Ministry and beer

[wailingguitar]

... i think the posts that make the most sense are the ones that advise you to proceed with caution. when in rome...

I agree that proceeding with caution is wise. I didn't address that one way or the other in my previous post, just pointed out situations I was familiar with regarding clergy and beer, yadda, yadda... Definitely need to feel out the congregation on prevailing attitudes... I wouldn't have an introductory slide-show with pics of my multi-tier keggle system and keezer! That being said, there will undoubtedly be people who are nervous about letting the new pastor know that THEY enjoy a beer or what have you... The trick is finding the right balance that will foster positive communication without freaking people out one way or the other.

 

[RedGuitar]

And this is why I love this forum.

Also, I had no idea there were so many ministers on here. Very awesome.

Caution will be the best idea, of course. I have no feelings of guilt over brewing or drinking, and of course I have to be disciplined about what I drink, where I drink and how much. Really, my concern is the little old ladies who think beer is proof that Satan hates us and wants to destroy us. My grandma is like that. My parents are teetotalers as well. As for me, I've shared beers with pastors before, and I've given away homebrew to pastors and other ministers. I just 1) don't want to have to have the teetotalers hate me from the get-go and 2) don't want to make others stumble. Obviously, if it becomes a problem for my parish, the ministry is more important than the brew.

I meet some folks at the church and the current pastor this upcoming Sunday. Should have a better idea of what to expect after that.

And for those in the area, the church is about 30 minutes north of Durham, so come join us and raise a glass to the Lord. Maybe that can be my new brewing slogan...

 

[sweetcell]

"What Would Jesus Brew?"

"Brew Unto Others"

awesome quotes. sig'ed.

And even if you were breaking the law brewing and drinking beer isn't immoral.

it's not immoral to you but it is immoral to others. rural NC is the kind of area where your chances of finding someone who thinks this is pretty high. i grew up catholic and in our community there was no alcohol stigma so it was a shock when i was introduced to this reality in a dry county. not only was alcohol not allowed, people didn't want it. "it's the devil!", as a certain waterboy's mom might say. the concept was foreign to me but apparently for some people any association with alcohol is a sign of moral weakness.

where is Revvy in all this?!? i'd expect him to have a nugget (!) to share on this topic.

 

[landshark]

Raised and still am southern Baptist. Guess I'm not a good one anymore. I tried to keep my brewing on the low at my church until I burned my foot real bad brewing and everyone asked what I was doing to burn it. Cat's out of the bag now. Invited several church families over for St. Patrick's day and I had a beer in my hand most of the time.

However, as my preacher knows I drink now, whenever he can throw something in about being an alcoholic in there he does. I get tired of listening to it, but my wife likes the church and most of the member's aren't bad. But yeah, most people in the church think it's the most evil thing in the world.

Leviticus 10:9 "You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the Tent of Meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come.

Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise.

Proverbs 23:20
Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat,

Isaiah 5:22
Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks,

Isaiah 28:7 And these also stagger from wine and reel from beer: Priests and prophets stagger from beer and are befuddled with wine; they reel from beer, they stagger when seeing visions, they stumble when rendering decisions.

Romans 14:21 It is good to not eat meat, drink wine, nor do anything by which your brother stumbles, is offended, or is made weak.

Ephesians 5:18 Don't be drunken with wine, in which is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit

On the other hand, Jesus was considered a drunkard in his time.

Luke 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

And Paul told Timothy to Drink Wine:
1 Timothy 5:23 Be no longer a drinker of water only, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities.

AND Finally, one of my favorite versus.
Matthew 26:29 I tell you that I will never again take the produce of the vine till that day when I shall drink the new wine with you in my Father's Kingdom."

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I'm in seminary and a candidate for ordination with the Methodist church. I just received word that I'm receiving an appointment as pastor at a small rural church in NC this upcoming summer. While I have no theological/moral complications with brewing, drinking and being a pastor, I'm wondering what the church I'll be pastoring might think.

Knowing that this is a forum for homebrewers, I'm not expecting anybody on here to have any objections to a minister who brews and drinks. My concern is what would all of your grandmas say about it.

And... discuss.

"Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the Christian faith. Methodist do not recognize each other in the liquor store."

This thread is soooooo not what I was thinking. I was going to say that, IIRC, beer was not the drug of choice for Ministry. "Land of rape and honey" anyone, anyone?

