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bracconiere

Jolly Alcoholic - In Remembrance 2023
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so i got a deal on one of these, but brew day today using it, it sorta seemed like it was just guessing? anyone have one they can give me tips on how to use it right?

seems like it needs to be calibrated damn never before every use, how important is it to use distilled water? i was just using tap.

i think it'd be cool if it was reliable. but not sure i trust it entirely....
 
I used to have one. To me the biggest issue was making sure to draw a “representative” sample since it relies on such little liquid. If I didn’t adequately mix up the wort it would give different readings all the time especially where the pipette wouldn’t reach too far down into the wort.

The other issue would be when I was brewing outside in bright sunlight; that would affect the reading too (mainly it would give some error about it being too bright).

I always used our tap water to calibrate it but quite honestly it held its calibration pretty well.
 
i'm starting to think it has trouble with temp correction. maybe it's evaporation, or something.

just took a sample this morning from left over runoff, which was spot on to the hydro reading first try. if anything a brix reading of 3.3% was more accurate then me trying to read the meniscus on the hydro....


not sure if i'll learn to love it or hate it...if i hate it, someone else will get it for just shipping!
 
Don't give up on that unit just yet. Focus for the time being on what it's good for rather than what you see now as its deficiencies. You'll learn to like it. I'm coming to the conclusion that most home brewers spend way too much time obsessing on "numbers" that, in the major scheme of things, should be better thought of as "goals" rather than "absolutes."

I confess. Guilty as charged, Your Honor!

As long as our numbers are somewhere in the right Zip code for the style we're brewing, does it really matter whether the brix is 13.3, 13.5, or 13.8? That converts to 1.054, 1.055, 1.056. Or looked at a different way, it's the measure of a single unit of scale on a hydrometer. And that assumes that your hydrometers are in fact properly calibrated, the sample is correctly measured at the calibration temperature, the hydrometer is floating freely and vertically in the sample jar and not adhering to the cylinder with hydrostatic friction and free of any gasses that may be 'floating' it above the true specific gravity. Additionally, are you able to see through the muck to clearly discern the meniscus, and if so are your eyes sharp enough to see where the meniscus touches tangentially to the graduated scale?

Like just about everyone else, it gives me great satisfaction to hit my numbers. It reinforces that what I'm doing is both predictable and repeatable, at least from an empirical measure. But if I can't taste the difference between the recipe I brewed last fall with the same one I brewed last week then why should I get all wrapped around the axle? Last year's Helles might have been (calculated) to be 5.4% ABV but this year it's 5.7% (calculated, once again!). RDWHAHB. Should it concern me if I can't taste the difference? Is the ATF gonna' crash through my front door and drag me away in chains? Can my ego survive the shame that, from a "numbers" standpoint, I'm an abject failure as an amateur brewer? As long as I'm not in another time zone and I fit within the style guidelines (if I'm even trying to meet style guidelines), then all is well within my world.

After dropping my manual refractometer that I'd used for at least 6 years for both wine making and beer brewing, I got the Milwaukee brix digital as a replacement last fall. I pull a 3~4ml sample of wort or must with a 5ml pipette and put it into a shot glass, so probably about 1/10th of the volume I'd need for a hydrometer cylinder. Then I agitate it by stirring rapidly with the pipette to dissipate any dissolved gasses, allow any solids to settle out and cool to 20C +/- 5C. I haven't actually measured the volume of the sample that fills the well of the unit, but it's probably right around 1ml, which is about what I'd use to flood the platen of my former hand held refractometer. I also found, by taking parallel readings with narrow range hydrometers, that the Milwaukee digital was at least as accurate as the hydrometers, which is to say +/- 0.2 SG unit measure (i.e., 1.044 ~ 1.046), even as it gives a value reading down to 0.1 degree brix, so I can't definitely say which is more accurate.

That said, with hydrometers the errors can come primarily from calibration, temperature and visual interpretation. With refractometers the principal errors would be calibration, temperature outside the range of ATC compensation, and the calculated value of specific gravity conversion from refractive index (RI) to SG. Since in the Milwaukee unit calibration is so simple and easy to automatically accomplish, and ATC is read directly from the sample temperature in the well, those possible data errors mostly non-existent. The variables in formulae that convert RI values to SG are understood and "baked in" to the math, so any inaccuracies would be mostly linear, consistent over any sample, and extremely minor relative to the possible sum of errors when using a hydrometer. Even the grossest of cumulative hydrometer errors aren't something we, as home brewers, need to be too concerned with, unless we:

"measure with a micrometer, mark with a grease pencil, cut with an axe, fit with a sledge."

