Words of wisdom. I tried some of KingBrianI's no-boil "authentic" batch on two occasions. I think I finally nailed down the main flavors: cigarette ash, maybe some pond water with a little sweetness and yeast. If this is what they drank in the 13th century....**** I'm not cut out for that.
Medieval Ale- Discussion and Experiences
- Thread starter flyangler18
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Words of wisdom. I tried some of KingBrianI's no-boil "authentic" batch on two occasions. I think I finally nailed down the main flavors: cigarette ash, maybe some pond water with a little sweetness and yeast. If this is what they drank in the 13th century....**** I'm not cut out for that.
KingBrianI
Well-Known Member
Haha! Did it gush on you?
Not at all for about a minute. Then I heard it start to fizzle and a slow stream of foam starting coming out of it. So kind of. I got to work an hour late today because I felt weird and had a terrible headache when I woke up. I don't know if it was medieval ale related, but I think that is my last dance with that stuff. It really did taste like it was steeped with cigarette butts.
dwarven_stout
Well-Known Member
Aarhhg this thread is back from the dead! 
Wonderful information in here, I am going to do a small batch of Bob's medieval ale as well:
70% Oat Malt
15% Wheat Malt
15% Barley Malt
It's going to be for a ren fest outing (some friends and I always go in the fall and camp and all that fun stuff). Good times. I want to do it as authentic as possible, so I'll be brewing shortly before we go so we can drink this stuff really young. I'll try to bottle it in 1L flip-tops a little before fermentation is over to get some natural carbonation in the bottles. I'm probably going to do a short 15 minute boil to pasteurize the wort, not necessarily very authentic, but I don't want to give anyone diarrhea during a camp out. I think the amount of live yeast in the beer will be bad enough.
I had a few thoughts about the process though.
Dough-in water temperature? I am wondering about this one. I would assume that medieval brewers weren't making 5 gallon batches, but much bigger ones. Their temperature drop on adding the near-boiling water to the grist would be larger than ours with their larger grain bill, and their bigger mash tun, I just don't know by how much.
Microbes, infection, etc.? I am also interested in the difference between the airborne wild yeast spores and bacteria of today, and the composition they would have had hundreds of years ago. I would guess we get different sorts of infections if we leave our beer out (I'm just conjecturing here...) The middle ages were significantly more agrarian than today. From what I've been reading I gather that (at least before the black plague) most if not all of the available land was used for agriculture, or pasture. Everyone grew something as a matter of survival, and I suspect that his must have resulted in a different "infections" in the beer. I'd be hesitant to let wild spores infect my batch today, especially since I live in a city, and suspect that there are far nastier things around than there would have been on a manor in the middle ages. Even a city like London, which was huge by their standards, is a pretty small town by ours, and was surrounded by farms to boot. I'm thinking they must have had more "lambic" style infections, and less gut-rotting slime mold-type infections than we'd get today. Anyone have thoughts on this?
Smokey character? How did they kiln grains back then? Unless they took great pains in separating the smoke from the grains they were roasting, I would guess their ales and beers had a lot more smokey, roasted character. Would it be more authentic to use smoked malts instead of plain ones?
Wonderful information in here, I am going to do a small batch of Bob's medieval ale as well:
70% Oat Malt
15% Wheat Malt
15% Barley Malt
It's going to be for a ren fest outing (some friends and I always go in the fall and camp and all that fun stuff). Good times. I want to do it as authentic as possible, so I'll be brewing shortly before we go so we can drink this stuff really young. I'll try to bottle it in 1L flip-tops a little before fermentation is over to get some natural carbonation in the bottles. I'm probably going to do a short 15 minute boil to pasteurize the wort, not necessarily very authentic, but I don't want to give anyone diarrhea during a camp out. I think the amount of live yeast in the beer will be bad enough.
I had a few thoughts about the process though.