Anyway, there are several pastors on teh boards here.

 

[Tinga]

as a lutheran pastor's son I will say that your problem is not "should I tell them?" it's more "what happens when they find out?". They will find out.

 

[sweetcell]

This thread is soooooo not what I was thinking. I was going to say that, IIRC, beer was not the drug of choice for Ministry. "Land of rape and honey" anyone, anyone?

i saw Ministry in 1992 at Lollapalooza back in the day when it was a traveling festival. i definitely drank beer that day, although it was likely BMC-type stuff. i'm pretty confident in saying that Ministry and beer go well together, despite it not being the band's first choice of intoxicant.

, i suppose...

 

[Schemy]

If you have to ask if you should reveal to them that you brew, then you probably shouldn't be brewing. An lie of ommition is still a lie. Will you continue to brew before you reveal this to the parish? Will you stop brewing until you know if they are cool with it? In the end it is whatever you are comfortable with, but I have to ask, if you can't be honest with your parish from the start, can you be honest with them when they need you most?

For the record, I say just be honest from the get go and keep brewing if it means that much to you. Good luck.

 

[SevenFields]

My son goes to a private Christian school and one of the teachers does not hide the fact that he is a brewer and loves good beer. He even states in on his profile for the school website. I have not heard anyone complain.

 

[bleme]

It is BMC that has perverted beer, promoting drunkenness and immoral behavior. By homebrewing, you are actually reclaiming the goodness that God intended beer to be!

OK, I confess to watching too many Greg Koch interviews.....

 

[stamandster]

It's a fact that some are sensitive and will be stumbled by any sort of alcohol consumption (either their own interpretations or because of their own previous dealings with it). But it's obviously not a sin to drink alcohol; only drunkenness is recorded as a sin in the bible. Only problem is there's a stigma, and has been for a long time, with alcohol.

You can't help how people feel towards a subject. You can only really help who you tell about it. For example let's say you were doing car racing on the weekends. Some may feel your not showing respect for your life for doing something that is dangerous in which you could be killed. Is it wrong? No. Is it your moral obligation to tell others? No. Could some be stumbled by it? Yes.

The bible does say that we are to stumble no one for we could be found blood guilty. If you were getting drunk that's completely wrong and a true cause for stumbling. But drinking in moderation isn't a real cause. It's an excuse for others to complain. Everyone is accountable to God for their own actions, not what others "make" them do.

I don't see how it's a bad thing not to tell people that you brew and enjoy beer. Your not lying to them, you don't need to tell them everything about your life. Your not killing people in your spare time. But if you feel guilty for brewing and drinking beer and can't get over it then stop.

 

[RedGuitar]

I think that it is largely a cultural thing. When I was serving as a missionary in Bolivia, I had to sign a contract stating that I would not drink while on the mission field (I confess I broke it the night before I left when I sampled 2 local beers). The pastor of the church I attended was British, and he did not understand why American Christians were so strict about drinking (and cussing, for that matter). Even on here, I hear some folks saying things like, "Well, since you're in the south, a pastor can't drink there..."

My wife is from California, and comes from a family that is very health conscious. The pastor that I'm working with now is very obese, and this really bothers my wife. To her, a part of being a Christian is taking care of your body because it's a gift from God, and also sharing what you have, such as food. For a pastor to have become so large, he is obviously partaking greatly at the table and is not taking care of his body. This is a distraction my wife must deal with, but she recognizes it as her own problem (kind of) and that he is not trying to make her stumble.

The bottom line is, if my actions will cause my parishioners to stumble in some way, I will stop those actions, whatever they are. But at the same time, it is my duty as their pastor to teach them and to help them get beyond whatever is causing them troubles, whether it is my actions, their actions, or whatever.

 

[cfrazier77]

Here is what I did last fall. I was being interviewed by a church for my first pastor position after finishing seminary. When speaking on hobbies I told them that I enjoyed brewing and asked if that would be a problem if I kept it discrete. I also said that I viewed one of the roles of pastors is to reform things that God gave us that are good that we have turned into sin. God gave us alcohol as a good thing, like sex. When we use it outside of His intended purposes, getting drunk or sex outside of marriage, then we make it a sin, not the thing itself. Many churches have implied for a long time that there are two kinds of people in regards to alcohol, drunkards and those who do not drink. What about a third option, those who enjoy a good gift without being drunk?

