LORD and on a few occasions GOD. Where Adonai is translated Lord and Elohim God/gods. I hope these notes are helpful...

I'll take the clarification of the name of the Almighty God for 1000 Alex Your absolutely right, the Hebrew Tetragrammaton cannot be completely translated into English (or even modern day Hebrew for that matter). This is because vowels did not come into use in Hebrew until the second half of the first millennium CE.

There can only be a couple reasons why one would choose to remove (New KJV, Latin Vulgate, Catholic Douay for instance) the name of God (there almost 7000 times in original manuscripts) from the bible (even if just for putting the Tetragrammaton in place of it; not represent it with a title). Either the translators have purposely removed the name of God from the bible for greedy means, for instance they have done so by trying to fit the bible to their own theology, or because of superstition in using God's name (perhaps feeling it's too sacred to be spoken; although none of God's people ever felt that way in the bible) or because of "tradition" (of men) passed down from when the Jewish religious leaders started doing it in the first or second century CE.

His name severely outnumbers the titles applied to him; such as "Sovereign Lord" or "God". If we were to deny the transliteration of God's name then we'd also have to change the "English" names applied to Jeremiah, Isaiah and a slew of others. No doubt these are accepted as appropriate names? When my name is translated into Spanish it changes to Christobal, I don't see how this is any different.

Using God's name (not a title, but YHWH, Yehwah, Yehwih, Yehowah, Iabe, Iaoue, Jehovah) was a command by God to be used by Moses when he was to meet with Pharoah at Exo 9:13,16 "Then Jehovah said to Moses: "Get up early in the morning and take a position in front of Phar'aoh, and you must say to him, 'This is what Jehovah the God of the Hebrews has said"..."But, in fact, for this cause I have kept you in existence, for the sake of showing you my power and in order to have my name declared in all the earth". How could God's name be declared in all the earth with a title? Even the President uses his real name, then again so does Satan.

Psalms 113:3 says "From the rising of the sun until its setting Jehovah’s name is to be praised". How could God's name be praised if it's unknown? And how could Isaiah's words be fulfilled in Isa 64:2 where it states "as when a fire ignites the brushwood, and the fire makes the very water boil up, in order to make your name known to your adversaries, that on account of you the nations might be agitated!"?

Reasoning on what is found at James 4:8 it says "Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you indecisive ones". I doubt any one of us in our personal lives have any really close friends that we don't know their real names. Abraham was counted as being God's friend, 2 Chron 20:7 says "Did not you yourself, O God of ours, drive away the inhabitants of this land from before your people Israel and then give it to the seed of Abraham, your friend, to time indefinite?" Abraham also used God's personal name when talking with him, drawing close to him as a friend. We can only draw close to God, as Abraham (as many others did), by using God's personal name.

However much I enjoy this thread, methinks it'll be locked soon... I'm just waiting...

 

[Bierliebhaber]

Well, I would like to express my hearty appreciation to the mods and other members for allowing us to discuss the OP topic, as it is a very relevant issue for many of us on this board! (not to mention the huge off-topic detour)

 

[RedGuitar]

Well, now that all of that has been discussed, I'd like to update everybody on the events since my original post.

Met some of the folks at the church yesterday and they seemed like they would have no problem with my brewing. I talked to my district superintendant and his response was, "That's pretty cool. There's a big homebrew competition in Durham every year if you're interested. I would just be discrete at the church. If one of the old ladies from the church calls me to tell on you, I'll ask how she knew and if she's tried anything you've made."

But the even better part of this is that the parsonage has a full basement with a room already built in that SWMBO agrees should be my brew cave. Woo hoo, God loves me!

 

[TarVolon]

Awesome! 'grats, man!

Maybe I should consider this annual competition in Durham once I figure out what I'm doing.

 

[CGish]

I talked to my district superintendant and his response was, "That's pretty cool. There's a big homebrew competition in Durham every year if you're interested. I would just be discrete at the church. If one of the old ladies from the church calls me to tell on you, I'll ask how she knew and if she's tried anything you've made."

Sounds like a great supervisor - I would be finding out what he likes and brewing him a batch!

Woo hoo, God loves me!

 

[Dan]

Well, now that all of that has been discussed, I'd like to update everybody on the events since my original post.

But the even better part of this is that the parsonage has a full basement with a room already built in that SWMBO agrees should be my brew cave. Woo hoo, God loves me!

Very happy for the outcome. God loves us all! - As I'm sure you are well aware of.

Some of us understand that; other's don't. Occasionally we take our blessings for granted and failed expectations as loss.

I wish you were preaching here where I live. Would sure be nice to have a pastor and home brewing friend like you Redguitar.

