Massive Strength Hard Cider

[JoeSponge]

In trying to find out what the upper limit for Lv-118 was, I tripped across a post from another universe...

High Gravity and yeast stress...

 

[BrewinJack]

Off the top of my head (thumbs being what they are), I guess 17.4% -- do you think your yeast will carry that far, Ted?

not sure, i would hope so... i knew i was heading into problems with HG in this brew... i would like to squeeze 18% out of this one but im not sure... it was kind of a Fug Around when i put in the ingredants and ended up mixing in as much as i could and hoping... this yeast is supposed to be extreamly tought and agressive, thats why i chose it for that reputation... i suppose that anything over 15% i will be happy to get as long as its not too sweet... i prefer dry cider... and this experiement was a first crack at at making a process in which a person could brew consistantly above 20%... im not there yet as is obvious... i guess i will have to keep trying... thanks for the number chrunching joe and the web sit... ran across that myself when i was worrying weather or not it would start at all, it didnt alay my fears but it is a good refrence for what im thinking... thanks

Still fermenting... still fementing, nothing out last the high ABV cider

Cheers

 

[EvilTOJ]

Awesome, nice to see your experiment is working. Keep us updated, we brewers tend to forget to put the finished process in threads like these.

 

[BrewinJack]

Awesome, nice to see your experiment is working. Keep us updated, we brewers tend to forget to put the finished process in threads like these.

nope havent forgotten, the subject code named "black gold"; named for the color of the liquid in the fermenter when the yeast was added. Has been in primary fermentation for 19 days(21 days since yeast added) ...

the first 2 days no fermenation was noted, on day three limited frementation was finally noticed. Fermentation became constant on December 2nd and that is the day i have counted fermentation from. On day 5 (december 7th) vigoris fermenation was noted and for the next 3-5 days the airlock was regularlly empited and refilled with clean water and ablow off tube was added. Fermentation steadied and with out incident for the nest 12 days. 13 days into primary fermentation the regular foam of fermentation began to disipate and rate of fermentation slowed to a much slower level. In an effort to keep fermentation as strong as possiable and as long as possiable the fermenter was insulatied and heated to a constant rate with a common heating pad and electirc blanket. Fermenter currently maintains a tempature of just over 70f degrees and fermenation has stablized and partical foam has returned to the fermenter, but not as much as was noted between days 10-11.

Things that need to be done;

check current SG. I have been putting this off because i fear even moving the fermenter or draining off a sample for testing will cause dammage to the yeast which will cause premature flameout... on another two weeks of fermentation before testing is required.

Require a glass carboy for secondary for long term fermentation and possaible bulk ageing purpose.... will actully likely bottle condition for sevral months thinking that i will rack into glass carboy and add more sugar to boost ABV in a second fermentation (this will liekly be required and difficult because i atleast expect an ABV when rected into the glass carboy of 10-15%, which if combined with any SG say over 1.050 will not likely allow fermentation to continue properly if at all) Fermentation will be continued if possiable until late feb-early march at which time reguardless of ABV the cider will be bottled and set to condition for 3 months. The tested for potablity, if applicable half the batch will be put into cericulation and the other half will be left for an additional 3 months. If not considered potable at that time besed on many factors, the cider will be left sit an addition month then test again and so on until considered potable, and then remaining stock will be slip half for drink and half for ageing an additional 3 months....

Thats the plan... right now its just a plan, but the fermentater sure smells good

Cheers

 

[blackwater]

I'm Excited about your project and totally confused. I just started a 55 gallon barrel. Filled it with 50 lbs of sugar, yeast and yeast nutrients and after 3-4 weeks it's hardly bubbling any more. Should I add sugar to get it going again or just let it be for 3 months? Can't wait to see how yours turns out!

