Mini Mash System for Extract Brewers

[iloman]

I don't think you are being dense at all. Lots of great questions, suggestions, and opinions being expressed. We are all learning from this.
I can't base this on fact but to me the grain bed aids in clarifying the wort. The husks in the mash act as a filter taking out small grain and husk particles. I don't think you get much filtering in a shallow grain bed. Also the wort has to be recirculated to clear it before draining into the brew pot. How do you pour the wort back over the shallow grain bed without disturbing it?

If there are folks out there who have tried PMs in a large cooler please chime in.

Taking a look at two Igloo coolers I found the following:

This 3 gallon cooler has internal dimensions listed as 9.5 x 10.5.

This 5 gallon cooler has internal dimensions listed as 9.3 x 16.6.

Between those two that should only leave the heat variance as a factor. What's considered acceptable? If I can find the 5 gallon one locally I'd be happy to pick it up this weekend, pour in some hot water, and get some readings to see if it would be workable or not.

 

[RichBrewer]

Taking a look at two Igloo coolers I found the following:

This 3 gallon cooler has internal dimensions listed as 9.5 x 10.5.

This 5 gallon cooler has internal dimensions listed as 9.3 x 16.6.

Between those two that should only leave the heat variance as a factor. What's considered acceptable? If I can find the 5 gallon one locally I'd be happy to pick it up this weekend, pour in some hot water, and get some readings to see if it would be workable or not.

The Rubbermaid cooler I used is 8 1/2 wide X 14 1/2 deep. When I mashed 5 pounds of grain it was about 2/3 full.

Are you trying to determine the heat loss variance between the 5 gallon and the 3 gallon? That would be a very interesting experiment. I would say that you don't want any more than a 2 or 3 degree drop at the most over 1 hour .
My hypothesis is that, given the same volume of water, the 5 gallon will loose more temperature due to the extra empty space above the water and the larger surface area of the cooler will absorb more heat. A Partial mash is going to use from 1 to 1 1 1/2 gallons of water so I would use a volume of water in that range. Don't forget that coolers absorb heat and that will have to be factored in. Maybe pre-heat the coolers before adding the heated water?

 

[the_bird]

OK, so in a fairly non-scientific way, I tested the 2-gallon Igloo cooler I already have. It's actually built a little sturdier that I recalled, so that's good.

I started by just dumping about 3/4 gallon of very hot water into the room temperature cooler and closing the lid with the probe thermometer inside (so I would not have to unscrew the lid for temp measurements. Starting temp was 187. After five minutes, this had dropped to 181, and after ten to 178. So, nine degrees in ten minutes. Took a final measurement at seventeen minutes (I was feeding my daughter and missed the fifteen minute mark), at which point the temp had dropped to 174. So, about nine degrees lost in ten minutes, probably about twelve in fifteen. The loss was twice as great (six degrees) in the first five minutes, only three degrees in the second five minutes.

I had another kettle of water going, so I immediately dumped the water from the first round of testing and replaced it with new. The new water was thankfully at a representative sparging temp, 172 degrees initially. After five minutes, it had only lost two degrees, and after ten was still holding at 169. The fifteen minute mark showed 166. I would consider the three degree drop over the first ten minutes to be an acceptable rate of heat loss. Can someone confirm for me the ideal temperatures for sparging, what the range is?

In any case, I'm still going to look for something a little bigger, maybe not a full five gallon cooler, but ideally maybe a three or four. My problem is that I have no conception of what the typical volume of grain in a PM recipe would be. Sounds like people have used a cooler as small as 2 gallons for a lot of recipes, although I still think it's probably a bit smaller than I will ultimately want. I'll see what's available and run heat-loss tests on anything I might end up buying.

 

[Desert_Sky]

well maybe you said in a previous post and i missed it. Whats the main reason you are going PM and not AG? Is it limited space?

 

[the_bird]

Is that question to me? If so, I have plenty of space (great owning a house!), but I don't want to make the committment as of yet. Still lots of exploring to do at the extract level, and I don't want to commit to propane burners and seven gallon brewpots and all of that. Someday, but not for a while.

In any case, I ran some heat-retention tests on my 2-gallon Igloo cooler last night:

It's actually built a little sturdier that I recalled, so that's good.

I started by just dumping about 3/4 gallon of very hot water into the room temperature cooler and closing the lid with the probe thermometer inside (so I would not have to unscrew the lid for temp measurements. Starting temp was 187. After five minutes, this had dropped to 181, and after ten to 178. So, nine degrees in ten minutes. Took a final measurement at seventeen minutes (I was feeding my daughter and missed the fifteen minute mark), at which point the temp had dropped to 174. So, about nine degrees lost in ten minutes, probably about twelve in fifteen. The loss was twice as great (six degrees) in the first five minutes, only three degrees in the second five minutes.