Dan

 

[cfrazier77]

I am glad to hear that you did the right thing and asked. I am also glad that your supervisor was ok with it. You are right, God is good!

One of the rooms in my parsonage basement became my brew room as well. Congrats!

 

[stamandster]

That's cool that you'll still be able to brew!

I have to ask (since I don't know), since congregational meetings are normally only on Sunday, and I'm assuming you write a new sermon/talk every week. What do you do with your time during the days of the week, other than the eight to ten hours it takes to write and re-hearse a one hour sermon/talk?

 

[RedGuitar]

Well, for me I'll also be a full-time student, so during the school year there is class and homework and paper writing. Other than that there is the obvious stuff; visit the sick and shut in, plan for and lead Bible studies, plan for any special services that might be coming up (weddings, funerals, Easter, Christmas, etc), assist with any other ministries the church is involved in (youth group, missions work, outreach, etc.). Then there's the stuff folks never think about, like meetings (Administrative Council, Finance, Pastor-Parish Relations, Trustees, and on and on). I won't have a secretary, so any and all secretarial work will go through me. And I have no doubt I'm leaving stuff out. Any other ministers want to add stuff in here? They actually gave me a weekly break down of what I can expect to do as a student pastor, and it was a 60+ hour work week.

 

[tinman1]

Good to hear it's going well for you! As a former member of the Nazerene church, I know that your craft and hobby can quickly become an issue. My wife teaches a christian based weight program, and her theme always comes back around to the fact of moderation. God put the grains here for us, and if He gave us the grains, then they are good. But just like drinking too much, over consumption of food is probably a far more worse crisis in todays church than drinking. Our hobby is a CRAFT. It's what separates us from swilling BMC's in excess. Just like fine wines. But unfortunately, there are still many in the church still blinded by the past. God knows your heart... THATS the only thing that matters... Brew on, brother...

 

[Homercidal]

Good luck in your profession! My BIL is a pastor and I've known a few over the years. There is usually a LOT less free time than most people would think. Lots of problems to help people deal with and lots of heartache to help people get over.

Tough job, but it can be very rewarding.

 

[stamandster]

Well, for me I'll also be a full-time student, so during the school year there is class and homework and paper writing. Other than that there is the obvious stuff; visit the sick and shut in, plan for and lead Bible studies, plan for any special services that might be coming up (weddings, funerals, Easter, Christmas, etc), assist with any other ministries the church is involved in (youth group, missions work, outreach, etc.). Then there's the stuff folks never think about, like meetings (Administrative Council, Finance, Pastor-Parish Relations, Trustees, and on and on). I won't have a secretary, so any and all secretarial work will go through me. And I have no doubt I'm leaving stuff out. Any other ministers want to add stuff in here? They actually gave me a weekly break down of what I can expect to do as a student pastor, and it was a 60+ hour work week.

Thanks for the information I'm not familiar with this way of handling the congregation myself, just one or two men doing all assignments, no wonder it's a full time job.

For us we have a body of spiritually mature, qualified Christian Ministers (men) who handle all of this in their free time as volunteers (no monetary compensation; after work, weekends, etc.). For a congregation of around 90-120 we usually have between 10-20 total with certain oversight responsibilities to care the the flock, talk schedules, the grounds, etc. Each individual is assigned a responsibility, or a group of individuals assigned to a responsibility as a committee. There's not one man who makes the final say but it must be a body decision, done so through prayer and the help of holy spirit. They also can assign tasks to other mature Christians within the congregation to fulfill, for instance grounds cleanup.

Though, the whole of the congregation has the responsibility to teach newly interested ones (or even those that may need help within the congregation) through a bible study training program, thus balancing the load for all teachers/ministers of God's word. Each of them also has the responsibility for personal weekly bible research and meditation, so they can not only draw close to God but also to fulfill Jesus command at Matt 28:19,20 "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And, look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things".

And Romans 10:10,13-15 "For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation" ... "For "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved." However, how will they call on him in whom they have not put faith? How, in turn, will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent forth? Just as it is written: "How comely are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!"" (Paul was quoting Joel 2:32 and Isa 52:7)

We all have the opportunity too to speak from the platform (though woman do not "teach" from the platform though; 1 Tim 2:12) on different topics for discussion, these are assigned weeks in advance so that there's ample time for research and rehearsal and these talks are for five "services" a week (many different talks each week are given).

No doubt this scripture rings true at 1 Tim 3:1 "This is a trustworthy saying: "If someone aspires to be an elder, he desires an honorable position.""

 

[tennesseean_87]

You bet! It's such a small school, I might know him.

You at Westy? I've got a buddy there.

Also, woo for Tennesseans!

 

[TarVolon]

You bet! It's such a small school, I might know him.

