Maybe added too much water weeks after brew day??

[dmodic]

Hi,

I am new to the forum and did my best to try and find a similar forum to negate a new post but nothing quite matched my situation. So, if I accidentally post a duplicate thread here, please forgive me.

I brewed a russian imperial stout and had an OG of 1.08, and a desired FG of 1.020. When I added to primary fermenter, I was at approximately 4.5-4.75 gallons to achieve the OG of 1.080 prior to adding yeast and sealing into primary.

After 3 days in primary, I transferred to secondary and gravity was 1.030. After 4 days in secondary, I added bourbon soaked oak chips.

At this point, my 5 gallon carboy had a substantial amount of open head space. After speaking to a more knowledgeable person than myself, I became worried about oxidation issues due to air in head space. I took a gravity reading yesterday and it was 1.030 still. So, I thought i did not have enough water. I tasted it and it was strong (oakey and bourbon wise) but more or less good.

So, after being in secondary for 8 days, I added water yesterday to top off to decrease headspace and reach a gravity closer to 1.020. I took the gravity afterwards and it was 1.015.... I tasted it and it tastes kind of watery.

If anyone could provide thoughts on if what i did was good or bad i would appreciate. Also, i was debating on making up some DME solution and adding it. But, it has been a long time since brew day (today is day 12 since brew day). Essentially, it seems my gravity is off by 0.005. Any appropriate comments would be much appreciated. Thank you everyone.

~DM

 

[eadavis80]

You certainly should NOT have transferred to secondary after 3 days in primary. The LEAST amount of time I've ever left a beer in primary is a week and most on here will leave it 2-4 easy.

 

[dmodic]

You certainly should NOT have transferred to secondary after 3 days in primary. The LEAST amount of time I've ever left a beer in primary is a week and most on here will leave it 2-4 easy.

The reason I did this was because was because major fermenting was pretty much finished and I was instructed to transfer to secondary when fermenting slows but before it finishes. Or, before final gravity was achieved.

I know the all primary vs. primary/secondary debate is very polarized and passionate. 50% will say what I did is fine and 50% will say it's not. I am more concerned about my original question regarding water, volume, and specific gravity.

 

[kh54s10]

So at day twelve it is about ready now to be transferred to secondary. 1.030 seems high, probably stalled out by transferring to secondary too soon. Reach final gravity then transfer.

It tastes kind of watery because you diluted it with the water you added. If you have too much headspace you need a smaller fermentation vessel.

Better yet, do not use a secondary. I might have done one because of the addition of the oak chips but I would have made sure the secondary vessel was small enough.

At this point leave it alone for another couple of weeks then bottle and age for 6 months to a year.

 

[kh54s10]

The reason I did this was because was because major fermenting was pretty much finished and I was instructed to transfer to secondary when fermenting slows but before it finishes. Or, before final gravity was achieved.

I know the all primary vs. primary/secondary debate is very polarized and passionate. 50% will say what I did is fine and 50% will say it's not. I am more concerned about my original question regarding water, volume, and specific gravity.

This is out dated procedure. It used to be somewhat common but is largely debunked as being a good idea.

Current practice is to reach final gravity, then transfer.

 

[whm3223]

50% will say what I did is fine and 50% will say it's not. I am more concerned about my original question regarding water, volume, and specific gravity.

Adding water after fermentation's started is usually not a good idea for a variety of reasons, the primary one being that it's very easy to infect your beer. Your hop utilization also goes out the window.

Next time a beer seems too strong, just bottle it once fermentation's over and put it in a closet. I guarantee after a few months it'll taste great.

The main point is what's done is done. Don't worry about it. If you infected it, dump it and brew again. If not, your beer might taste great.

 

[dmodic]

so I should be waiting until final gravity is reached before adding to secondary... Okay, good to know. I should also mention I added yeast energizer yesterday when I added the water.

So you would recommend leaving in current state for 2 more weeks, then bottle age for at least 6 months? I hear the stouts deserve a good aging especially with bourbon/oak to mellow out, but when is too long to store? When would a beer like this expire?

Thank you for all of the replies so far. It is much appreciated.

 

[dmodic]

Adding water after fermentation's started is usually not a good idea for a variety of reasons, the primary one being that it's very easy to infect your beer. Your hop utilization also goes out the window.

Next time a beer seems too strong, just bottle it once fermentation's over and put it in a closet. I guarantee after a few months it'll taste great.

The main point is what's done is done. Don't worry about it. If you infected it, dump it and brew again. If not, your beer might taste great.

By hop utilization, are you talking about the hops ability to act as a preservative?

 

[dmodic]

This is out dated procedure. It used to be somewhat common but is largely debunked as being a good idea.

Current practice is to reach final gravity, then transfer.

I will definitely keep that in mind for next brew. Thank you. I am finding the hardest part on getting started is that if I ask 10 people for their opinions, I will get 15 answers. Thank you for your input.

 

[kh54s10]

I will definitely keep that in mind for next brew. Thank you. I am finding the hardest part on getting started is that if I ask 10 people for their opinions, I will get 15 answers. Thank you for your input.

