Mead Fractional Freezing Distillation Advice Needed

[Desvio]

You could always do the freeze distill as a stripping run, and then a proper run in a still for a final product?

Thinking about the various freezing and boiling points of the range of alcohols, it almost seems plausible, but I think there is too much "good" product left behind through freeze distillation. If you have a still, think you get better chance of fractioning through heat distillation.

 

[bernardsmith]

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Thinking about the various freezing and boiling points of the range of alcohols, it almost seems plausible, but I think there is too much "good" product left behind through freeze distillation. If you have a still, think you get better chance of fractioning through heat distillation.

Are you sure anything is "left behind" when you freeze the mead or wine? What you leave behind is ice and if your mead was say, 12% alcohol, almost all the 100 % of that 12% is in the liquid that did not freeze - assuming you can extract all the unfrozen liquid from the ice. Which is why if you begin with a gallon you are likely to get about a quart of liquid of which about 1 pint is ethanol (and other congeners). That said, I don't know that you can fraction anything using freezing since water presumably freezes long, long before ethanol (the latter at minus 173.5 while methanol freezes at minus 143.7 (and presumably both freeze at higher temperatures in the presence of water but still no where nearly as high as the coldest of freezers most folk will have access to)).

 

[Toxxyc]

You could always do the freeze distill as a stripping run, and then a proper run in a still for a final product?

Still too much waste, if you ask me. I would much rather do the stripping run in the still, actually, because you'll distill off the volatile compounds first, which is what you want.

IMO, freeze distilling is nice for playing once, or maybe doing it with cheaper spirits, but for mead it's just not worth it. I ended up using around 4.5l of mead to just get a quart (750ml) of the stronger stuff, and it wasn't even clear enough to look good.

 

[Brett_Bellmore]

IMO, freeze distilling is nice for playing once, or maybe doing it with cheaper spirits, but for mead it's just not worth it. I ended up using around 4.5l of mead to just get a quart (750ml) of the stronger stuff, and it wasn't even clear enough to look good.

I suppose it's a matter of taste: Freeze distilling and actual distilling aren't interchangeable. They produce radically different products. Freeze "distilling" removes water, and that's pretty much that. Actual distilling goes on to change the taste profile, rather than just concentrating it. And it's certainly not going to clarify anything, since it doesn't remove particles.

 

[Toxxyc]

Indeed. I found that the freeze distilling is more "forgiving" on flavour, but it does lose a lot of volume. I've discussed this with some other okes as well, and I think what would be great is a very cheap mead distillate (in other words, make a high-ABV mead, quickly but cleanly, but with cheaper honey or sugars to get the distillate out of it), and then to blend it with a good mead after distillation to get to your target ABV, like whisky makers do with water. That should drastically increase the "mead" flavour, but with a much higher yield. My idea is simple, but I don't have a still yet, so I can't try it:

1. Make a high-ABV mead, around the 16~18% ABV, using 50/50 honey and dextrose for cheap alcohol. You're doing to distill it, so the flavours aren't THAT important. Yes, some will come through, but most will be lost.
2. Distill slowly to get a clean distillate using a pot still for maximum flavour.
3. Test the ABV of the distillate and dilute it back to 40% ABV using a standard traditional, made with high-quality honey for maximum flavour. Keep in mind the traditional I'm making sits with full flavour at 11% ABV already.
4. Backsweeten slightly with raw honey. This should put a very nice sweet hit on the liqueur, making it a nice honey-ish drink, I think more closely resembling what people THINK mead should taste like.

And that's my idea. Just need to find a pot still, or someone with a pot still. I'm lucky that it's pretty legal in South Africa, it's just expensive to buy one

 

[bernardsmith]

Still too much waste, if you ask me. I would much rather do the stripping run in the still, actually, because you'll distill off the volatile compounds first, which is what you want.

IMO, freeze distilling is nice for playing once, or maybe doing it with cheaper spirits, but for mead it's just not worth it. I ended up using around 4.5l of mead to just get a quart (750ml) of the stronger stuff, and it wasn't even clear enough to look good.