Nice. I actually visited there but ended up pursuing philosophy instead. My buddy's name is Nathanael, and I think he's finishing up his MAR this year and looking at PhD programs in historical theology

 

[tennesseean_87]

Doesn't ring a bell, but I'd probably recognize the face.

More :

 

[cardinalsfan]

I've read through this whole post as it is really relevant to me and my situation. My dad was raised Catholic and had no issues with drinking. Not only was he Catholic, he was raised in New Orleans! Anyways, he met my mom and decided he had a problem with alcohol. He probably did, I don't know. My mother was raised in the Church of Christ. For those unfamiliar with it, we're like conservative baptists without music (that's a very broad synopsis). As far as drinking goes, it's a big no-no. Through a series of actions, my dad became a Church of Christ preacher. Since then, he has had a serious aversion to alcohol. Partly because of his alcoholism and partly because of the beliefs of our Church.

I was raised as Church of Christ and was raised that alcohol is wrong, in any and all forms. Getting drunk was bad but so was drinking in the first place. I got caught drinking a few times and got in a bunch of trouble with him. Now I'm a homebrewer. My dad doesn't know. He knows I drink but it's not something we've ever talked about. In fact, he has completely avoided the subject when it has come up - to such a degree that I know he is avoiding it on purpose. I think it's the whole "ignorance is bliss" factor.

I say all this to say thanks. Lots of good resources here in these posts. I don't think I'll ever bring up the issue with him but if he ever wants to talk about it, I'll have all the info I need.

One thing to say - while I do think the Bible and God have no issue with drinking (it's getting drunk that is the problem) I also see where it says not to cause your brother to stumble. I could completely see where my dad would be upset to know I drink. But I keep it from him and don't drink in front of him, don't post about it on Facebook, and generally don't talk about it around him. I can't see that I'm causing him to stumble.

 

[TyTanium]

...I also see where it says not to cause your brother to stumble...

There's a difference between creating some dissonance and causing someone to have a crisis of faith. Many biblical scholars hold that the correct contextual interpretation of this verse is the latter - causing your brother to stumble means causing a crisis of faith. People often take this verse to mean the former - we better not offend or upset anyone.

So I say you're good, and your judgment seems prudent.

 

[Homercidal]

Interesting story. I can see the aversion your father would have based on his own experience. I don't feel that everybody is the same in every situation though.

What seems to be apparent is that both of you know you drink and your difference in opinion over it creates an undercurrent that I'm sure you both experience, even if it's partially subconscious .

While I don't know if I would bring it up with him if I were in your shoes, I wouldn't hide the fact from him. It's better to talk about these things (if both people are willing and able to do so in an adult and constructive manner, that is.)

I think it's more basic than not drinking or talking about brewing around him. You must understand that he is very likely at least a little concerned about your own potential problem with drinking after what he went through himself.

 

[cardinalsfan]

There's a difference between creating some dissonance and causing someone to have a crisis of faith. Many biblical scholars hold that the correct contextual interpretation of this verse is the latter - causing your brother to stumble means causing a crisis of faith. People often take this verse to mean the former - we better not offend or upset anyone.

So I say you're good, and your judgment seems prudent.

thanks, i tend to agree with the assessment of that verse as well.

Interesting story. I can see the aversion your father would have based on his own experience. I don't feel that everybody is the same in every situation though.

What seems to be apparent is that both of you know you drink and your difference in opinion over it creates an undercurrent that I'm sure you both experience, even if it's partially subconscious .

While I don't know if I would bring it up with him if I were in your shoes, I wouldn't hide the fact from him. It's better to talk about these things (if both people are willing and able to do so in an adult and constructive manner, that is.)

I think it's more basic than not drinking or talking about brewing around him. You must understand that he is very likely at least a little concerned about your own potential problem with drinking after what he went through himself.

I completely understand his stance on the issue. I just don't like the stigma he attached to beer and drinking. An old friend of his checked into a brewpub on facebook. A brewpub that serves food. My dad commented on it and was appalled that his friend went to a place like that. Not to say my dad doesn't eat where alcohol is served, but I don't think he would ever go to a brewpub or anything like that.

We both know whats going on and there certainly is a subcurrent. I don't plan to bring it up but if he does, I'm not going to lie and I won't hide it. I'm also not going to shove it in his face that I brew/drink by posting about it, posting pics, etc.

I also understand that he of all people knows where drinking can lead and that he doesn't want it to happen to me. He understands what he went through and doesn't want me to become an alcoholic either.

In the end, I would like to address it with him and 'come clean'. Beer and brewing are things I really enjoy and even though we could never share that passion, I don't like having to hide it the way I do.

