Maximizing Efficiency when Batch Sparging

[doug293cz]

I haven't experienced a change in dead space with or without grain. But you should measure your losses in the mash, trub post boil and boil off. Then input those numbers into beersmith under equipment profiles. Once you've done that you should have some consistency. As to your efficiency you need to measure it and look at that over time. It should stabilize at "your number". Every system is different so it's tough to say how yours will perform.

Good advice.

Why are you sparging at 180? That a little hot and you run the risk of tanin extraction.

Tannin extraction requires a pH above about 6.0. Acidify your sparge water to a pH of 5.8 or less with lactic, phosphoric, etc. acid, and you won't get tannins even with boiling water.

Palmer says you'll lose .5 qts per 1lb of grain or 16 oz per lb. with 32 lbs of grain you should have lost 16x32= 512 oz or 4 gallons. So it appears that you have lost a gallon somewhere. How long did you take to drain and sparge? It should be an hour or so process. If you went quick it might have still be in the mash tun and just didn't completely drain.

Slow draining is only important for fly sparging (to avoid channeling and allow the sugar to diffuse from the grain remnants into the sparge water.) Slow draining has no benefit for batch sparging (which OP is doing) as long as the mash is stirred well after the sparge water is added.

Your sugar looks low so he mill might be the problem. Two credit card are .60ish thick. I mill at .36. And I have friends who mill below .3. I'd check that setting if possible. The other thing to consider is mash PH. You want to be between 5.1-5.5 ish. If your not in that range your conversion suffers. You might want to look at that as a potential factor.

Coarse crush is most likely the primary cause of low efficiency (conversion efficiency specifically.) pH is usually lower on the list of causes, and has less of an effect.

Brew on

 

[shorestyle]

Thought I'd chime in to answer a few questions on here. I don't batch sparge but some of my advice is still applicable. I'm also an assistant brewer at a commercial brewery.

1: Hitting a high efficiency is not at important as having a consistent efficiency and knowing how efficient your system is to be able to calculate how much grain you should be using to hit your expected gravity. My homebrewing mash efficiency is consistently in the 75-78% range. Nothing to write home about but I know exactly how much grain to use every time and always hit my expected pre boil gravity. Don't obsess over the numbers. Just be consistent.

2. You don't need a 1:1 strike water to sparge water ratio. I don't when I'm home brewing and we don't at the brewery. It won't affect your efficiency.

3. Don't rush your sparge. It's not a race. It takes time to extract those sugars.

4. Your gravity readings will be accurate at ~20 degrees for most hydrometers. Anything out of that range use the appropriate adjustments to get an accurate reading. At home I just stick a hydrometer full of wort in the freezer for 10 mins or so.

Not related to the batch sparging method at all but would like to get some feedback on the importance of a mash out when fly sparging if anyone has any input. I never mash out at home and we don't at the brewery. Efficiency is never an issue.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

1. Agreed. Although lately I've been trying to use the phrase predictable efficiency instead of consistent, as consistent would only apply to doing the same recipe repeatedly.

2. Agreed, there's very little difference in lauter efficiency for a run off ratio of 1:1 and 1:4.

3. Doesn't really apply for batch sparging. Just stir very well, then drain as fast as you want. Doesn't really matter if you drain slowly or quickly if you batch sparge.

4. I always cool my samples.

For long fly sparges, the argument is that a mashout will lock in the wort fermentability and makes sure it attenuates as desired.

 

[shorestyle]

1. Agreed. Although lately I've been trying to use the phrase predictable efficiency instead of consistent, as consistent would only apply to doing the same recipe repeatedly.

2. Agreed, there's very little difference in lauter efficiency for a run off ratio of 1:1 and 1:4.

3. Doesn't really apply for batch sparging. Just stir very well, then drain as fast as you want. Doesn't really matter if you drain slowly or quickly if you batch sparge.

4. I always cool my samples.

For long fly sparges, the argument is that a mashout will lock in the wort fermentability and makes sure it attenuates as desired.