I am not sure I see the problem. You got 750 ml of a spirit made from 4500 ml of mead - That's about 16.7% of the total volume and that would be 100% ethanol (AKA 200 proof) if the ABV of your mead was around 17%. I am guessing that you obtained about 80 proof from a mead that was around 12%. What do you think you would obtain if you used a pot still to distill for flavor? and if you were looking for vodka (no flavor) , why is it "worth it" to strip all the flavor and aroma from a honey mead to obtain 98% pure alcohol when you could achieve exactly the same result using table sugar at about 1/5 the cost.

 

[cmac62]

I suppose it's a matter of taste: Freeze distilling and actual distilling aren't interchangeable. They produce radically different products. Freeze "distilling" removes water, and that's pretty much that. Actual distilling goes on to change the taste profile, rather than just concentrating it. And it's certainly not going to clarify anything, since it doesn't remove particles.

I would say heat distilling absolutely does remove all particles because you are only collecting the alcohol as it cools in the worm. It wont have any color either. What you get is basically honey moonshine.

 

[Toxxyc]

I am not sure I see the problem. You got 750 ml of a spirit made from 4500 ml of mead - That's about 16.7% of the total volume and that would be 100% ethanol (AKA 200 proof) if the ABV of your mead was around 17%. I am guessing that you obtained about 80 proof from a mead that was around 12%. What do you think you would obtain if you used a pot still to distill for flavor? and if you were looking for vodka (no flavor) , why is it "worth it" to strip all the flavor and aroma from a honey mead to obtain 98% pure alcohol when you could achieve exactly the same result using table sugar at about 1/5 the cost.

Well, the mead I used was at 11% ABV (22 proof). 4,500ml of that mead contains 495ml of pure ethanol (I won't do stripping runs, as I ferment very clean). From the freeze distilling, I got 750ml of drink at around 25~30% ABV, if I'm to trust my taste. That is only 225ml of ethanol extracted if I work on the high end of that scale. It's more than half the ethanol lost.

Yes, I know in distilling you won't get 100% ethanol on the run. I'll get around 75% ABV instead, more if the still is treated well, but I don't want to lose THAT much flavour. 75% is a realistic run. That then gets cut back to the desired ABV with flavourful mixes - mead and honey. That's my point - freeze distilling makes a killing on the mead.

On the flavours - a pot still doesn't strip all the flavours. Vodka is usually distilled in a column or reflex still, stripping all the flavours. Something like Scotch whisky is distilled in a pot still, and it's obvious from peated whiskies that the flavours definitely isn't all lost.

 

[bernardsmith]

I would use a proof and tralle hydrometer rather than your taste to determine the proof or ABV of your freeze distillation. That it may or may not taste "hot" may have very little to do with the proof of your final product and whether anything was lost or you simply had all 11% ABV in your bottle just diluted with some H2O is the real question. (11% of 4500 is about 495 ml and you got you say 750 ml.) My bet is just about 100 percent of the alcohol was captured PLUS another 250 ml of water. So you loss hardly a drop, you just diluted the ethanol with water.

 

[Brett_Bellmore]

I would say heat distilling absolutely does remove all particles because you are only collecting the alcohol as it cools in the worm. It wont have any color either. What you get is basically honey moonshine.

Yeah, I could have worded that better. I meant freezing won't remove particles.

 

[Toxxyc]

I would use a proof and tralle hydrometer rather than your taste to determine the proof or ABV of your freeze distillation. That it may or may not taste "hot" may have very little to do with the proof of your final product and whether anything was lost or you simply had all 11% ABV in your bottle just diluted with some H2O is the real question. (11% of 4500 is about 495 ml and you got you say 750 ml.) My bet is just about 100 percent of the alcohol was captured PLUS another 250 ml of water. So you loss hardly a drop, you just diluted the ethanol with water.

I understand, yes. It's impossible to get all the alcohol out with freeze distilling though. At around 30% the water stops freezing in the solution, so that's more or less the maximum extraction you can get. It does depend on how cold you can make the solution, yes, but from what I've found it doesn't make a massive difference.

My point is - freeze distilling works. It works pretty well, actually. Will I do it for large amounts on an expensive drink like mead again? Hell no. It's simply not worth it, for me, personally.