Chris

 

[Tusch]

You should only add more sugar to get it going again if you want more alcohol. However if it truly stopped fermenting and you still have sugar left in the brew, then adding sugar will do nothing. You need to look into restarting a stuck fermentation, such as repitching with a starter, or changing the temperature or aeration, all depending on where it is in the fermentation cycle. It may just be done fermenting, and you just need to let it age and clear.

 

[blackwater]

well I guess it's time to go to the brew store and buy some tools to measure whats going on. Thanks

 

[BrewinJack]

well I guess it's time to go to the brew store and buy some tools to measure whats going on. Thanks

yes good idea

 

[lapaglia]

I'm Excited about your project and totally confused. I just started a 55 gallon barrel. Filled it with 50 lbs of sugar, yeast and yeast nutrients and after 3-4 weeks it's hardly bubbling any more. Should I add sugar to get it going again or just let it be for 3 months? Can't wait to see how yours turns out!

Chris

50 lbs of sugar in 55 gallons of liquid will give you a OG of less than 1.045. That should finish out pretty quickly. When you get your Hydrometer take a reading and let us know what it is at.
Was it water or Juice?

 

[wreckinball9]

50 lbs of sugar in 55 gallons of liquid will give you a OG of less than 1.045. That should finish out pretty quickly. When you get your Hydrometer take a reading and let us know what it is at.
Was it water or Juice?

how do you figure? thats almost a pound of sugar per gallon. i would say it would be closer to 1.80

 

[gratus fermentatio]

Jack: I'm curious as to how fermentation is effecting the flavour profile of the tea in this recipe. I've been contemplating using tea(s) in a couple recipes, but haven't seen any real info on the outcome of others yet. Also, I've used both K1-V1116 & EC-1118 yeasts in high grav. musts with success; I have a cyser aging right now with an ABV of 18.75%. The residual sugars really help to counter the alcohol burn. Regards, GF.

 

[blackwater]

50 lbs of sugar in 55 gallons of liquid will give you a OG of less than 1.045. That should finish out pretty quickly. When you get your Hydrometer take a reading and let us know what it is at.
Was it water or Juice?

Fresh Pressed apples from the orchard.
Off to the brew shop today to buy whatever you think I might need.
Please advise. Sorry to high jack your thread Jack.

Thanks,

Chris

 

[Kauai_Kahuna]

how do you figure? thats almost a pound of sugar per gallon. i would say it would be closer to 1.80

I calculate 1.084, assuming 55 gal of cider at 1.045.

 

[blackwater]

I calculate 1.084, assuming 55 gal of cider at 1.045.

The guy at the shop was guessing a reading for today at 1.001?
Not sure but I bought the Hydrometer and some stabilizer and will post my results in a couple hours. He said to stop fiddling with it and leave it alone until June when it will taste like apple juice.

 

[CBBaron]

50 lbs of sugar in 55 gallons of liquid will give you a OG of less than 1.045. That should finish out pretty quickly. When you get your Hydrometer take a reading and let us know what it is at.
Was it water or Juice?

You forgot to add the apple juice. Depending on the juice it should be in the 1.080s. Still modest for a wine yeast and should finish in a couple weeks or so. FG will probably be <0.998 in less than a month.

Craig

 

[BrewinJack]

Jack: I'm curious as to how fermentation is effecting the flavour profile of the tea in this recipe. I've been contemplating using tea(s) in a couple recipes, but haven't seen any real info on the outcome of others yet. Also, I've used both K1-V1116 & EC-1118 yeasts in high grav. musts with success; I have a cyser aging right now with an ABV of 18.75%. The residual sugars really help to counter the alcohol burn. Regards, GF.