I can see it being effective if you're lautering into a BK that isn't being heated as you're filling it.

 

[Denny]

Why are you sparging at 180? That a little hot and you run the risk of tanin extraction.

That's an old myth that has been disproven. pH is the factor to worry about in tannin extraction. Have you ever heard of decoction mashing? You boil the grain, which as we both know is a lot hotter than 180! I regularly use 190-200F water to sparge and have no tannin problems.

 

[Denny]

I indeed would like to mail down my efficiency... have already done that via BS for this last batch and will continue to.



As I mentioned earlier, I'm following the famed Dennybrew method. He states:

"6.) As the first runoff progresses, start heating your batch sparge water. In this case, we’re going to heat 5 gal. to about 185F to try to get to a grain bed temperature in the 165-168F range. "



4 gallons is what I calculated too. Again as per Denny, after vourlof:

"5.) Completely drain the mash tun as fast as your system will allow. "

I actually was a bit cautious, and only drained about half as fast as my system would allow, after first just cracking it open to see what it wanted to do.





Agreed... I did a double crush, but they wouldn't let me adjust the mill... so that's a potential problem point.

Thanks for the response.

-sc

I start out by just cracking the valve, then after a couple minutes open it up full.

Doing a double crush should theoretically eliminate crush as a factor.

 

[Denny]

Thought I'd chime in to answer a few questions on here. I don't batch sparge but some of my advice is still applicable. I'm also an assistant brewer at a commercial brewery.

1: Hitting a high efficiency is not at important as having a consistent efficiency and knowing how efficient your system is to be able to calculate how much grain you should be using to hit your expected gravity. My homebrewing mash efficiency is consistently in the 75-78% range. Nothing to write home about but I know exactly how much grain to use every time and always hit my expected pre boil gravity. Don't obsess over the numbers. Just be consistent.

2. You don't need a 1:1 strike water to sparge water ratio. I don't when I'm home brewing and we don't at the brewery. It won't affect your efficiency.

3. Don't rush your sparge. It's not a race. It takes time to extract those sugars.

4. Your gravity readings will be accurate at ~20 degrees for most hydrometers. Anything out of that range use the appropriate adjustments to get an accurate reading. At home I just stick a hydrometer full of wort in the freezer for 10 mins or so.

Not related to the batch sparging method at all but would like to get some feedback on the importance of a mash out when fly sparging if anyone has any input. I never mash out at home and we don't at the brewery. Efficiency is never an issue.

Your #3 doesn't matter in batch sparging. It's becasue you're draining, not rinsing, the sugars.

 

[bob1852]

That's an old myth that has been disproven. pH is the factor to worry about in tannin extraction. Have you ever heard of decoction mashing? You boil the grain, which as we both know is a lot hotter than 180! I regularly use 190-200F water to sparge and have no tannin problems.

You don't mash out, either, correct?

So using 190-200*F sparge water isn't a big deal if your pH remains <6, AND your mash is ~150ish because you haven't done a mash out.

IF you do a mash out (raising the temp to ~170*F), there's really no need to use ~190*F sparge water, but without the mash out, using really hot sparge water in essence is performing a mash out without the added time.

 

[Denny]

You don't mash out, either, correct?

So using 190-200*F sparge water isn't a big deal if your pH remains <6, AND your mash is ~150ish because you haven't done a mash out.

IF you do a mash out (raising the temp to ~170*F), there's really no need to use ~190*F sparge water, but without the mash out, using really hot sparge water in essence is performing a mash out without the added time.

In a way, I combine mashout with the sparge like you say. But I'm not really doing it as a mashout. There's no need for that since you get to a boil so quickly when you batch sparge. I do it to be sure I get the last little bit of conversion from my grains. Remember, to do a true mashout, you not only have to raise the temp to 170+, you need to hold it there for at least 20 min.

 

[bucketnative]

3. Don't rush your sparge. It's not a race. It takes time to extract those sugars.

I was reading through the last few pages of this thread because I have had abysmal efficiency with my first few batches of all-grain brews mashing in a 5-gal cooler and batch sparging. Last night I think I had an epiphany while cleaning my equipment.