Dough-in water temperature? I am wondering about this one. I would assume that medieval brewers weren't making 5 gallon batches, but much bigger ones. Their temperature drop on adding the near-boiling water to the grist would be larger than ours with their larger grain bill, and their bigger mash tun, I just don't know by how much.
Microbes, infection, etc.? I am also interested in the difference between the airborne wild yeast spores and bacteria of today, and the composition they would have had hundreds of years ago. I would guess we get different sorts of infections if we leave our beer out (I'm just conjecturing here...) The middle ages were significantly more agrarian than today. From what I've been reading I gather that (at least before the black plague) most if not all of the available land was used for agriculture, or pasture. Everyone grew something as a matter of survival, and I suspect that his must have resulted in a different "infections" in the beer. I'd be hesitant to let wild spores infect my batch today, especially since I live in a city, and suspect that there are far nastier things around than there would have been on a manor in the middle ages. Even a city like London, which was huge by their standards, is a pretty small town by ours, and was surrounded by farms to boot. I'm thinking they must have had more "lambic" style infections, and less gut-rotting slime mold-type infections than we'd get today. Anyone have thoughts on this?
Smokey character? How did they kiln grains back then? Unless they took great pains in separating the smoke from the grains they were roasting, I would guess their ales and beers had a lot more smokey, roasted character. Would it be more authentic to use smoked malts instead of plain ones?
cmdrico7812
Well-Known Member
I think your ratio of Oats to Barley is off. As posted by flyangler, check out this article.
Why use so many oats? The guy did the research on this (the article I linked) uses a 3:1 ratio of barley to oats, almost the opposite of the recipes on here. Has anyone tried the recipes from this article? I plan to soon.
Why use so many oats? The guy did the research on this (the article I linked) uses a 3:1 ratio of barley to oats, almost the opposite of the recipes on here. Has anyone tried the recipes from this article? I plan to soon.
![Craft A Brew - Safale S-04 Dry Yeast - Fermentis - English Ale Dry Yeast - For English and American Ales and Hard Apple Ciders - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [1 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41fVGNh6JfL._SL500_.jpg)
The_Professor
Well-Known Member
I don't see that the 3:1 barley/oat ratio is based on the Monks of St. Paul's Cathedral inventory. And it is an inventory more than a recipe. There is another article somewhere out in internetland that discusses whether the units are by weight or measure which can make a difference.
I have attempted 2 small batches of the recipe in this thread and they have failed for one reason or another. I will give it another go sometime. First batch-the oat malt did not convert. I added amylase to the second batch and tried it no boil. Tasted sour and lemony and carbonated in the bottles with no priming sugar addition. I'll be boiling then next attempt.
PhilOssiferzStone
Active Member
As a medieval reenactor who got into home brewing to try out some of the recipes I've been carrying around for years, I'm pleased as heck to see this thread and the enthusiasm of the people in it. Thought I'd post this here for anyone who's interested. It's a Restoration-era honey ale dated 1669:
Sir Thomas Gower makes his pleasant and wholsom drink of Ale and Honey thus. Take fourty Gallons of small Ale, and five Gallons of Honey. When the Ale is ready to Tun, and is still warm, take out ten Gallons of it; which, whiles it is hot, mingle with it the five Gallons of Honey, stirring it exceedingly well with a clean arm till they be perfectly incorporated. Then cover it, and let it cool and stand still.
At the same time you begin to disolve the honey in this parcel, you take the other of thirty Gallons also warm, and Tun it up with barm, and put it into a vessel capable to hold all the whole quantity of Ale and Honey, and let it work there; and because the vessel will be so far from being full, that the gross foulness of the Ale cannot work over, make holes in the sides of the barrel even with the superficies of the Liquor in it, out of which the gross feculence may purge; and these holes must be fast shut, when you put in the rest of the Ale with the Honey: which you must do, when you see that the strong working of the other is over; and that it works but gently, which may be after two or three or four days, according to the warmth of the season. You must warm your solution of honey, when you put it in, to be as warm as Ale, when you Tun it; and then it will set the whole a working a fresh, and casting out more foulness; which it would do to violently, if you put it in at the first of the Tunning it.