I hear you! Read this site a lot. You will get a bunch of answers but usually there will be a consensus. So if you see something 75-80% of the time, that is usually good advice. If you get someone who says to do something in a particular way and it goes against what others are saying you can usually ignore that advice.

 

[GHBWNY]

Not a fatal mistake, but I do agree with kh54. While the debate over primary vs. secondary has validity in both directions, either is fine if done correctly. That debate aside, you made a newbie mistake transferring too soon and that's OK. My first post on here 2.5 years ago was re: a mistake. But that's how I learned what to do right. This is the place to knock around ideas and we're all here to help each other out. Maybe FG stalled because you didn't transfer all the yeast in the process? Most leave their beer in primary 2-3 weeks until consecutive FG readings a couple days apart indicate ferm is truly done.

If you are brewing a 5 gal batch, you should be using at least a 6.5 gal fermentation vessel to allow for krausen formation. You mentioned a 4.75 gal batch in a 5 gal carboy, but still had excessive headspace? I don't get it. You should have had little to no headspace at high krausen. That said, some extra headspace during active ferm is unlikely to create an oxidation issue. There is so much foam and CO2 being formed and being pushed out, there simply is no room for oxygen to hang out, and even after it settles down, a CO2 "blanket" will cover the beer. Serious oxidation issues are usually not a problem until AFTER fermentation is complete.

Your FG maybe would have continued to drop in primary. If not, you could have considered giving the beer a stir and setting it in a slightly warmer place. And if that didn't work, you could have added a little DME. And if that didn't work, you could have re-pitched some yeast (maybe there was an issue --- temp? too little aeration? --- with the first pitch?) But try these things next time prior to being tempted to lower your FG by adding water. Let this one ride and start focusing on the next.

Welcome to the obsession!

 

[dmodic]

Not a fatal mistake, but I do agree with kh54. While the debate over primary vs. secondary has validity in both directions, either is fine if done correctly. That debate aside, you made a newbie mistake transferring too soon and that's OK. My first post on here 2.5 years ago was re: a mistake. But that's how I learned what to do right. This is the place to knock around ideas and we're all here to help each other out. Maybe FG stalled because you didn't transfer all the yeast in the process? Most leave their beer in primary 2-3 weeks until consecutive FG readings a couple days apart indicate ferm is truly done.

If you are brewing a 5 gal batch, you should be using at least a 6.5 gal fermentation vessel to allow for krausen formation. You mentioned a 4.75 gal batch in a 5 gal carboy, but still had excessive headspace? I don't get it. You should have had little to no headspace at high krausen. That said, some extra headspace during active ferm is unlikely to create an oxidation issue. There is so much foam and CO2 being formed and being pushed out, there simply is no room for oxygen to hang out, and even after it settles down, a CO2 "blanket" will cover the beer. Serious oxidation issues are usually not a problem until AFTER fermentation is complete.

Your FG maybe would have continued to drop in primary. If not, you could have considered giving the beer a stir and setting it in a slightly warmer place. And if that didn't work, you could have added a little DME. And if that didn't work, you could have re-pitched some yeast (maybe there was an issue --- temp? too little aeration? --- with the first pitch?) But try these things next time prior to being tempted to lower your FG by adding water. Let this one ride and start focusing on the next.

Welcome to the obsession!

Thanks for the response. My primary is a 6.5 gallon plastic bucket and my secondary is a 5 gallon glass carboy (i am going to verify where 5 gallons is once one of my 3 glass carboys becomes available....). I was not worried about headspace oxidation in primary but i was in secondary. And thus, my problems... I hope that by longer aging this one might turn out okay. I added some yeast energizer a couple days ago so that may help as well... Hopefully the beer will become less watery with age... Thanks again.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Firstly, with regards to transferring to secondary before or after fermentation is finished.....
If you are going to transfer to secondary, I believe doing it just before fermentation is complete (4 to 6 points off FG) gives better results because the active yeast will consume the oxygen (you will get some oxygen when transferring no matter how careful you are). However, I'm careful to bring over a bit of active yeast to prevent stalling. As you can see from the responses though, there are different schools of thought.

With regards to the watering.....
You added water to prevent oxidation; however, the water itself had a fair whack of oxygen (up to 8ppm, unless you preboiled) that will oxidise the beer. The good news is that a RIS can handle oxygen better than most other beers, and you will still make beer. The bad news is that it will be oxidised and watery. I would suggest adding a bit of DME (a few ounces would do) with a bit of fresh yeast to help clean up some of the oxygen.

 

[chickypad]

You added water to prevent oxidation; however, the water itself had a fair whack of oxygen (up to 8ppm, unless you preboiled) that will oxidise the beer. .

That was my thought too reading your post. Without getting into the debate of when or whether to secondary, I'd say we can all agree if you're going to do it make sure you can do it properly. If you don't have the right sized vessel to secondary with minimal headspace then you're better off bottling and aging that way. The only time I'd ever dilute with water is on brew day upon transfer to primary, if you overshot your OG for example. Diluting is also not the proper way to deal with a high FG, as you found out you end up diluting everything - ABV, IBU's, malt flavor, etc. Trouble shooting a stuck fermentation/high FG involves looking at things like like recipe, mash temp, yeast health, etc.