I had mashed 1.4 qt/lb at 150 F for 1-hr, and I was targeting a 5-gal kettle volume. My ultimate target was a 4-gal ferment at OG of 1.050. What I ended up with was a 2.75-gal ferment at OG of 1.050. Awful...

I was muttering to myself about this inefficiency while cleaning. I still had some leftover sparge water in my mash tun that had been there about 2 hours. I had sparged (170 F in the grain bed) until the runnings were 1.020 (somewhere I read not to go below that), but there was probably a gal still left in the tun. I started draining it, and as the last bit ran out, I put a cup under there and grabbed a taste. It was nearly as sweet as the first runnings.

So, am I correct in thinking that I could gain a big step in efficiency by letting the sparge water sit for 30 min before draining?

OR could this be a sign that the LHBS doesn't have an optimal crush?

 

[Denny]

I was reading through the last few pages of this thread because I have had abysmal efficiency with my first few batches of all-grain brews mashing in a 5-gal cooler and batch sparging. Last night I think I had an epiphany while cleaning my equipment.

I had mashed 1.4 qt/lb at 150 F for 1-hr, and I was targeting a 5-gal kettle volume. My ultimate target was a 4-gal ferment at OG of 1.050. What I ended up with was a 2.75-gal ferment at OG of 1.050. Awful...

I was muttering to myself about this inefficiency while cleaning. I still had some leftover sparge water in my mash tun that had been there about 2 hours. I had sparged (170 F in the grain bed) until the runnings were 1.020 (somewhere I read not to go below that), but there was probably a gal still left in the tun. I started draining it, and as the last bit ran out, I put a cup under there and grabbed a taste. It was nearly as sweet as the first runnings.

So, am I correct in thinking that I could gain a big step in efficiency by letting the sparge water sit for 30 min before draining?

OR could this be a sign that the LHBS doesn't have an optimal crush?

Or a sign that you didn't get full conversion

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Run off gravity doesn't really matter for batch sparging. Sparge to your preboil volume.

Stir the crap out of the batch sparge, and run off speed doesn't matter as long as it doesn't get stuck it's fine to open it all the way.

To find out if it's conversion or lautering efficiency that's low, take a gravity reading of the first runnings.

 

[bucketnative]

Or a sign that you didn't get full conversion

True, if the sugars aren't there... you can't collect them during sparge.

I'll definitely have better notes next time (including the gravity at each run off as pricelessbrewing suggested), and I think I'll be following your method on Batch Sparging to a tee (scaled down for a 5-gal batch). Thanks.

 

[Chops1867]

Last beer I made, I used an electric hand mixer rather than a paddle to stir my mash. My efficiency went up over 10%. I will try again on my next brew and see if it increases my efficiency again.

 

[scaesare]

Responding to my own post below, now that I've done another brew with my mash tun, and put in to practice a number of the suggestions y'all made, for which I thank you.

Only did a single 5.5 gallon batch this time, and a new recipe. Changes to my process:

- Grain crush: Bought my own mill and cranked it down to 0.030" (or as I saw in one post- "crank it down so tight it scares you, and then crank it down some more!"). I could definitely tell the difference in the grain even as compared to the double-crush I did at the brew-supply last time

- Ditched the PH 5.2 Stabilizer: Most posts here say it's snake oil and just adds a lot of sodium

- Attempted some water chemistry management: Added calcium chloride to my distilled water, and acidified malt to the grist. Basically the foundation suggestion in the Water Chemistry Primer Thread. (As a note, I tested my mash output pH with a test strip and seemed to get 4.6, but I understand those aren't terribly reliable?)

- Paid strict attention to temps: Actually temps were more problematic for me this time, I suspect due to the lower mass of a single batch. But I was pretty close.