It is not amiss that some feculence lie thick upon the Ale, and work not all out; for that will keep in the spirits. After you have dissolved the honey in the Ale, you must boil it a little to ski, it; but skim it not, til it have stood a while from the fire to cool; else you will skim away much of the Honey, which will still rise as long as it boileth. If you will not make so great a quantity at a time, do it in less in the same proportions. He maketh it about Michaelmas for Lent.
Sir Thomas Gower makes his pleasant and wholsom drink of Ale and Honey thus. Take fourty Gallons of small Ale, and five Gallons of Honey. When the Ale is ready to Tun, and is still warm, take out ten Gallons of it; which, whiles it is hot, mingle with it the five Gallons of Honey, stirring it exceedingly well with a clean arm till they be perfectly incorporated. Then cover it, and let it cool and stand still.
At the same time you begin to disolve the honey in this parcel, you take the other of thirty Gallons also warm, and Tun it up with barm, and put it into a vessel capable to hold all the whole quantity of Ale and Honey, and let it work there; and because the vessel will be so far from being full, that the gross foulness of the Ale cannot work over, make holes in the sides of the barrel even with the superficies of the Liquor in it, out of which the gross feculence may purge; and these holes must be fast shut, when you put in the rest of the Ale with the Honey: which you must do, when you see that the strong working of the other is over; and that it works but gently, which may be after two or three or four days, according to the warmth of the season. You must warm your solution of honey, when you put it in, to be as warm as Ale, when you Tun it; and then it will set the whole a working a fresh, and casting out more foulness; which it would do to violently, if you put it in at the first of the Tunning it.
It is not amiss that some feculence lie thick upon the Ale, and work not all out; for that will keep in the spirits. After you have dissolved the honey in the Ale, you must boil it a little to ski, it; but skim it not, til it have stood a while from the fire to cool; else you will skim away much of the Honey, which will still rise as long as it boileth. If you will not make so great a quantity at a time, do it in less in the same proportions. He maketh it about Michaelmas for Lent.
PhilOssiferzStone
Active Member
Now -- a few notes on the above, and some random info for the benefit of anyone who's ever puzzled over archaic source material:
-A 'tun' is a barrel holding about 250 gallons, or about five times more than a hogshead (!), a 'lead' is the pot you boil/seethe your wort in (which often *was* made out of lead [ugh]), 'barm' is the yeast you skimmed off another batch of beer, and an 'arm' is a long-handled stirring spoon -- not the one your hand is attached to!
-For a modern homebrewer with an airlock, adding the yeast and the honey separately is probably not necessary. We don't have to worry about the 'gross feculence' blowing the top of our tun off!
-Michaelmas is in September and Lent is in March, so you're letting this stuff age in the cask about six months. You can bet the honey had been completely broken down by that time, and the final product was nice and bubbly and prolly not that sweet at all.
-Medieval brewers impartially used whatever kind of malted grain came to hand. A lot didn't have any barley in them at all. But a good safe starting point is what the English called drudge, or drutch, or dredge depending on what source material you're looking at. It's basically a half and half combo of oats and barley, and everybody used it for everything for centuries, at least in Britain -- bread, pastry, ale, animal feed.
-Brit brewers typically boiled their grain twice, and got a first and second running out of it. Boils might last up to an hour and a half total, which corresponds roughly to our mash for an hour/boil for an hour. Often both runnings were combined in the final product.
-Note that with Gower's recipe you're starting with a fermented ale -- not wort -- and adding more yeast and honey on top of *that*. This is a double-fermented ale and I'll bet you it packs quite a wallop. Also note that 'small' ale, and small beer, might refer either to the stuff you brewed off the second runnings of the grain *or* a product that wasn't that strong to begin with. A good many medieval and Renaissance-era beers and ales were pretty doggone big, so how 'small' the ale Sir Thomas refers to is open to question. One recipe for ordinary household ale I have, dating from the late 1500's, calls for the equivalent of 15 lbs. of malted grain per 5-gallon batch. (Remember when breaking down bushels to cups that a bushel of grain is different than a bushel of something else, and different kinds of grain have their own bushels). So I've been hazarding a private guess that six to eight pounds of mashed grain for the modern home brewer would qualify as 'small.'