I had another kettle of water going, so I immediately dumped the water from the first round of testing and replaced it with new. The new water was thankfully at a representative sparging temp, 172 degrees initially. After five minutes, it had only lost two degrees, and after ten was still holding at 169. The fifteen minute mark showed 166. I would consider the three degree drop over the first ten minutes to be an acceptable rate of heat loss. Can someone confirm for me the ideal temperatures for sparging, what the range is?

In any case, I'm still going to look for something a little bigger, maybe not a full five gallon cooler, but ideally maybe a three or four. My problem is that I have no conception of what the typical volume of grain in a PM recipe would be. Sounds like people have used a cooler as small as 2 gallons for a lot of recipes, although I still think it's probably a bit smaller than I will ultimately want. I'll see what's available and run heat-loss tests on anything I might end up buying.

 

[Desert_Sky]

Is that question to me? If so, I have plenty of space (great owning a house!), but I don't want to make the committment as of yet. Still lots of exploring to do at the extract level,

Thats what I thought too. So I did one Partial, realized how easy it was and how much money I saved, then went straight into AG and havent looked back.

I love my 5 gallon setup, but Im already wishing I had picked up a 10 gallon. But good luck with whatever you do

 

[Boston]

Thats what I thought too. So I did one Partial, realized how easy it was and how much money I saved, then went straight into AG and havent looked back.

I love my 5 gallon setup, but Im already wishing I had picked up a 10 gallon. But good luck with whatever you do

I went the same route as Chimone. I did a PM last month using 7# of grain, then another using 9# of grain. I jumped over to the "dark side" on Sunday with an 11# AG batch of APA. After a few PM's the process of AG looks less intimidating. To answer one of your (Bird) questions: I read somewhere where you want your PM to contain at least 3# of grain, a good portion of that being 2-row. BTW, I am currently mashing/lautering in a 5-gallon Rubbermaid. It also worked great for my PM's.
Jeff
Edit: Thanks to Richbrewer for this excellent thread, it was the impetus for getting me into AG

 

[the_bird]

I don't know where you read that, beause I don't have a clue! Must be thinking of someone else.

Damn, I keep going back and forth. Maybe I will go with a 5 gallon, I don't know. Cripes.

Come here for answers, all I gets is more questions. I think that probably says something about homebrewing in general!

 

[Desert_Sky]

Damn, I keep going back and forth. Maybe I will go with a 5 gallon, I don't know. Cripes.

screw it, just go with this and you'll be fine

http://morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=6337

 

[the_bird]

That is so gorgeous...

Maybe I should ask BrewPastor whether he thinks starting up a microbrewery would be a good idea or not...

 

[the_bird]

Oh, I asked a question yesterday, I think it got deleted...

What about a sparge arm? Do I need one with batch sparging, or only with fly sparging? Do I have to buy one, or does someone have a thread or link to some ideas about how to make one?

SHOULD I be fly sparging? Any advantages other than just greater efficiency?

 

[Desert_Sky]

No, you only need a sparge arm for fly. Im debating on going to fly here in the future so I can say Ive done both then choose which one I like best. But batch works just fine for me now.

Im getting 75% batch sparging. Which is fine for now.

 

[iloman]

I too lost a message from yesterday. Basically it said I'm going to try and pick up the 5 gallon and 3 gallon coolers (I linked up earlier) this weekend if I can find them and get some readings on them to see if they are very different. I will plan putting in some hot water to prime them before putting in about 1.5 gallons of water to test with. I'm planning on dumping the water in at about 160 - 165 degrees and watching it from there....unless someone tells me I should do something different.

Jason

 

[Beer Snob]

I don't know where you read that, beause I don't have a clue! Must be thinking of someone else.

Damn, I keep going back and forth. Maybe I will go with a 5 gallon, I don't know. Cripes.

Come here for answers, all I gets is more questions. I think that probably says something about homebrewing in general!

Well then this reply probably wont help. Really the coolers are just one piece of a larger puzzle. With AG you need a larger brewpot or two pots so you can split the batch.... need a wort chiller. The most expensive thing is if you want to get a larger brewpot.... then there is if you get a large brewpot where are you doing to brew... kitchen stoves are challenging with full boils from what opinion says here. I decided to stay in the kitchen and split the batch...