My results were much better:

- I was only about a point low with my pre-boil gravity (as compared to the recipe, I actually nailed Beersmith's estimate)

- My boil volume was spot on (although I ended up using another 3/4 gallon MORE mash water than Beermsith suggested.. I'm still not sure what's going on with tun deadspace or what)

- My OG was actually 2 points above. I attribute this to cracking my mash tun valve open after my transfer and letting it drip for 10 minutes. I also tipped my tun over and strained some more liquid out. I ended up with another ~3/8 gal that I added to the boil. I cranked up the burner and boiled off more that normal, so I made up a couple of points I believe.

All in all, Beersmith calculates a ~76% efficiency, so significantly better than my ~63% last time.

Now to see if the recipe is what I hope it will be...

Thanks again.

Thanks gents.

Now to figure out why my pre-boil gravity was 25 points below what Beersmith suggested it should have been.

-I used 42 qts of water for 32lbs of grains, or a 1.3:1 ratio.

-Heated up my mash tun with 175 degree water, let it settle to my strike temp of 168, added my grains and it settled to 155.5, and only dropped to 150 by the end of the hour

-My water was bottled water, to which I added some PH5.2 conditioner

-Double-milled my grains at LHBS to improve my crush

-I stirred vigorously when adding the grains, and every 15 minutes along the way. No dough balls.

-At the end of 60 minutes, I stirred one last time, vourlauf'd, and then drained in to my kettle, only yielding 5.5 gallons instead of the 6.5 I expected.

-Sparged with ~180 degree water, using 6.5 gals to make up for my missing volume. Stirred in the hot water, let it set a minute and then drained.


I ended up with 12gals of 1.042 wort. BS suggested 1.067 using 73% mash efficiency. Measured eff = 46%

So I'm trying to figure out what happened. Temps seemed right on.

I had hoped the double-crush would do it... I'd estimate the mill roller gap as having been 2 credit-card thicknesses.

The fact that I got 1gal less volume out of the initial mash is odd. I don't think that was a stuck manifold, as when I sparged, that extra water didn't "show up". Would 32 lbs of grains really absorb 25% more water than the calculators suggest?

Even if it did, as long as I sparged with the right amount to hit the correct volume, absorption shouldn't throw off my sugar extraction like that, right?

Is 60 mins too short for a mash of that amount of grain?

I've read that lack of calcium in the water can stifle conversion... I don't have a water profile. My buddy had pH test strips that only had a "color key" up to 4.4, but the strip color was off the end of the scale so it was above 4.4, but not sure how close to exactly 5.2...

Any other thoughts/suggestions? To have been THAT low was a bit of a bummer.

I compensated by running another gallon of left over hot sparge water thru to get every last bit of sugar I could out, and then boiling vigorously as I could, for longer than normal before starting my hop schedule. I also tossed in a bit of DME I had. The result was slightly less than planned volume, but actually exceeded my target OG gravity by 4 points... so I'll still have some good beer, just a bit less of it.

-sc

 

[mgould81]

I am hitting my mash temperature, but I am concerned that I am losing heat during my mash. How can I combat that?

 

[doug293cz]

I am hitting my mash temperature, but I am concerned that I am losing heat during my mash. How can I combat that?

Insulation. Reflectix, towels, blankets, sleeping bags, winter coats, foam (e.g. yoga mat - test for stability at mash temps.)

Brew on

 

[steveoatley]

I am hitting my mash temperature, but I am concerned that I am losing heat during my mash. How can I combat that?

I "pre Heat" my mash tun

dump 5 gal of strike water in my Igloo cooler
Let it sit for 10 minutes - to pre heat the cold mash tun ( usually 58F )
Dump that water back into my HLT, get back to temp....
Put that lid on the igloo cooler

then mash in....

Do you take the temp of your grains before mash in ?
I found that was the biggest mistake i was making to hit mash temps
was Over estimating the ambient temp in my brewery & the temp of my grain.

my 2 cents

S

 

[Denny]

I am hitting my mash temperature, but I am concerned that I am losing heat during my mash. How can I combat that?

How much heat are you losing?

 

[mgould81]

How much heat are you losing?