- As you can imagine, fuel was expensive. One recipe from 1577 by a professional brewer says he values his malt at ten shillings and his wood at four. So imagine paying twenty bucks for your malt and eight bucks for propane or electricity, every single batch! However, most ordinary folks who made their own ale at least got it to the point where it was bubbling. 'Seething' is a term you'll see a lot in period recipes.
-People who couldn't afford barrels generally stored their ale in large stone crocks, where it could achieve the same sort of happy critical mass as cask ale. It would indeed not have been carbonated, but it *would* be nice and cool and pleasant to drink. Casked ale was, and is, stored in the cellar and is both bubbly and cool when it is served, though not ice-cold.
-All brewing instruments and containers, including the barrels, were routinely scalded with hot water to sterilize them. English ale during the 1300's was exported all over Europe, and it was said to be as clear as a glass of Bordeaux wine -- high praise for the period. I've drunk several authentic medieval ales and beers at SCA events, and a lot of this information comes from the people who brewed it. Anyone who cleaves to the line of 'oh, it was flat and syrupy because our primitive barbarian ancestors didn't have hops or sugar, and cloudy because they didn't have sanitation' ought to get a boot in the rear.
I am off to a hunting trip in Montana at the end of the month and do not have time to attempt it now, but when I get back I intend to make some of Sir Thomas' ale for myself, using dredge as a base. I'll certainly provide this gentle company with a progress report in due time.
/doffs his hat
-A 'tun' is a barrel holding about 250 gallons, or about five times more than a hogshead (!), a 'lead' is the pot you boil/seethe your wort in (which often *was* made out of lead [ugh]), 'barm' is the yeast you skimmed off another batch of beer, and an 'arm' is a long-handled stirring spoon -- not the one your hand is attached to!
-For a modern homebrewer with an airlock, adding the yeast and the honey separately is probably not necessary. We don't have to worry about the 'gross feculence' blowing the top of our tun off!
-Michaelmas is in September and Lent is in March, so you're letting this stuff age in the cask about six months. You can bet the honey had been completely broken down by that time, and the final product was nice and bubbly and prolly not that sweet at all.
-Medieval brewers impartially used whatever kind of malted grain came to hand. A lot didn't have any barley in them at all. But a good safe starting point is what the English called drudge, or drutch, or dredge depending on what source material you're looking at. It's basically a half and half combo of oats and barley, and everybody used it for everything for centuries, at least in Britain -- bread, pastry, ale, animal feed.
-Brit brewers typically boiled their grain twice, and got a first and second running out of it. Boils might last up to an hour and a half total, which corresponds roughly to our mash for an hour/boil for an hour. Often both runnings were combined in the final product.
-Note that with Gower's recipe you're starting with a fermented ale -- not wort -- and adding more yeast and honey on top of *that*. This is a double-fermented ale and I'll bet you it packs quite a wallop. Also note that 'small' ale, and small beer, might refer either to the stuff you brewed off the second runnings of the grain *or* a product that wasn't that strong to begin with. A good many medieval and Renaissance-era beers and ales were pretty doggone big, so how 'small' the ale Sir Thomas refers to is open to question. One recipe for ordinary household ale I have, dating from the late 1500's, calls for the equivalent of 15 lbs. of malted grain per 5-gallon batch. (Remember when breaking down bushels to cups that a bushel of grain is different than a bushel of something else, and different kinds of grain have their own bushels). So I've been hazarding a private guess that six to eight pounds of mashed grain for the modern home brewer would qualify as 'small.'