 

[RichBrewer]

Is that question to me? If so, I have plenty of space (great owning a house!), but I don't want to make the committment as of yet. Still lots of exploring to do at the extract level, and I don't want to commit to propane burners and seven gallon brewpots and all of that. Someday, but not for a while.

My point exactly. The only extra equipment you will need is the cooler mash tun.

In any case, I ran some heat-retention tests on my 2-gallon Igloo cooler last night:

It's actually built a little sturdier that I recalled, so that's good.

I started by just dumping about 3/4 gallon of very hot water into the room temperature cooler and closing the lid with the probe thermometer inside (so I would not have to unscrew the lid for temp measurements. Starting temp was 187. After five minutes, this had dropped to 181, and after ten to 178. So, nine degrees in ten minutes. Took a final measurement at seventeen minutes (I was feeding my daughter and missed the fifteen minute mark), at which point the temp had dropped to 174. So, about nine degrees lost in ten minutes, probably about twelve in fifteen. The loss was twice as great (six degrees) in the first five minutes, only three degrees in the second five minutes.

I had another kettle of water going, so I immediately dumped the water from the first round of testing and replaced it with new. The new water was thankfully at a representative sparging temp, 172 degrees initially. After five minutes, it had only lost two degrees, and after ten was still holding at 169. The fifteen minute mark showed 166. I would consider the three degree drop over the first ten minutes to be an acceptable rate of heat loss. Can someone confirm for me the ideal temperatures for sparging, what the range is?

The heat loss doesn't sound too bad. For a typical PM brew you would be using more water, 1 to 1/2 gallons, for the mash. That along with the grains themselves would create more volume in the cooler causing the temp to be more stable. Combine this with a pre-heated tun and I think you would be fine.

In any case, I'm still going to look for something a little bigger, maybe not a full five gallon cooler, but ideally maybe a three or four. My problem is that I have no conception of what the typical volume of grain in a PM recipe would be. Sounds like people have used a cooler as small as 2 gallons for a lot of recipes, although I still think it's probably a bit smaller than I will ultimately want. I'll see what's available and run heat-loss tests on anything I might end up buying.

As I stated before, mine is a 3 gallon cooler and it is plenty big. I did 5 pounds of grain and there was room to spare. The 2 gallon will work but it will be a bit full I would guess.
I would say that typical PM batches would include between 4 and 6 pounds of grain so the water needed would be 1 to 1 1/2 gallons for the mash and 2 to 3 gallons of sparge water. If you use the 2 gallon cooler you would be looking at batch sparging 3 times.

 

[RichBrewer]

Oh, I asked a question yesterday, I think it got deleted...

What about a sparge arm? Do I need one with batch sparging, or only with fly sparging? Do I have to buy one, or does someone have a thread or link to some ideas about how to make one?

SHOULD I be fly sparging? Any advantages other than just greater efficiency?

No you won't need a sparg arm. You can batch sparge and do just fine. You may loose a little bit of efficiency but it should be insignificant.

 

[RichBrewer]

Well then this reply probably wont help. Really the coolers are just one piece of a larger puzzle. With AG you need a larger brewpot or two pots so you can split the batch.... need a wort chiller. The most expensive thing is if you want to get a larger brewpot.... then there is if you get a large brewpot where are you doing to brew... kitchen stoves are challenging with full boils from what opinion says here. I decided to stay in the kitchen and split the batch...

This is the very reason the mini mash/Lauter tun is a great idea. Very little expense to go from extract to pm brewing with a system that works well and it isn't hard to do.

 

[EdWort]

This is an awsome thread! I have learned so much. Great Stuff. Now I need to go shopping. SWMBO is going to love it!

 

[the_bird]

Well, took a trip down to Target after work, found a cooler that I really like. It's a 5 gallon round Rubbermaid "Victory," only $19. I have no idea how well it will hold temp, I'll run some tests later on.

Couple things I really like. The spigot screws off very easily, so I can just take it with me to Depot when I'm replacing it with a better value. It screws into a threaded rubber gasket, so leakage when I swap out ought to be miniml as long as I find something with the same threads (looks like a strandard size). Also, the bottom of the hole is only maybe a half, three-quarters of an inch off the bottom of the cooler, so setting up the stainless braid should be easy.

In any case, it's on the big side, but that's OK. If the heat loss isn't too bad, it'll be something I don't ever grow out of (in two years when I buy burners and big pots and all that for AG). I'm hoping I can get everything set up this weekend, maybe I can get some input on modifying Walker's IPA recipe (next on my list) to be partial mash. But, I have a deck to finish building first.