 

[Miraculix]

I think it might be important to mention that during the freezing process, alcohol and water do not separate completely. What is happening is that concentrations change. The ice contains a lower percentage of alcohol than the surrounding liquid, therefore it is able to freeze. But what is not happening is that only the water freezes. The ice will always contain a certain percentage of alcohol, and that loss might be quite high.

It's like putting a beer into the freezer. It contains 5% but will freeze solid. The bottle of vodka next to it stays liquid.

 

[Brett_Bellmore]

Technically, what happens is that the water forms ice crystals, and the ice crystals are, themselves, pure water, but alcohol and other substances can get trapped in the space between the crystals, instead of ending up in the liquid phase. This is why the frozen booze isn't transparent, it's a mix of pure ice and trapped booze, and the light is diffused by the many boundaries.

You need to freeze the liquid as slowly as possible: Slow growing ice forms larger crystals with less trapped volume, so more of the non-water ends up in the liquid phase. Insulate the container except at one point, so that the ice growth starts at that point and proceeds across the container, instead of surrounding the booze.

Mind, this is all from my experience in chemistry lab back in the 70's, separating solutions by crystallizing something out. But there's no reason it shouldn't work the same for booze.

 

[kbelliveau09]

This is my work from today. This is a high gravity mead (16ish%) I have a chest freeze that apparently goes down to -20ºF. The bottles froze to a slightly firm slush. I let each 2 litter bottle thaw about 5 cups out, saved that stuff to rebottle and refreeze. I doubt its going to (refreeze) but I just want to make sure.
Then I let each bottle Thaw out another 6ish oz. I hate any waste and that last part was pretty tasty. Not sure what Im going to do with it, but it tastes great and its slightly stronger than a kombucha in alcohol. (2-3%?) Might be something to give a lightweight or something.
The last pic is the remaining ice.

View attachment 645570 View attachment 645571 View attachment 645572 View attachment 645573

Thanks A TON for poata and info. I'm new to this, and site. Froze some steing honey mead I made . I thought alcohol wouldn't freeze would seperate but came out as your did so didn't know what to do next.. this makes perfect sense so thank you. Then refreeze repeat ( if it freezes at all) to isolate alcohol more and more.
Much appreciated. Was going to add some ice back in if alcohol to strong to lower percent but i think it will be okay not to strong anyway? As long as has honey flavor. Was my first of 10 brews wine and mead and is delicious. A little much sugar wise, others ended dry as directed but I like the strength and sweet honeystaste isn't to much. Just froze onw battle of 6

 

[kbelliveau09]

I think it might be important to mention that during the freezing process, alcohol and water do not separate completely. What is happening is that concentrations change. The ice contains a lower percentage of alcohol than the surrounding liquid, therefore it is able to freeze. But what is not happening is that only the water freezes. The ice will always contain a certain percentage of alcohol, and that loss might be quite high.

It's like putting a beer into the freezer. It contains 5% but will freeze solid. The bottle of vodka next to it stays liquid.yes! I'm new to this, I thought it DID deperate and was simple as that on my honey mead. But this technique will work. Still would be easier and nice if did just separate ice vs liquor

 

[kbelliveau09]

Indeed. I found that the freeze distilling is more "forgiving" on flavour, but it does lose a lot of volume. I've discussed this with some other okes as well, and I think what would be great is a very cheap mead distillate (in other words, make a high-ABV mead, quickly but cleanly, but with cheaper honey or sugars to get the distillate out of it), and then to blend it with a good mead after distillation to get to your target ABV, like whisky makers do with water. That should drastically increase the "mead" flavour, but with a much higher yield. My idea is simple, but I don't have a still yet, so I can't try it:

1. Make a high-ABV mead, around the 16~18% ABV, using 50/50 honey and dextrose for cheap alcohol. You're doing to distill it, so the flavours aren't THAT important. Yes, some will come through, but most will be lost.
2. Distill slowly to get a clean distillate using a pot still for maximum flavour.
3. Test the ABV of the distillate and dilute it back to 40% ABV using a standard traditional, made with high-quality honey for maximum flavour. Keep in mind the traditional I'm making sits with full flavour at 11% ABV already.
4. Backsweeten slightly with raw honey. This should put a very nice sweet hit on the liqueur, making it a nice honey-ish drink, I think more closely resembling what people THINK mead should taste like.