- As you can imagine, fuel was expensive. One recipe from 1577 by a professional brewer says he values his malt at ten shillings and his wood at four. So imagine paying twenty bucks for your malt and eight bucks for propane or electricity, every single batch! However, most ordinary folks who made their own ale at least got it to the point where it was bubbling. 'Seething' is a term you'll see a lot in period recipes.
-People who couldn't afford barrels generally stored their ale in large stone crocks, where it could achieve the same sort of happy critical mass as cask ale. It would indeed not have been carbonated, but it *would* be nice and cool and pleasant to drink. Casked ale was, and is, stored in the cellar and is both bubbly and cool when it is served, though not ice-cold.
-All brewing instruments and containers, including the barrels, were routinely scalded with hot water to sterilize them. English ale during the 1300's was exported all over Europe, and it was said to be as clear as a glass of Bordeaux wine -- high praise for the period. I've drunk several authentic medieval ales and beers at SCA events, and a lot of this information comes from the people who brewed it. Anyone who cleaves to the line of 'oh, it was flat and syrupy because our primitive barbarian ancestors didn't have hops or sugar, and cloudy because they didn't have sanitation' ought to get a boot in the rear.
I am off to a hunting trip in Montana at the end of the month and do not have time to attempt it now, but when I get back I intend to make some of Sir Thomas' ale for myself, using dredge as a base. I'll certainly provide this gentle company with a progress report in due time.
/doffs his hat
munche
Well-Known Member
PhilOssiferzStone, interesting stuff! When I feel like I've mastered modern beers, I might try to take one of these on one day
cmdrico7812
Well-Known Member
So I've been thinking about giving this a go. I'm a bit of a nerd and have been reading the "Song of Ice and Fire" series and thinking about medieval ales. I was inspired by this site that has been reference in this post before: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~pwp/tofi/medieval_english_ale.html
The author presents two recipes for recreating medieval English ales. I did kind of a hybrid between the two recipes. Here is what I did:
Ingredients:
4.5 lbs Marris Otter
.5 lbs Marris Otter roasted at 225 for 50 mins and 275 for 10 mins in the oven
1.5 lbs. Flaked Oats
Heated 3.5 gallons of water to a boil.
Added 2 quarts to mash tun.
Added grain.
Added all but one gallon of water to the tun. Did not stir. Let sit for 20 mins.
Added the remaining water after bringing it back to a boil. Stirred grist well. Let sit for 3 hours 15 mins.
Drained first runnings into fermenter slowly. Got just over one gallon of wort.
Heated two gallons of water to boiling.
Added 1.5 gallons water to mash tun. Let sit again for 30-45 mins.
Drained second runnings into same fermenter. Got about 2.5 to 2.75 gallons total.
Color is light amber. First runnings were darker than second as expected.
Let cool to about 70 degrees. Pitched one package of Nottingham yeast. Added airlock.
It's been in the fermenter bubbling away for a day now. It popped off the stopper and it smelled like any other fermentation, maybe a bit more like bread.
Since I didn't take any gravity readings, when the fermentation slows to one bubble every two minutes or so I'll take a taste and see what happened. The wort was fairly clear going into the fermenter and I didn't recirculate the first runnings.
Let me know your thoughts and I'll let you know how it turns out.
The author presents two recipes for recreating medieval English ales. I did kind of a hybrid between the two recipes. Here is what I did:
Ingredients:
4.5 lbs Marris Otter
.5 lbs Marris Otter roasted at 225 for 50 mins and 275 for 10 mins in the oven
1.5 lbs. Flaked Oats
Heated 3.5 gallons of water to a boil.
Added 2 quarts to mash tun.
Added grain.
Added all but one gallon of water to the tun. Did not stir. Let sit for 20 mins.
Added the remaining water after bringing it back to a boil. Stirred grist well. Let sit for 3 hours 15 mins.
Drained first runnings into fermenter slowly. Got just over one gallon of wort.
Heated two gallons of water to boiling.