If we needed the precision accuracy to replicate identical beers with every batch, we'd all hire a staff of chemists with a lab full of sophisticated (and very expensive) equipment. But we're HOME brewers, not professionals, and we're not trying to produce the same product with barely measurable differences consistently day in and day out. We're hobbyists who get a kick out of creating a variety of beers that are not only as good as what BMC cranks out, but even BETTER. We chase the illusive butterfly of replicating something on par with the local microbrewery we frequent with our beer loving friends. Even with the most sophisticated equipment setups, we'll never reach that level of Nirvana, but it sure is fun to try.
 
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thanks @Brooothru , next brew day i'm going to put a glass in the freezer, and pull samples to swirl in it to cool them down....


(and, some samples would vary actually from 18 brix to 20...which was significant. but they were hot and islandlizard warned me that using hot samples might cause evaporation, and a flasly high reading, so maybe just some water evaporated for the second reading?)
 
I agree. Obviously we're not measuring specific gravity with a refractometer, but we do measure SG directly with a hydrometer. The refractive index allows for a mathematically derived value for SG when alcohol is present. The refractive index will always accurately yield a SG for unfermented wort as long as the sample isn't turbid, too saturated with dissolved gasses, or is too hot (or cold) for the ATC range for calibration.

Even though error potential is present in both methods for obtaining SG, I'm of the opinion that refractometer readings can be more accurate since the errors can be consistently anticipated and corrected more readily with a refractometer. With hydrometers the errors are more subjective due to interpretation by the observer. There're also easier to perform and use significantly lesser amounts of wort.
 
I don't even use a hydrometer or a refractometer, I have both, but I'm making beer for me, I go by what Beersmith says it should be, try to do everything right and drink what I get. No worries. RDWHAHB


i count calories, so the difference between 1.058, and 1.068. is important.....and it's not stressful, just need to know for the calculator to avg my intake....
 
Aren't
I agree. Obviously we're not measuring specific gravity with a refractometer, but we do measure SG directly with a hydrometer. The refractive index allows for a mathematically derived value for SG when alcohol is present. The refractive index will always accurately yield a SG for unfermented wort as long as the sample isn't turbid, too saturated with dissolved gasses, or is too hot (or cold) for the ATC range for calibration.

Even though error potential is present in both methods for obtaining SG, I'm of the opinion that refractometer readings can be more accurate since the errors can be consistently anticipated and corrected more readily with a refractometer. With hydrometers the errors are more subjective due to interpretation by the observer. There're also easier to perform and use significantly lesser amounts of wort.
we measuring turbidity?
 
Aren't

we measuring turbidity?
No, but turbidity will affect the ability of light to pass through the liquid being sampled. The refractive index of the sample (free of suspended solids) can be altered by the presence of those solids (turbidity, contamination) in the sample. Dissolved gasses in the sample can alter the composition of the sample, and also alter its refractive index.
 
No, but turbidity will affect the ability of light to pass through the liquid being sampled. The refractive index of the sample (free of suspended solids) can be altered by the presence of those solids (turbidity, contamination) in the sample. Dissolved gasses in the sample can alter the composition of the sample, and also alter its refractive index.
Right, so we might not want to measure turbidity but it certainly affects (interferes with) the measurement of refraction.
 
thanks @Brooothru , next brew day i'm going to put a glass in the freezer, and pull samples to swirl in it to cool them down....

I keep an ice bath on counter during brewday and chill my test samples in a stainless cocktail shaker in the ice batch. Mash temp or boiling to room temp in seconds. Have to be careful not to overchill but when I do I can always warm the shaker and sample back up by dipping it into my HLT.
 
Right, so we might not want to measure turbidity but it certainly affects (interferes with) the measurement of refraction.


Soooo, is that what the wort correction factor is for? and does the milwaukee need to be compensated with it? @anybody
 
I don't think so. Turbidity is what causes the line in the optical refractometer to appear blurry. I can usually estimate the center of the blur close enough but if I want accurate value I can pass the sample through a coffee filter. You may need that trick to even get a reading out of the digital refractometer.

Wort correction factor has to do with issue that the mixture of sugars in wort is not pure sucrose or pure fructose -- two sugars different refractometers may be calibrated to. To determine the wort correction factor you have to make wort and test it with a hydrometer and then compare that value to what you get in your refractometer, as converted from brix to SG. (The hydrometer here is assumed to be correct prob best to test it in distilled water and carefully made sucrose solution,) You can dilute the wort a few times and remeasure each time to get an estimate of the average difference.

The problem with being precise is that not all worts are the same. A wort with a lot of adjuncts is likely a different sugar profile than an all barley malt wort. Different specialty malts may also drive differences. So the wort correction factor is specific to the actual recipe. If you are industrial brewer trying to hit your numbers exactly-on every time to extent that your process is to brew strong and dilute to your label ABV target, knowing your wort specific correction factor matters and is likely worth determining for your recipe. Most of us homebrewers are happy enough with an estimated factor (I remember 4% being suggested somewhere), and others go ahead and determine it for one or more typical worts they brew and take average value. But @bracconiere you may be the exception. It might even be interesting science experiment to see if you get different wort correction factor with same recipe made with different batches of your malt.
 