And that's my idea. Just need to find a pot still, or someone with a pot still. I'm lucky that it's pretty legal in South Africa, it's just expensive to buy one

About what I'm doing with moat my wines and meads. Dry ate all the sugar in 3 weeks ish. Reads at 1.0 to .99. Now filtered rebottles letting sit for long time then sweeten later after add yesterday bacteria killer power so doesn't start going again when sweeten. Can always leave more sugar and stays slightly sweet than never have to re sweeten but that doesn't seem to be recipe way people do it. Tastes strong and good though so don't know why. Guess. I'll learn. Newbie.

 

[kbelliveau09]

Any advice would be appreciated as you clearly know what your doing and alot of it. Dm message me or reply if you have any tips separating it or making mead wine in general. New a month or 2 have 8 9 going wines and mead. Was reading drometer wrong at ffirst...:/ thought was 1.1 not 1.01 as readings go but just had to add a 0 after. . To fix numbers. Lesson learned. Newbie mistake. Tha KS again post was helpful and thorough

View attachment 645509 View attachment 645510
The alcohol will freeze last/ thaw first. What you are seeing here is an apple jack being made.Take the thawed liquid, put it back into a container and freeze and repeat until it won't freeze anymore. (PS this is an apple jac

View attachment 645509 w what
The alcohol will freeze last/ thaw first. What you are seeing here is an apple jack being made.Take the thawed liquid, put it back into a container and freeze and repeat until it won't freeze anymore. (PS this is an apple jack)

 

[amber-ale]

I tried freeze distilling some home brew mead in my home refrigerator’s freezer. Very successfull.
I found out that at a certain point the solution wouldn’t freeze anymore. The “distilled” solution was actually TOO strong and we prefer it with a bit of water still left in solution for optimal deliciousness. So I am just fine with incomplete water removal.

So now I:
1) freeze the mead in small plastic coke bottles in a normal freezer and drain out what ever is liquid through a bottle cap with small holes drilled. The flexible plastic bottle allows me to squeeze out the liquid quickly with minimal ice melt and a cleaner harvest with fewer repeats.

2) the liquid gets refrozen again and again until not much ice forms.

3) the ice portion gets shaken out into a shot glass and enjoyed as a mead “slushie”. A rare and different type of treat.

Fast, easy, nothing gets thrown out and none of my hard work/money spent on ingredients gets wasted.

 

[JP Smajda]

Any advice would be appreciated as you clearly know what your doing and alot of it. Dm message me or reply if you have any tips separating it or making mead wine in general. New a month or 2 have 8 9 going wines and mead. Was reading drometer wrong at ffirst...:/ thought was 1.1 not 1.01 as readings go but just had to add a 0 after. . To fix numbers. Lesson learned. Newbie mistake. Tha KS again post was helpful and thorough

hey, sorry for my delay in replying here. I don't have any more to add, unless you have more specific questions

 

[Sailingeric]

Thanks for bringing this one back from the dead. I have 5 gallons of apple cider in a fermenter waiting for an open keg, I may have to give this try with a 2 liter bottle's worth with your method, bring it to down to about 30% abv and see how it taste.

 

[JP Smajda]

Thanks for bringing this one back from the dead. I have 5 gallons of apple cider in a fermenter waiting for an open keg, I may have to give this try with a 2 liter bottle's worth with your method, bring it to down to about 30% abv and see how it taste.

Keep us updated!

 

[JP Smajda]

Thanks for bringing this one back from the dead. I have 5 gallons of apple cider in a fermenter waiting for an open keg, I may have to give this try with a 2 liter bottle's worth with your method, bring it to down to about 30% abv and see how it taste.

Well...? its been almost a year!

 

[Sailingeric]

It have it in my fridge aging..will report back tomorrow

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Do you have to worry about oxygen with mead when using this method?