I'm not entirely sure. I have never actually opened up my cooler during the mash to check. Do you have a regular schedule that you check your temp during the mash?

 

[Denny]

I'm not entirely sure. I have never actually opened up my cooler during the mash to check. Do you have a regular schedule that you check your temp during the mash?

Nope. Every time you open it to check or stir, you lose heat. Once I hit mash temp, I close up the cooler and leave it for 60-90 min. I've never lost more than 2 F in that time. Sounds like you may not even have a problem. I certainly wouldn't worry about it. It's like paying interest on a debt you don't owe!

 

[vbwolpert]

I'm not entirely sure. I have never actually opened up my cooler during the mash to check. Do you have a regular schedule that you check your temp during the mash?

I always open and check my temp about half way threw 60/90 min mash. I then stir the mash a good amount. My efficiency went from low 70's to mid 80's. I heard of doing this on basic brewing radio, and I think there was one on beersmith radio. Remember mash temp I a range.

 

[vbwolpert]

I'm not entirely sure. I have never actually opened up my cooler during the mash to check. Do you have a regular schedule that you check your temp during the mash?

I always open and check my temp about half way threw 60/90 min mash. I then stir the mash a good amount. My efficiency went from low 70's to mid 80's. I heard of doing this on basic brewing radio, and I think there was one on beersmith radio. Remember mash temp is a range.

 

[Denny]

I always open and check my temp about half way threw 60/90 min mash. I then stir the mash a good amount. My efficiency went from low 70's to mid 80's. I heard of doing this on basic brewing radio, and I think there was one on beersmith radio. Remember mash temp I a range.

I don't do that, I hold my mash temp to within 1-2F, and average efficiency in the mid 80s also. Which is a way of saying you may not need to be doing that.

 

[vbwolpert]

I don't do that, I hold my mash temp to within 1-2F, and average efficiency in the mid 80s also. Which is a way of saying you may not need to be doing that.

Which Denny is this.

This is the podcast I had mentioned.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/basic-brewing-radio/id75092679?mt=2&i=366759027

 

[Denny]

Which Denny is this.

This is the podcast I had mentioned.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/basic-brewing-radio/id75092679?mt=2&i=366759027

Denny Conn. And I'm simply relating my own experience over the course of 500 batch sparge brews.

 

[bob1852]

It's of my opinion that if stirring midway thru the mash helps your efficiency, then you probably didn't stir well enough at the beginning of the mash to begin with...

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Stirring during the mash might help compensate for otherwise not ideal mash conditions. I'd rather dial in my crush/ph than deal with temp loss and extra effort babysitting my mash, but to each his own.

There's two things going that happen during the mash that can affect your mash efficiency, conversion and lautering for first run off. If you're getting poor conversion (below ~93%) then you should focus on crush/ph first. If you're getting higher lauter efficiency, then you weren't stirring before first run off and that's a separate issue.

Either way, if it works for you that's fine, but it's not necessary and you probably have other issues hiding as a result.

Edit: Didn't think of that, low conversion efficiency can also be attributed to poor dough in as AZ IPA implied.

 

[Stillraining]

I stir twice just because I like keeping busy and LOVE the smell. Rather it helps or not I have never tested that out....and dont care, its fun and I like doing it, makes me feel like the mad scientist and that Im actually doing something to make this stuff instead of the reality that I play very little role in any of it compared to our friends enzymes and yeast. Just my way of coddling them along and imparting my love on them in however small of way.. I am a romantic after all.

Carry on.

 

[Denny]

I stir twice just because I like keeping busy and LOVE the smell. Rather it helps or not I have never tested that out....and dont care, its fun and I like doing it, makes me feel like the mad scientist and that Im actually doing something to make this stuff instead of the reality that I play very little role in any of it compared to our friends enzymes and yeast. Just my way of coddling them along and imparting my love on them in however small of way.. I am a romantic after all.

Carry on.

So am I, but I'm a pragmatic romantic If it doesn't matter I don't do it and save my time and care for something that matters.