Mastering Cloning

[digdan]

So I was thinking about cloning some beers and thought of a couple things. First and foremost, I know the OG of the beer (throw it in a hydrometer) and if I knew the yeast I could get the FG. The question from this point, is how do I determine what hops, IBU, and malt profiles a beer has? I think BYO had an article before I joined the subscription.

I would really be interested in a systematic scientific way to reverse engineer top-notch craft beers.

 

[david_42]

No dice on that. It's an art form, not a science. Good example, austinhomebrew makes kits for a Rogue Mocha Porter clone. I know the grain bill is different, the hops are different and the yeast is different. But, side by side, I can't tell them apart.

Get a book on clone beers, look for clone kits and brew a lot!

 

[Rodan]

if you like belgium beer, buy "Brew Like A Monk". Not only does this book emphasize making beer as an art form (over science), but it gives some insight to what is used in many different belgium beers like Triple Karmeliet, and the processes that are used in individual breweries.

Not a clone book but if you like Belgium beers, this will "empower".

 

[Indiana Red]

So I was thinking about cloning some beers and thought of a couple things. First and foremost, I know the OG of the beer (throw it in a hydrometer) and if I knew the yeast I could get the FG. The question from this point, is how do I determine what hops, IBU, and malt profiles a beer has? I think BYO had an article before I joined the subscription.

I would really be interested in a systematic scientific way to reverse engineer top-notch craft beers.

There are a few holes in this logic as well. If you put the hydrometer in the beer, you are checking FG not OG. In order to get the OG you woul dhave to let the brewer at "X" brewing company let you take a hydrometer reading, just before he pitches his yeast.
Plus, the attenuation of the wort is not completely determined by simply the variety of yeast you use. AAMOF, many varieties will ferment down to very similar final gravitys. Flavor is a bigger reason to use one yeat over the other in my relatively limited experience.
Best luck is to go looking for a publised clone of a commercial beer you like. Enough research will turn up a lot of them, and go from there.I have done one for Bell's Expedition Stout that I am happy with and though it is by no means exact, I can tell many similarities and am pretty happy with it. Having a 22 of that tomight as a matter of fact.
Cheers

 

[boo boo]

Read Designing Great Beers by Daniels. You have a lot of research ahead of yopu
in order to find out how to clone brews. A good recipie book will have most of the common styles.

 

[Cheesefood]

So I was thinking about cloning some beers and thought of a couple things. First and foremost, I know the OG of the beer (throw it in a hydrometer) and if I knew the yeast I could get the FG. The question from this point, is how do I determine what hops, IBU, and malt profiles a beer has? I think BYO had an article before I joined the subscription.

I would really be interested in a systematic scientific way to reverse engineer top-notch craft beers.

I think the first step is to taste lots and lots of beer and take notes. Learn to tell the tastes of the different hops and combinations of hops. Learn your grains and know how each other them taste in various combinations. People with a palate sensitive enough to learn these intricacies will be able to ballpark the ingredients. From there you'd trial-and-error your way to success.

I don't think you can create a widget that will decipher the recipe. Only the mouth, nose and brain are smart enough for that. You'll then need a lot of people to do side-by-side taste tests to tell you what's different. You would be better to try to harvest yeast from your target brew rather than pick one from Wyeast or White Labs.

Now, one thing to your advantage is that a lot of craftbrewed beer lists the ingredients used.

 

[MNBugeater]

I am new to the hobby and it has definatley bitten me in the a$*@#4...

I am hooked and my bank account has proof.

I got into home brew primarily becuase i enjoy so many different kinds and Im always looking to try a different beer. I certainly have my favorites, but i think what I like most about homebrew is that its different than any of my commercial favorites. I now have homebrew favorites, that despite my best efforts are really difficult to reproduce taste for taste.

I mean if Im really 'jonesin' for a Budweiser, ill go get one.....ROFL JUST KIDDING... my favorite style right now is IPA, so ill drink my homebrew IPA or pick one of the self at the liquor store or local pub...

I figure i can go buy a commercial that i like, so ill brew something of my own doing. I guess if rather have an original than try to clone something. I do however understand it could be a challenge thing, where you want to try your master hand at replication...

MNBugeater

 

[mysterio]

I agree with boo boo, Ray Daniels' 'Designing Great Beers' is your best starting point for something like this. Get ready for a lot of experimentation and trial and error.

 

[iloman]

I think the first step is to taste lots and lots of beer and take notes. Learn to tell the tastes of the different hops and combinations of hops. Learn your grains and know how each other them taste in various combinations.

What are some of the best techniques for doing these things? I've had one guy tell me he used to grab a small handfull of the grain and chew it. I've also seen on TV where they make a hop tea. Anyone done any of these things, or others outside of the obvious making of a few brews changing a single ingredient each time?

Jason

 

[Darth Konvel]

It's a bit of a cop-out, but I'd say all the above.