GF, well sorry it took so long to get back to you i only check this every now and them... I used the tea for reason of nutrients and i was hopeing to get that "crisp" taste that lipton claims there tea has... I havent even tasted it, its fermenting in a five gallon glass carboy right now... I am guessing CO2 scrubbed anything out a long time ago... when i went to glass i poured in a gallon of organic apple juice which had about a pound or so of borwn sugar desolved in it... next is to get it in the 7 gallon carboy and take the gravity back up from where it bottoms out right back up to 1.030 with dextrose or some 100% fermentable sugar which wont overtax the yeast... I am thinking that a gallon of water with a moderate ammont of honey might do it to... As it is i went from 1.128 down to right around 1.000 then transfered to glass and added less a gallon of 1.070 apple juice with brown sugar and it shot right up to about 1.030 in total after i let it sit for a little bit and fermentation was going nuts again in less then 6 hours...

so

1.128 down to 1.000

Back up to 1.030 then i hope back down to 1.000 or less

After that i might take it back up to 1.040 again and let it go down again

If i do my math righ that should be around 19.5% achohal and it should be nice and firey

It will need to age for a long long while...

Cheers

 

[BrewinJack]

Fresh Pressed apples from the orchard.
Off to the brew shop today to buy whatever you think I might need.
Please advise. Sorry to high jack your thread Jack.

Thanks,

Chris

Its alright mate, i like to know whats going on and im not useing it alot so sombody should, cheers

Your gonna need that hydrometer... a testing vial... fifty pounds of sugar must have cost you a fortune... and thats alot of cider... tell us what your reading is then decided weather or not you need to keep going... are you trying to hit high ABV??? if you are then you need to check your SG and liekly if its near done then youll need to do what you did the first time again. If you just want 8 or 9% then your already pretty good... if your interested in high ABV then you might heat up some honey (about a gallon, or maybe 2 which will cost you big money as well 2gal = 24lbs) until its like really thin syrup and pour it in... it will ferment slower but the higer SG will yield better, but also change your final taste as well... if your looking for Apfelwein or cider then your on the right track as you are... another 50lbs of sugar should get you from maybe 7-9% (where you are now if your done) up to maybe 12-14%... which is quite high.... this al depends on what your first yeast was

Cheers

 

[blackwater]

Its alright mate, i like to know whats going on and im not useing it alot so sombody should, cheers

Your gonna need that hydrometer... a testing vial... fifty pounds of sugar must have cost you a fortune... and thats alot of cider... tell us what your reading is then decided weather or not you need to keep going... are you trying to hit high ABV??? if you are then you need to check your SG and liekly if its near done then youll need to do what you did the first time again. If you just want 8 or 9% then your already pretty good... if your interested in high ABV then you might heat up some honey (about a gallon, or maybe 2 which will cost you big money as well 2gal = 24lbs) until its like really thin syrup and pour it in... it will ferment slower but the higer SG will yield better, but also change your final taste as well... if your looking for Apfelwein or cider then your on the right track as you are... another 50lbs of sugar should get you from maybe 7-9% (where you are now if your done) up to maybe 12-14%... which is quite high.... this al depends on what your first yeast was

Cheers

Alright I did my research.
From the shop guy my original cider reading should have been between 1.060 and 1.075. I then added 50 lbs of white sugar ( amazingly it cost me $12 at Sam's Club). My reading today is 0.998, the top number on the hydrometer. I must say that the stuff is amazingly clear and tastes very strong alcohol wise. It doesn't taste very "nice" in terms of sweetness. It's very dry with a bite. Maybe the honey idea would sweeten it. The brew store guy says that I'm probably around 17% but I don't know. It tasted like it was high in content but I'm not sure how to do the conversion from O.G. until now.
I think I'll leave it in the barrel until June and hope for a better taste from the charred white oak barrel.

Thanks all,

Chris

 

[blackwater]

Hi,

I took another sample and the reading was the same. I'm still very unclear about the equation. Can someone elaborate for me what my reading probably would have been after I added the sugar to the cider and then what the math is if the reading now is 0.998? and what the ABV is now?