 

[Beer Snob]

Well here is mine taken apart(bunch more pictures in my gallery)... a few guys here have the same one. As far as the ease of going to Depot and getting the parts. I found it challenging. If you come up to dead ends and just want to make your life real easy you can get a Kewler Kit, which you see on mine. I know you are saying... what thats a piece of cake... easy... umm.... check it out. If (or keeping positive here ... when) you come up with a solution, post it here

Oh and when you are there pick up some Teflon Tape. The stuff works great with leaks

 

[EdWort]

Well here is mine taken apart(bunch more pictures in my gallery)... a few guys here have the same one. As far as the ease of going to Depot and getting the parts. I found it challenging. If you come up to dead ends and just want to make your life real easy you can get a Kewler Kit, which you see on mine. I know you are saying... what thats a piece of cake... easy... umm.... check it out. If (or keeping positive here ... when) you come up with a solution, post it here

Oh and when you are there pick up some Teflon Tape. The stuff works great with leaks

What size false bottom did you get and where did you get it? I found the same cooler at Target for $19

Thanks.

Ed

 

[Desert_Sky]

What size false bottom did you get and where did you get it? I found the same cooler at Target for $19

Thanks.

Ed

Im not sure which one beer snob got, but my setup is very similar to his. I picked this one up. I have no complaints about it whatsoever.

http://morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=15569

And I picked up the weldless bulkhead fitting from morebeer.com also. then went to ACE hardware and picked up a 1/2" ball valve and nipple fitting for the tubing. It was a little cheaper than ordering the whole valve and bulkhead assembly

 

[Beer Snob]

Im not sure which one beer snob got, but my setup is very similar to his. I picked this one up. I have no complaints about it whatsoever.

http://morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=15569

And I picked up the weldless bulkhead fitting from morebeer.com also. then went to ACE hardware and picked up a 1/2" ball valve and nipple fitting for the tubing. It was a little cheaper than ordering the whole valve and bulkhead assembly

Yup we got the same setup You should check your LHBS for the false bottom too, mine happened to have it. I inically got the Phils false bottom (still have it actually), but this one worked out better. Oh and your right, get anything you can at the hardware store... its cheeper.

 

[iloman]

Couldn't find the 3 gallon cooler at any of the stores I went to over the weekend. My local target also had the above blue 5 gallon model for $19. Ended up picking it up and will give it a try in near future.

Jason

 

[the_bird]

I *think* I found all the parts I need at Home Depot (just need to pick up a couple assorted nuts washers and things to hold everything together nice and tightskies). Hoping to get it all set up and do a test run tonight.

 

[EdWort]

Good luck! Please let us know how things go, also what parts you picked up at Home Depot. I'm looking at doing this myself and lucky for me, Target is right next to Home Depot.

Cheers!

 

[Desert_Sky]

Hoping to get it all set up and do a test run tonight.

So by this weekend you will be ready for a 3 step infusion all grain brew right?

 

[the_bird]

D'oh. Every time I think I havce everything I need, I'm still short something. It's ALMOST there, it leaks a bit but I hadn't used the teflon tape yet. The big thing is figuring out a way for the whole shebang to not want to rip out the side of the cooler, it's all being held in place by the rubber gasket. The only washers I could find that were the right size were zinc coated, which I'm afraid will leave a metallic taste in the wort (even if not, I'm sure I'll imagine it). I have about twice as many parts as I need, so I'll figure something out.

 

[the_bird]

Yeah, it works!

Haven't run a high-temp test, I've got some high-temp food grade tubing coming later this week (forgot to get some at the HBS, and Depot is lacking). I'm not happy with how it all fits together on the inside, I need to find a big-ass brass/ copper/ stainless steel washer. I'm using - I don't know what the hell they are - the things that fit around the pipe where a showehead comes out of the wall. Improvisation. But, it's all solid, feels very secure, holds water tightly, looks like it's going to work perfectly. I left the camera at work, but I'll take some snaps tomorrow and post.

And don't ask me what parts to get at Depot. I ended up with about three times what I needed. Started with a 3/8 ball value and built out from there with various couplings, nipples, o-rings, etc. Mix and match based on what they had available (and what the DIDN'T have, which often felt completely random).

Oh, and I'm using the stainless braid. Toughest part was finding a hose that was stainless, almost everything was nylon. It feels more delicate than I thought, we'll see how it works.

Now, what to brew... what to brew....