After saying this to the interview committee, they agreed and thought that it was a good idea. I could show by my life a proper use and enjoyment of alcohol.

I would not try to hide it. We don't need to air everything in our lives when we are a pastor, but we do need to address potential hot button issues that we can predict. Also, if you set the right attitude you are more likely to get a "yes" as opposed to your church leaders reacting to someone who found out and got angry. When people at my church find out I tell them that I was given permission to do it and that takes care of it. It has spurred many good conversations. Also, I really needed permission because I am brewing at the church owned parsonage on the same block.

 

[Jayhem]

Simple. There are dozes of verses in the Bible referencing wine and drinking as perfectly acceptable for pastors, elders, leaders, etc. Jesus himself drank wine. The only commandments against drinking are in regard to drinking in excess and becoming stupid drunk for obvious reasons. The only reason beer wasn't mentioned specifically in the Bible is because it was likely much less prized then wine back then. Fermentation was the only way to store liquid in the hot summer months without refrigeration and the only other drink available was water.

 

[Nugent]

Catholicism has nothing against brewing...or drinking. I was born and raised in a pretty strict Catholic family -- went to mass every Sunday, didn't eat meat on Fridays, etc. My Grandma drank plenty of beer as did the rest of my family. I was at Mass a couple months ago and the new priest introduced himself by stating that he was a home brewer (he even mentioned that he was anxiously awaiting his St. Paul Porter to finish fermenting).

My Grandma (if she were alive today, bless her soul) would be proud of her grand-daughter the brewer and probably bring some of my home brew to church with her to share.

My cousin, who is a Jesuit in Australia, always has a fridge full of Guinness. He and I went on a few, rather tempered, pub crawls while there.

 

[stamandster]

I think there's a big difference between drinking after a congregational meeting and before. Imagine having a conversation with anyone at the place where you meet and smelling alcohol. Doesn't give a good image, nor does it help a person be of complete and focused mind for teaching (or just conversing with others) or accepting being taught. Spirituality is to be the focus, not which stout you had for dinner/lunch (let's hope not for breakfast ).

Sometimes, people are just sensitive to certain topics. Sometimes people just get upset because you didn't say hi to them in the way they wanted you to. What would you do if people were offended that you worked as a Fire Fighter or other type of public servant (not a cop where you might have to shoot to kill; or even a politician as that would also be directly condemned). They were offended because of they perceived, with their own conscience, that to be completely separate from "church and state" that you don't work for the state/federal governments directly.

Would you stop working as a Fire Fighter (i mean it's dangerous too right!)? Or would you deal with these people on a one on one basis, treating them as adults not children who aren't yet fully accountable for their own thoughts and actions?

The other thing is that the bible doesn't say that just Pastors/Priests/Ministers/Elders/Deacons/etc. are ones that shouldn't stumbling. It doesn't designate a "class", it was directed to the whole congregation in Corinth (1 Cor 10:32). We all have the responsibility not to stumble one another.

... just some thoughts I guess (I won't get into the weight thing here though ) ...

 

[Teromous]

Despite what we say on the forums, this is an issue between you, your church, and your community. Obviously we're going to say it's ok, but what will you do if your church says it isn't? Will you try to reason with them and possibly lose your sheep, view it as a tribulation and give up brewing, do it in secret, or give up the position? Will they even care?

 

[knotquiteawake]

I learned to brew at a Church men's ministry meeting.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Wow, in Texas! Both my parents are form that area, and I grew up in 'all drinking is from Satan' churches.

Edit: or was this elsewhere?

 

[knotquiteawake]

My Father in law grew up in that kind of Baptist church. Now me and him drink beers on the porch together.

 

[GrantH]

Just remind them that Jesus turned water into wine.

 

[wailingguitar]

Here is an interesting quote from Martin Luther. I had never seen it before, but this discussion has me doing some research...

“Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to.”

 

[TarVolon]

Simple. There are dozes of verses in the Bible referencing wine and drinking as perfectly acceptable for pastors, elders, leaders, etc. Jesus himself drank wine. The only commandments against drinking are in regard to drinking in excess and becoming stupid drunk for obvious reasons. The only reason beer wasn't mentioned specifically in the Bible is because it was likely much less prized then wine back then. Fermentation was the only way to store liquid in the hot summer months without refrigeration and the only other drink available was water.