One thing to keep in mind is that craft brewers are often proud of the ingredients they use and are willing to at least give some information regarding what goes into it. Check out their website, and try giving them a phone call if you find a beer you'd really like to clone. While they aren't going to hand you their recipe, they'll probably be able to help.

 

[Willie3]

I think that even production of mass quantities of alcoholic malt beverages has different flavors in different batches. It is impossible to "clone" any beer no matter where it comes from. Even trying to brew the same batch of Pale Ale in your home will come out different everytime.

If variety is the spice of life then homebrew must be life's blood.

- WW "Monk Apprentice"

 

[Cheesefood]

Agree with Darth.

Most places would probably even toss you the recipe, if it's not their "guarded one". You're not in competition with them so why do they care if you try to make their beer? Besides, everyone knows that it's the yeast that gives it the most unique flavors.

 

[tallybrewer]

....I have done one for Bell's Expedition Stout that I am happy with and though it is by no means exact, I can tell many similarities and am pretty happy with it. ...

Mind posting your recipe for the Bell's Expedition Stout? If it is not extract, I'll try to convert it. Searched for it here, but haven't found one...

Thanks!

 

[jgln]

I have never tried to clone anything in particular and never thought of how I would go about it until now. One thing I might do is pay close attention to recopies either here or the ones you would buy as a kit. Look at the ingredients of each for the beer to be made and then think of the characteristics of that beer then ask yourself if that beer is similar to what you want to clone. After that you may have to nail down what makes one special from the other (orange peel, spice, whatever) to get it more exact.

So aside from experimenting and experience that is how I would probably go. Just a thought.

 

[ILuvIPA]

hey Digdan, here's my 2 cents and my method. Before you start cloning you have to have a sufficient grip on process/technique that you can brew the same recipe with identical result. Once you can do that you should be able to develop a clone recipe. Here's my suggested process:

1) Don't just read "Designing Great Beers"/Daniels. . .You have to study the book. He's teaching a recipe formulation method and also provides style data bases that guide you to the most common ingredients for that style. Understand it at that level.

2) Check the brewery website to see what info they give (abv, ibu, hops, etc) Make detailed notes. Compare to the Daniels book.

3) Google for clone recipes for the beer you're trying to clone. Keep your wits here because you'll find some make sense and some are ridiculous (malt/hop selections.) A lot of guys say they are on a clone quest but really they are just making random beer.

4) Use a brewing software to generate your first attempt and hit the ibu, color, abv, etc. given by the brewer. Use grain/hops from "clone" recipes on-line that make sense based on what the brewery publishes about the beer.

5) Brew your target recipe and 6 weeks later do a side-by-side tasting. Pour a glass of each and make detailed tasting notes. How does your brew differ? Now pull out all your reference books and look at grain, hops, balance. Tweak your recipe in your choosen software to make corrections to taste, aroma, balance.

6) Brew it again and repeat the side-by-side in another 6 weeks. Each attempt should take you closer. If not, put cloning on hold and re-read Palmers "How to Brew." Just my opinion but before you try to start cloning you should be able to brew a recipe 3 times and have it come out identical each time. If not you don't yet have a grip on process &/or technique.

It's demanding, takes some real study. You can't just casually approach. You need a methodical approach. Ok, hope this doesn't sound like a rant - just trying to help. I strongly believe in the above steps.

newb brewer/cloner out

 

[TANSTAAFB]

+ 1 ILuvIPA, on all counts!!!

Ray's Book is awesome and you can keep going back for more...as you gain experience what he says makes more sense. He is trying to convey a lot of info--some technical, some common sense, some great lore and history--that all have a place in the process.

Many of the larger HBS's like Northern Brewer and Austin Homebrew Supply have great clone kits in extract and PM, some AG. Buy one you like that clones a commercial you can get your hands on, brew it, and compare. That will give you a great starting point.

Clone Brews is another fantastic resource dedicated to the art of cloning that has a bunch of recipes. Brew Your Own and Zymurgy magazines always publish clone recipes. This forum has TONS of clone recipes AND feedback regarding how they turn out from the original brewer and all the people who tried THEIR hand at it.

Try some SMASH brews (single malt and single hop) to get a handle on what flavor profiles different malts and hops contribute so you can recognize them in the beers you drink.

Finally, join a Homebrew club with experienced brewers who can help you on your cloning quest.

Have fun and brew often!!!

 

[Yooper]

Mind posting your recipe for the Bell's Expedition Stout? If it is not extract, I'll try to convert it. Searched for it here, but haven't found one...

Thanks!

His post was well over four years ago- I don't think you'll get much response from him!

 

[TANSTAAFB]

His post was well over four years ago- I don't think you'll get much response from him!

Wow Yooper, didn't even notice this was a very old thread that got revived! :cross:

 

[ILuvIPA]

Wow Yooper, didn't even notice this was a very old thread that got revived! :cross:

Yup, I missed that OP date as well! Wonder if digdan ever learned to clone?