 

[RichBrewer]

I just poured my first beer from the mini mash test brew. All I have to say is wow! This beer is fantastic. It's only been in the keg for 2 days and I'm thinking that it may be the best beer I've ever made. Great malty, roasted profile. I wonder if that comes from the specialty grains or maybe from caramelization of the wort in the concentrated boil?
Any thoughts?

McDermott's Irish Ale

A ProMash Brewing Session - Recipe Details Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 5.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 8.13
Anticipated OG: 1.056 Plato: 13.81
Anticipated SRM: 16.0
Anticipated IBU: 35.7
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
49.2 4.00 lbs. American 2-row America 1.038 2
36.9 3.00 lbs. Generic DME - Light Generic 1.046 8
12.3 1.00 lbs. Crystal 55L Great Britain 1.034 55
1.5 0.13 lbs. Roasted Barley Great Britain 1.029 575

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 oz. Challenger Pellet 7.00 33.5 60 min.
0.25 oz. Fuggle Whole 4.00 2.2 30 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 1968 London Extra Special Bitter

 

[BootYtRappeR]

As far as the ease of going to Depot and getting the parts. I found it challenging. If you come up to dead ends and just want to make your life real easy you can get a Kewler Kit, which you see on mine. I know you are saying... what thats a piece of cake... easy... umm.... check it out. If (or keeping positive here ... when) you come up with a solution, post it here

Well it's not Home Depot, but I got all my parts for my spigot conversion at Lowes. Here are a few pics.

Here are the internal parts laid out, the solid screw thing on the far right is the middle man for both the internal and external parts.
The black washer looking piece is actually a bushing split in half.

Here are the external parts laid out, the solid screw thing on the far left is the middle man for both the internal and external parts.
The white gasket is the one that came with the cooler.

and finally the whole setup laid out

The two washers and bushing came from the fasteners section, all of the other parts came from plumbing

All thread sizes are 3/8"

BT

 

[the_bird]

That's almost identical to my setup, with a couple minor differences. The washer on the inside, the one that kind of holds it in place, all I could find in the right size was zinc-coated, and I just have a bad feeling that it will impart a metallic flavor. HD did not have any brass washers in the size I need, so I have something else cobbed up in the meantime. Otherwise, though, pretty much identical, so I won't bother posting pics of my setup.

 

[BootYtRappeR]

zinc-coated, and I just have a bad feeling that it will impart a metallic flavor.

I was wondering about that, I may get two SS washers an drill them out if I have to.

 

[the_bird]

I couldn't find SS in the size I needed. Went through everything in the fastener and plumbing departments. Another option might be to find a piece of hard plastic and make something, but, stupid as it is, I want this to look "finished," you know?

 

[RichBrewer]

I was hoping to find some 3 gallon coolers on sale. I thought they would be on clearance by now. If anyone finds a good sale let us know!

I'm convinced that the 3 gallon cooler is the perfect size for mini mash brewing but the cost on them is still in the $22.00 range. Even at that price you will recoup your investment by saving money by using less malt extract.

 

[Beer Snob]

Well they were not on sale, but my local Famer Jacks have them. Don't know if you have that chain food store over your way....

 

[RichBrewer]

Well they were not on sale, but my local Famer Jacks have them. Don't know if you have that chain food store over your way....

We don't have Farmer Jacks here in Colorado. Are yhey owned by a larger company?

 

[the_bird]

I thought I saw a smaller version (3 gallon, I think) of the Rubbermaid cooler I bought in Target. It was only a couple of bucks cheaper, but the 5 gallon was only $19. Not sure if they are on sale there yet, although I have noticed rectangular ones for I think 25% off at the grocery store, so it's that time of year.

 

[EdWort]

Target has those blue 5 Gal. Rubbermaid Victory coolers on sale right now for $17.99. I just picked one up this evening.

 

[RichBrewer]

It sounds pretty much like most people decided to use the 5 gallon coolers for their Mash/Lauter tun.
Is there anyone else out there who used a smaller cooler? I'm convinced that the 3 gallon cooler will work much better for partial mash brewing because of the deeper grain bed and better temp stability. You will also get clearer wort when you recirculate.
It appears to me that most of the response has been from folks who plan on going AG and don't want to buy a small cooler only to turn around a few brews later and buy a bigger one.

Everyone who does extract with specialty grain brewing take a good look at this. I've said it before but with a fairly small investment, especially when compared to the up grade to AG, you can do PM brewing. The investment will pay for itself with the money you save on each brew using less extract. For home brewers who don't have a lot of room, the 3 gallon tun is the only additional equipment you will need and it is simple to build.

Forgive me for harping on this but I think it will increase the enjoyment of home brewing for a lot of folks.