On the subject of verses mentioning alcohol, I've always liked the interpretation of Ecclesiastes 11 that reads it as a poetic enjoinder to brew and share.

Cast your bread upon the waters,
for you will find it after many days.
2 Give a portion to seven, or even to eight,
for you know not what disaster may happen on earth.

 

[CidCitrus]

I grew up Methodist in a dry town (our church owns the only liquor license in order to prevent the sale of alcohol) and was always told that alcohol was sinful. I believed it for a while, too. But my real story is when my band played at Eastern University in PA. There is a strict no alcohol policy there and we thought we were abiding by it, but our drummer (who was studying there at the time) forgot that he had left a few cans of Yuengling from a previous show in the cord bag. We were hauling our equipment back to the van when one of the people putting on the show saw the beers. Our drummer almost got expelled and we were told we could never play there again, and we weren't even drinking. Sometimes people are just really convicted that alcohol is a sin regardless of the circumstances.

 

[DoubleAught]

Here is an interesting quote from Martin Luther. I had never seen it before, but this discussion has me doing some research...

“Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to.”

I like that!

 

[matt99004]

For a refreshing view of ministry in the 21st century, go to www.lutherstable.org. Had a few there a couple of weeks back. Tastiest ministry in town.

 

[Mongrel]

Isn't it your job to tell these people what to think?

And, like a few others, I was hoping this was going to be about the band, or preferably the side project that sang about Beers, Steers, and...

 

[aerod1]

We have started a homebrew club within the Dallas diocese of the Episcopal church. We call it Saint Andrew's Suds Society" (SASS). We brew beer and have homebrew contests at our church where we compete with other churches for the "traveling growler". We also are starting to have "brew days". It's fun and the beer is great!

 

[ron,ar]

My experiance on this is that as a Methodist, Luthern, or Catholic and maybe Presberterian and a few others, you can slide by without a problem on the surface. If you were a Baptist....no way in the world could you convince a Baptist deacon or the congregation it is ok to create a "tool of the devil" such as homebrew.
The old joke is that a Luthern pastor once said that the only way he would take a Baptist fishing with him was if at least 2 Baptists went....if he took only one with him he drank up all the Lutherns beer.
You asked opinions, not for advice, but I'm going to give you some advice anyway.
Remember, I said you might slide by "on the surface" up there?
You surrendered into the highest calling a person can have.....your decisions all have to please someone much higher than all of us or yourself. When I surrendered unto the calling many years ago the first thing I did was sell the old bass boat as it was too much of a distraction to what my real work would be. Now that I am old, retired and hopefully wiser I have learned things can coexist together without too much uproar.
If I were you, I would concentrate on my higher calling and let the rest work itself out later as you go along.
There are lots of words in that Book that tell you what you can and what you can't do, but then stuck way back over there in 1st Thessalonians 5:21 and 22 are 2 sentences that will make you think about it in a whole different Light. If you can get it past these 2 verses, then it will probably be ok.....there have been lots of times I had to go back and hold things up against these 2 and sometimes I didn't like how it looked :^(
Verse 21- "Prove all things, holding fast to that which is Good"....... Only you can make the choice as to what is Good, not in your eyes, but in His.
And that verse 22?
Thats what I always called His catch-all verse..because besides all the commandments, directives and teachings there is this admonishment...."abstain from all APPEARANCE of evil". Notice it didn't say stay away from evil, and I'm not saying homebrewing of beer is evil, but it says more or less, if it just looks bad, leave it alone for appearances sake. You think about it, you pray about it, you will figure it out. Hope this helps and God Bless you young fella. (didn't intend to offend anyone here, if I did, I apopogize now)
Ron

 

[IanPC]

As far as I'm concerned no man can truly judge another. Church dogmas were created by man as a foundation for people to practice Christianity in a way that suits them. I.E..kneeling every 30 secs, or the sign of the cross. I'm a congregationalist...I drink, and home brew. Drink, be merry, don't embarrass the people around you, and show some self respect while having fun at the same time. I think God cares less if you drink, however, if you do something while intoxicated that you can't undue...then there will be the devil to pay. IE...drink to excess while being a diabetic.. Bad news. The ill effects could alter every single person in your life. 1-2 beers properly monitored probably would hurt you all that much. (depending on the alc%. etc etc