Added 1.5 gallons water to mash tun. Let sit again for 30-45 mins.
Drained second runnings into same fermenter. Got about 2.5 to 2.75 gallons total.
Color is light amber. First runnings were darker than second as expected.
Let cool to about 70 degrees. Pitched one package of Nottingham yeast. Added airlock.
It's been in the fermenter bubbling away for a day now. It popped off the stopper and it smelled like any other fermentation, maybe a bit more like bread.
Since I didn't take any gravity readings, when the fermentation slows to one bubble every two minutes or so I'll take a taste and see what happened. The wort was fairly clear going into the fermenter and I didn't recirculate the first runnings.
Let me know your thoughts and I'll let you know how it turns out.
cmdrico7812
Well-Known Member
Already so I couldn't wait until the fermentation slowed down. I popped off the plug and tried a bit of the medieval ale I detailed previously. It tasted great! It's fermenting at about 64 degrees, but it didn't taste warm. It was unexpectedly refreshing. You could definitely taste the liquid bread and grain in it, but the harsh tannins didn't come through. I could see how you would drink this to refresh yourself in the summer.
Once the fermentation slows a bit more (probably tomorrow morning), I'll put the fermenter in our back room (at just above outside temps, about 20 here in Michigan right now) since it won't fit in my fridge, and leave it there. I'll try samples every few days to see how it changes. Overall, I think it tasted great just two days after brewing.
Once the fermentation slows a bit more (probably tomorrow morning), I'll put the fermenter in our back room (at just above outside temps, about 20 here in Michigan right now) since it won't fit in my fridge, and leave it there. I'll try samples every few days to see how it changes. Overall, I think it tasted great just two days after brewing.
The_Professor
Well-Known Member
I am running up on another attempt at this recipe/inventory.
This time I have home malted barley and spelt/wheat. I am just starting the malted oats.
I'll use a gruit mix of Marsh Rosemary, Sweet Gale, and Yarrow
This time I have home malted barley and spelt/wheat. I am just starting the malted oats.
I'll use a gruit mix of Marsh Rosemary, Sweet Gale, and Yarrow
The_Professor
Well-Known Member
I have home malted oats, barley, and spelt as well as (store bought) Marsh Rosemary, Sweet Gale, and Yarrow.
It will be a 2-2.5 gallon batch depending on conversion and such.
Currently thinking 0.20-0.25 each herb at both bittering and flameout.
It will be a 2-2.5 gallon batch depending on conversion and such.
Currently thinking 0.20-0.25 each herb at both bittering and flameout.
OriginalIrishman
Member
Well this thread is going to get me in trouble! I am only on Extract kit number 4 and having a great time and some good beer but this is a whole other animal I am going to have way to many projects at once. The way these are sounding is very interesting and reminding me of a beer one of our local breweris makes that I love. Squatters Root Cellar and it is an american Ale that is aged in Port barrels I love the stuff!!!!
Here is a review
and a review here
Sorry I admit I am the Utah Beer Guy and do not update my blog enough I am to busy making beer as of late but will catch up soon!
Here is a review
and a review here
Sorry I admit I am the Utah Beer Guy and do not update my blog enough I am to busy making beer as of late but will catch up soon!
The_Professor
Well-Known Member
I did brew up "The Monks Of St. Paul's Cathedral Ale" a couple days ago.
I was a bit surprised that my home malted grains converted just as well as any malt I have bought. I did have some amylase standing by in case conversion was horribly low but I did not use any at all. A Brix reading half way through the alpha amylase rest was good enough I decided to let it ride.
The grain bill:
1 lb 4 oz malted barley, pale
1 lb 5 oz malted spelt, pale (wheat)
1 lb 8 oz malted oats, pale
1 lb 5 oz malted oats, munich style (additional toasting)
7 oz crystal oats (these tasted like a granola bar)
I did a step mash:
20 @ 104
15 @ 120
20 @ 140
60 @ 152
10 @ 168
Preboil Brix for 3.5 gallons 9.0
Post 90 min boil 14.0
Since the gravity was good and I was a bit short of my volume I added some water to make a final 2.2 gallons in the fermenter. Didn't take another reading, I assuming about 12.0 OG Brix.