 

[snccoulter]

I have family that is Church of Christ to include my wife, I was raised Baptist. She wanted to get me back into church so she had me go with her. After a few months I told her I was done. I did not like the church or their message of we are right you are wrong. A few weeks later I went on a trip when I got back from a trip she own her own went to a local Baptist church. Long story short We go to the Baptist church now. The message is good and the congregation is accepting and not judgmental I can talk about my hobbies and not have someone look down on me, there are a few individuals that are even interested and want to learn more. The only ting my wife says she has to get use to is having a woman on the pulpit every now and then. Otherwise she really likes the church.

 

[thegerm]

I grew up sorta-methodist in texas. I also worked for a baptist megachurch for 2 years as a programmer(which ruined me for religion). Having just read the original post and not the entire thread... I can just imagine that 75% of your methodist congregation wouldn't care, 25% may care somewhat, and one person one day will decide they don't like you and use the fact that you are a brewer against you. For most people that's no problem, for a pastor... ugh. I can just imagine some bitter old person who decides to start writing letters to your boss(bishop?) accusing you of being a raging alcoholic and bad example to the congregation yadda yadda because they heard you homebrew, which to his/her mind is synonymous with bootlegging etc etc...

so i think i'd cover my bases and tell the boss about it up front.

 

[cardinalsfan]

I have family that is Church of Christ to include my wife, I was raised Baptist. She wanted to get me back into church so she had me go with her. After a few months I told her I was done. I did not like the church or their message of we are right you are wrong. A few weeks later I went on a trip when I got back from a trip she own her own went to a local Baptist church. Long story short We go to the Baptist church now. The message is good and the congregation is accepting and not judgmental I can talk about my hobbies and not have someone look down on me, there are a few individuals that are even interested and want to learn more. The only ting my wife says she has to get use to is having a woman on the pulpit every now and then. Otherwise she really likes the church.

yeah, I don't want to get started on a theological seminar here but your point is pretty correct for Church of Christ. They really seem to have the attitude that only their way is correct. The bible is up for interpretation and while I think they are right on some things, they are wrong on others and not being accepting of others and their beliefs kinda defeats the purpose in my opinion. I don't blame you for not liking it. I'm in the same situation as you, just reverse. Wife was raised baptist, me church of christ and I'm the one that feels out of place at her church.

Your wife didn't have an issue with music at the baptist church? I don't condemn music like most COC people, it's just really awkward for me having grown up without it being a part of the worship.

 

[maddprofessor]

The bible study I'm in sometimes meets at a bar that has all craft beer and we occasionally host events there to collect supplies for the homeless shelter. I was pleasantly surprised that my church would let us host and advertise an event at a bar. My church is non-denominational and most people there are under 40 so it's a less conservative crowd than some churches. I know plenty of baptists that would think it that one should never drink beer, let alone encourage church members to go to a bar but theologically I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Some seem to think that if non-Christians find out they will think you're a bad person or something like that. On the "stumble" issue, I think it's important that people who believe it's wrong don't go against their conscience and have a beer just because you think it's ok, but I don't think most critics are in danger of "stumbling" but rather like stick to a list or rules someone told them. I don't try convince people that having a beer is not a sin, but if they ever wanted to have a conversation I'd be happy to tell them my beliefs on the issue.

As a leader of any type, I think someone will have an issue with almost anything you do, but as far as how much I would drink or talk about in public would depend on who I was around. If people in your church are likely to be offended/assume you're leading a heathen life style then I would keep it on the DL, only sharing that information (and maybe a beer) with people who you are close to. People at my church aren't going to assume I have nothing of value to say about God if they know I drink. I've even brought homebrew to our bible study meetings. But I do try to make sure I don't only talk about beer with people or on FB so I don't give the impression that my life is centered around good beer. Beer is wonderful but it's certainly not the most important thing in my life.

 

[bottlebomber]

Interesting to hear how some different congregations conduct their business. I don't know about everyone else, but where I go for worship if someone is falsely accusing/unrepentantly slandering their brother it is grounds for being disfellowshipped.

 

[Andrewtherooster]

As a former Christian who came from a strictly religious family, I can only say that my parents would likely be the type of people to take offense--and they're non-denominational. I don't think you should worry about them, as there's always going to be people that don't like you. Then again, I have to tell them that I just go a job at homebrew shop.

 

[spearko520]

Interesting to hear how some different congregations conduct their business. I don't know about everyone else, but where I go for worship if someone is falsely accusing/unrepentantly slandering their brother it is grounds for being disfellowshipped.

yeah - i thought i remembered something from ccd about leaving judgment to god. I didn't realize this life was a contest to seem like a good person- i thought it was a chance to be a good person.