Maximum hops to still get an authentic German Pils?

[dmtaylor]

I do not read the original post that way. He asked for "authentic", yet everyone explained the typical hopping of a generic standardised pilsner as made by the larger breweries. That's not what authentic means. A product can deviate from the average and still be authentic.

Read it what ever way you like. Brew it whatever way you like. It's all fine. I'd probably drink it.

As for the definition of the word "authentic", the way I read it, definition 1.1 below seems to be the applicable one. But you can read it or interpret it any way you like of course.

 

[homebrudoc]

Tettnanger while a noble hop can be bastardized, watch your source close. One of the last few farmers in the US that grew Euro Tett went nuts, (planted hazelnuts) and pulled his Tettnanger. With the farmers not knowing which they had, I had to switch to German Tettnanger. A lot is still grown but they are mostly US Tettnanger versus Tettnanger grown in the USA, big difference. AB marketing department thought Fuggle would look bad on their label so they renamed it US Tettnanger. If you buy enough hops, you can change the name to any hop. Many pros will use fuggle and US Tett interchangeably.

Just to drag the thread out a little more and off topic a bit, I'm not sure how long you've been at this, Ted. I've been brewing for 25+ years so have bumped into the noble hop thing in the past.

There was some discussion on the old Home-brew Digest, 20+ years ago, regarding "American varieties" of noble hops. They just didn't seem to taste / smell / act the same as Continental varieties. In the early days of genetic analysis some brewing scientists got looking into the issue and published some work documenting that "American Tettnanger = British Fuggle" and "American Fuggle = German Tettnanger", genetically speaking.

There are various conspiracy theories as to why this may be the case but the conspiracy doesn't matter. The science suggests that American Tett = British Fuggles and American Fuggles = German Tett.

Hope this helps the noble hop brewers
homebrudoc

 

[lagermanted]

That is interesting, my first reaction is to rebel on the tett/fug but like most things in brewing, there are a lot of misinformation, and info that got left out. I had forgotten about the posts way back where German Tett and US Tett were considered the same. My suspicion is that you are correct and today wrong due the hop being grown is morphed to US Tettnanger due to supply of rootstock.

Now you did it, making me go brew another 2 beer. My German hops will land late this month and I want to make 3 Pils single hopped Tett, Hally Trad and Hally Mitt. I can split one and use some US Tett. There is no debate with the US Tett and UK Fuggle, that is pretty well established.

There is no debate with the US Tett and UK Fuggle, that is pretty well established.

What I know on Tett from the hop industry side. Nothing that will stand up in court, mostly conversations with farmers

• Hops 2 you in the 90's had their Tett sent to OSU when Al H was in charge with the question of US Tett or German. He is the scientist that breed the varieties Liberty, Santiam, Mt Hood, Crystal, Sterling, Ultra as noble equals. He said that it was of Swiss origin. The Swiss raised my eyebrow, but he spent a lot of time in Germany from a breeding standpoint, commissioned by the big 3 breweries, if Swiss was cheaper at the time, that is where they would have sent him. 3rd hand info with a lot of time between conversations
• In 2018 I talked to half the Oregon hop farmers and about 1/4 of Washington growers, no one could tell you if their root stock was Tettnang or US Tettnang
• On the same trip, one of the farmers who also breeds hops, knew of some that were what he called German origin. He said that the leaf is different in coloration and grows differently.
• In the 90's the farmers grew more of what they called German origin Tettnanger in Oregon.
• Rootstock available to hop farmers today is US Tettnanger. With the big push for viral free rootstock, a lot of farmers are buying their roots versus propagating them, so fields are being traded out and the old roots are disappearing as yield decreases. This is weeding out the minor variants in each hop varietal
• The older farmers that are near retirement or have, consider them different
• From a sales standpoint to the pro side, they want German Tett only. If the next batch of beer that used German Tett would solve world hunger, they would not brew it with US Fuggles, they might with US Tett and are more apt to use Santiam (Al's release to equal Tettnanger) but just as likely to NOT brew it at all

Back in the 90's, they were calling Willamette and Fuggles the same, that disappeared, but when you think that AB used Willamette and US Tettnanger they must be more similar in when used in limited amounts.

 

[stickyfinger]

Is it important to use fresh noble hops when adding them only to the boil? I know it is important to use the freshest most recent crop year hops when dry hopping. I had read, i think in Janish's IPA book, that slightly aged (still kept cold and not just open to oxygen all of the time!) hops might actually taste better after boiling/hop stand compared with the freshest of hops.

I have some Saaz from probably 2018 or maybe 2017 in my freezer. I was debating between using them in a Pils or just throwing them out and getting some newer Hall. Mitt. YVH has only the 2019 crop year Hall. Mitt. Would they still taste good if I use them only from 10-60 minutes in the boil in a Pils?

 

[Miraculix]

Sure, they might have lost a bit of aroma and a bit of alpha, but for bittering it will be still good. You just have to estimate the alpha loss to get your ibus right.

 

[lagermanted]

Both, fresh and older have merit. Start by smelling your hops. Look close for body odor, stale old cheese or gym socks. Noble hops will not have these characters unless they are getting past prime condition and moving into the lambic hop territory. It can be helpful to have a jug of parmesan cheese to compare the hops to. If you find this character group, save them for sour beer, toss or spaghetti sauce.

Here is the normal trend for Noble hops to follow when aging.

Fresh will have brighter floral notes with little or no black pepper spiciness. This is harder to get with Euro hops shipped to the US. More often found in the US grown Saaz and noble equivalents such as Liberty, Sterling, Ultra and Santiam and lesser with Mt Hood and Crystal

With older hops, the floral notes are not as bright and black pepper spiciness is greater. This is more typical of Euro hops with their warmer cold storage.

Naturally all hop will vary and we are surprised with great hops that are old, yet bright and fresh. I am still using 2015 Sorachi Ace and 2016 Sterling, both as good as current crops.

Go to work and give the hops a rub, warm them up and smell them. I like to add both older and fresher hops to my lagers, pulling both characters into my beers. I just brewed with 2018 Edelweiss, a blend of 6 lager hops. Last night was the first taste, nice black pepper spiciness, and fresh flora notes. These were stored open in my freezer for at least 1 year. It is going to be a fun Pilsner

 

[stickyfinger]

Cool, off to do a little rubbing

Both, fresh and older have merit. Start by smelling your hops. Look close for body odor, stale old cheese or gym socks. Noble hops will not have these characters unless they are getting past prime condition and moving into the lambic hop territory. It can be helpful to have a jug of parmesan cheese to compare the hops to. If you find this character group, save them for sour beer, toss or spaghetti sauce.

Here is the normal trend for Noble hops to follow when aging.

Fresh will have brighter floral notes with little or no black pepper spiciness. This is harder to get with Euro hops shipped to the US. More often found in the US grown Saaz and noble equivalents such as Liberty, Sterling, Ultra and Santiam and lesser with Mt Hood and Crystal

With older hops, the floral notes are not as bright and black pepper spiciness is greater. This is more typical of Euro hops with their warmer cold storage.

Naturally all hop will vary and we are surprised with great hops that are old, yet bright and fresh. I am still using 2015 Sorachi Ace and 2016 Sterling, both as good as current crops.

Go to work and give the hops a rub, warm them up and smell them. I like to add both older and fresher hops to my lagers, pulling both characters into my beers. I just brewed with 2018 Edelweiss, a blend of 6 lager hops. Last night was the first taste, nice black pepper spiciness, and fresh flora notes. These were stored open in my freezer for at least 1 year. It is going to be a fun Pilsner