Right, so we might not want to measure turbidity but it certainly affects (interferes with) the measurement of refraction.
Yes, however those same contaminants can affect the density and thus the accuracy of a specific gravity reading of a turbid hydrometer sample. That's why it's important, from an accuracy standpoint, that both refractometer and hydrometer samples should be settled and degassed. The presence of suspended particles in a sample will alter the refractive index and the density of the sample, as will dissolved (and evolved) gasses present in the sample. So the bottom line question is: which methodology gives a more accurate reading?

I suppose if a series of hydrometer samples taken at different stages of a brew cycle from post mash to packaging had the same level of turbidity, then the change in density (SG) would only be due to the fermentation of sugars in the wort/beer. But the brewing process involves the process of clarification either through settling or fining, so the first (pre-boil) sample is denser because it measures the [presence of sugars plus solids]. The last (post clarification) sample measures the [drop in sugars plus the presence of alcohol minus the solids]. By measuring the Original Gravity and the Final Gravity we can calculate % Alcohol By Volume, although this method has inherent errors since it doesn't account for the density of solids in the first sample minus the lack of density of solids in the last sample.

Conversely, a brix refractometer measures the concentration of a specific sugar dissolved in a sample, in this case the specific sugar sucrose, based on the degree of refraction that light experiences when passing through the sample. This angle (refractive index, or RI) is constant for whatever is dissolved in the sample. The RI of maltose (primary sugar in beer wort) is approximately 4% greater than sucrose so the reading of the refractometer sample is often multiplied x 1.04 Corrective Index Factor to more accurately measure "sugar" content of a wort. This corrective factor is a general attempt to correct for all the "tose" RI differences from sucrose, including maltriose and other sugar fractions present. Turbidity in the sample affects the ability of light to pass through it to be refracted by the prism of the refractometer, so the reading can be either muddled or inconsistent. That's why a settled sample will always be more accurate.
 
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I keep an ice bath on counter during brewday and chill my test samples in a stainless cocktail shaker in the ice batch. Mash temp or boiling to room temp in seconds. Have to be careful not to overchill but when I do I can always warm the shaker and sample back up by dipping it into my HLT.
That's a great technique. I usually put my samples in a nearby freezer, then surround them with frozen items. Your method saves me a few steps, plus keeps me from thawing those steaks!
 
Yes, however those same contaminants can affect the density and thus the accuracy of a specific gravity reading of a turbid hydrometer sample. That's why it's important, from an accuracy standpoint, that both refractometer and hydrometer samples should be settled and degassed. The presence of suspended particles in a sample will alter the refractive index and the density of the sample, as will dissolved (and evolved) gasses present in the sample. So the bottom line question is: which methodology gives a more accurate reading?

I suppose if a series of hydrometer samples taken at different stages of a brew cycle from post mash to packaging had the same level of turbidity, then the change in density (SG) would only be due to the fermentation of sugars in the wort/beer. But the brewing process involves the process of clarification either through settling or fining, so the first (pre-boil) sample is denser because it measures the [presence of sugars plus solids]. The last (post clarification) sample measures the [drop in sugars plus the presence of alcohol minus the solids]. By measuring the Original Gravity and the Final Gravity we can calculate % Alcohol By Volume, although this method has inherent errors since it doesn't account for the density of solids in the first sample minus the lack of density of solids in the last sample.

Conversely, a brix refractometer measures the concentration of a specific sugar dissolved in a sample, in this case the specific sugar sucrose, based on the degree of refraction that light experiences when passing through the sample. This angle (refractive index, or RI) is constant for whatever is dissolved in the sample. The RI of maltose (primary sugar in beer wort) is approximately 4% greater than sucrose so the reading of the refractometer sample is often multiplied x 1.04 Corrective Index Factor to more accurately measure "sugar" content of a wort. This corrective factor is a general attempt to correct for all the "tose" RI differences from sucrose, including maltriose and other sugar fractions present. Turbidity in the sample affects the ability of light to pass through it to be refracted by the prism of the refractometer, so the reading can be either muddled or inconsistent. That's why a settled sample will always be more accurate.
Thank you, this has been a quesion of mine since making wine several years ago. I will let the samples settle and maybe find out how to de-gas. I really like (well, used to) the ease of the refractometer.
 
update, just brewed and noticed, out of the corner of my eye, when i put it sample on the thingy. the temp took like 30+ seconds to stabilize. before noticing, i just ignored it, and took a reading right off. it's a lot more consistent when i wait for the temp readout to reach whatever it stops at before hitting read.....


reading of my wort was 16.4, hydro said 1.062 at 85-90f....so i'd say it's a keeper...
 
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