I added 0.25 each herb (Marsh Rosemary, Sweet Gale, Yarrow) for 60 min boil.
Today I did a taste test and Brix reading. The Brix was 8.0 so all is going well there.
The bittering herb addition seems to be in the ballpark, the ale is not overly sweet or bitter. The bitterness is not "clean", there is some herb flavor, but not overpowering or bad.
I was a bit surprised that my home malted grains converted just as well as any malt I have bought. I did have some amylase standing by in case conversion was horribly low but I did not use any at all. A Brix reading half way through the alpha amylase rest was good enough I decided to let it ride.
The grain bill:
1 lb 4 oz malted barley, pale
1 lb 5 oz malted spelt, pale (wheat)
1 lb 8 oz malted oats, pale
1 lb 5 oz malted oats, munich style (additional toasting)
7 oz crystal oats (these tasted like a granola bar)
I did a step mash:
20 @ 104
15 @ 120
20 @ 140
60 @ 152
10 @ 168
Preboil Brix for 3.5 gallons 9.0
Post 90 min boil 14.0
Since the gravity was good and I was a bit short of my volume I added some water to make a final 2.2 gallons in the fermenter. Didn't take another reading, I assuming about 12.0 OG Brix.
I added 0.25 each herb (Marsh Rosemary, Sweet Gale, Yarrow) for 60 min boil.
Today I did a taste test and Brix reading. The Brix was 8.0 so all is going well there.
The bittering herb addition seems to be in the ballpark, the ale is not overly sweet or bitter. The bitterness is not "clean", there is some herb flavor, but not overpowering or bad.
COLObrewer
Well-Known Member
Can you expound on this biterness/flavor a little? I've found when boiling herbs to use about half as much as one would hops, even at that my "gruit style" ales have taken extensive conditioning to be really good. Also did you add the flameout addition or just 1hr?
The_Professor
Well-Known Member
I'll answer the second part first. I did not add the flameout addition. I decided the bitterness addition was the most important to me and was not sure how much flavor would carry through.Can you expound on this biterness/flavor a little? I've found when boiling herbs to use about half as much as one would hops, even at that my "gruit style" ales have taken extensive conditioning to be really good. Also did you add the flameout addition or just 1hr?
The reason I had planned a bittering and flameout addition was because one source I read (sorry no link) said to add gruit during the boil and into the fermenting ale. I had thought flameout would be good for sanitation purposes, but it looks like I may do a dry herb addition for anywhere from 12-48HRS depending on the flavor after at least a full week fermenting.
Now the first part...
Bear in mind it has only been fermenting a few days, and the flavor is different today than yesterday. I taste some herbs, the finish is about the right bitterness, and the aftertaste is herbs. The herb flavor is not real strong and I would say it is the "bitter condition" of each of those herbs. I think it would be good to complement with the fresh flavor of one or all of those herbs but I am not going to add anything if I think it will overpower the brew. I think it is the yarrow that is a bit citrusy, the other two more earthy with a sweet and sour thing going on.
I would not add more than I did, adding the smaller amount may have worked as well.
Currently I am not unhappy with the flavor, but there is a ways to go.
COLObrewer
Well-Known Member
Thanx for that, also something that may help you separate the herb flavors is to make a tea with each one to see what they add. This may help in deciding any dry additions. I have made a tea with these before but can't find my notes to date.
The_Professor
Well-Known Member
I have made some teas with the herbs and it helps some.
Starting at about 7 days I was sampling the ale to decide if I wanted to dry herb. Of course, since it is so young, the flavor is a moving target. One time seeming a bit tart, another time more mellow. I did decide to add 1/4 each herb for the dry herb addition. It was added for about 12HRS.
I went ahead and bottled it at 9 days (the dry herb was started the evening before) hoping for a bit of carb without adding anything else.
Here's what it looked like pre-bottling:
Starting at about 7 days I was sampling the ale to decide if I wanted to dry herb. Of course, since it is so young, the flavor is a moving target. One time seeming a bit tart, another time more mellow. I did decide to add 1/4 each herb for the dry herb addition. It was added for about 12HRS.
I went ahead and bottled it at 9 days (the dry herb was started the evening before) hoping for a bit of carb without adding anything else.
Here's what it looked like pre-bottling:
The_Professor
Well-Known Member
The_Professor
Well-Known Member
After a week the "Monk's Ale" is lightly carbonated. No real head but small bubbles the whole time while drinking it. The color remains cloudy light tan.
The yarrow continues to be the dominating flavor with a tart citrus flavor that I do not find overpowering, but wish was more subdued. The other herbs are providing a more earthy background flavor with this batch. The mouthfeel is smooth and full, I assume because of the large oat addition.
Next time around I will change the yarrow addition, either by eliminating it or lowering it, not sure which.
Right now it is an interesting ale that I am enjoying drinking.
The yarrow continues to be the dominating flavor with a tart citrus flavor that I do not find overpowering, but wish was more subdued. The other herbs are providing a more earthy background flavor with this batch. The mouthfeel is smooth and full, I assume because of the large oat addition.
Next time around I will change the yarrow addition, either by eliminating it or lowering it, not sure which.
Right now it is an interesting ale that I am enjoying drinking.
The_Professor
Well-Known Member
The last of "The Monks Of St. Paul's Cathedral Ale"/gruit was consumed during the weekend of the 4th. All the comments in my post above continue to apply.
The tart lemon flavor of the yarrow is more pronounced when chilled and less at cellar temps.
I'll look forward to trying this again with some small changes.
The tart lemon flavor of the yarrow is more pronounced when chilled and less at cellar temps.
I'll look forward to trying this again with some small changes.
The_Professor
Well-Known Member
It's about a year and a half later and I have made my second go at this.
Home malted grains again-slightly different bill, slightly larger batch size. The herbs were added only for the boil, no dry herb addition. And I did add just a bit of yarrow but much less than before. I really like this brew. There is some bitterness/tartness to it so it is not malty sweet. It has some body so it is not like drinking water. The flavor is a not quite spearmint herb with some fruit.
My thread about it is here.
COLObrewer
Well-Known Member
Congrats! Lets see the last recipe? Also your pics don't seem to be showing up, maybe it's the firewall here at work though.
A thought I just had was malting all the grains together, thinking is that this would be more "medieval" as far as the process goes, not all the grains would be converted at the same rate, lending different flavors, etc to the brew. May not be efficient at all, but that's not what I'm looking for here.
A thought I just had was malting all the grains together, thinking is that this would be more "medieval" as far as the process goes, not all the grains would be converted at the same rate, lending different flavors, etc to the brew. May not be efficient at all, but that's not what I'm looking for here.
jwalk4
Well-Known Member
Whoops, was just about to double post a link.
Can we all vote for a sticky about medieval ales, and medieval brewing information? I think there are a lot of these threads around.
Can we all vote for a sticky about medieval ales, and medieval brewing information? I think there are a lot of these threads around.
The_Professor
Well-Known Member
It is on the provided link, but a bit in pieces.
The grain bill is all the home malted grains shown.
3.5 lbs Malted Oats
2.5 lbs Malted Spelt (wheat)
2.4 lbs Malted Barley
It was supposed to be a 3.0 gallon batch (3.5 gallons minus cold break) at about 6.0 ABV, but I screwed up on my sparging and wound up with less volume at 7.2 ABV.
The herb addition was all for a 90 min boil:
0.35 oz Marsh Rosemary
0.35 oz Sweet Gale
0.15 oz Yarrow (couldn't leave it out altogether)
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