Thanks again,

Chris

 

[Tusch]

Based on Kauai's estmiated OG for that,

(1.084-.998)/.0075 = 11.4666667

So 11.5% If those numbers are accurate, I wouldn't be adding any more sugar to that, unless you stabilize and are adding sugar to sweeten it. Because that is certainly edging the line between cider and wine already.

 

[blackwater]

Based on Kauai's estmiated OG for that,

(1.084-.998)/.0075 = 11.4666667

So 11.5% If those numbers are accurate, I wouldn't be adding any more sugar to that, unless you stabilize and are adding sugar to sweeten it. Because that is certainly edging the line between cider and wine already.

Thanks for the equation! So whats the best way to make this pleasing to drink?
Leave it in the barrel to mature for 3 months? Add sugar to sweeten it? rack it in something else?

You guys rock!!

 

[Tusch]

Brewing on that scale and in barrels is way out of my league, so I have no experience. But personally I like dry ciders. So I would let it sit for a few months at least. But you have to decide how you are going to let it finish, dry, semi-sweet, sweet, still or carbonated?

I do wonder how the barrel brewing process goes for cider. Let it age in the barrel, and then rack to new carboys or do you bottle straight from the barrel? How do you judge clarity of the whole batch if you can only see your samples. I leave these questions to be answered by someone else. Also, sorry BrewinJack for the hijack (I hate bad jokes, so sorry for the jack-jack thing too)

 

[blackwater]

Thanks everyone for the help and I'm sorry to have taken over the thread. I'm moving my questions over to here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/how-finish-barrel-cider-98174/#post1069245

Thanks again and please let me know how the Power house cider comes out!!

Chris

 

[BrewinJack]

Hey guys thought i would update this 1 year after the fact.

The cider finnished at 19% abv, at that point you cant call it cider at all. I call it "I hate myself". After nearly 8 months in champagne bottles with the corks wired down I un corked the first one on new years eve with a couple of buddies. It still tasted young and was firey as hell. After half a glass each we corked it and put it back in my firdge, one of my buddies saying it reminded him of what his dad used to do with apple wine and a chest freezer. I have another 11 bottles of the stuff and 2.5 gallon in a glass carboy. I plan on forgetting about the bottles for a few years and maybe getting a oak barrel for the unbottled stuff. The color is amazing though, and it smells like dried appels and honey.


Overall the stuff was a sucess, but dont plan on drinking it anytime soon. Fermentation took over 6 months, and even 3/4 of a year later it will still singe your nose hairs. I would sugest Ed's apfelwin, if your looking to beat your liver into submission for past wrongs with fermented fruit bevrage of your choice.

Drink them in good health

 

[emr454]

I'm resurrecting an old tread here, but I have a question for you. I'm thinking of doing something similar to your Black Gold recipe, but instead adding the fermentables in stages. Did you rack the cider/wine at all during or after fermentation?

Eric

 

[BrewinJack]

I'm resurrecting an old tread here, but I have a question for you. I'm thinking of doing something similar to your Black Gold recipe, but instead adding the fermentables in stages. Did you rack the cider/wine at all during or after fermentation?

Eric

Damn, I am shocked you guys still read this. To answer your question. I never did rack. This idea was to add fermentable along with more liquid. Basically turing up the achohal slowly enough, and with more neutrients to yeast to live as long as possiable. So I started with a 5 gallon carboy and just kept going up from there. I ended with a final product of a little over 19% abv and therefore fail in my orginal. I opened a bottle on new years eve, roughly one year after starting the process. It was so firey I actully drank I actully drank it like whiskey. It was lightly carbonated and tasted mroe of achohal and honey than apples. If you want cider then i would sugest another way of doing this. The fermentation took over 6 months and required alot of attention. The end product is a beautieful golden caramel color. Heavy and aromatic. Great talking point, and if gets you snockered quick. In the end I had 12 champagne bottles filled. I still have 11. If I had a paid memebership i would post a picture. Like I said its a fun project, and a great conversation piece. Also teaches you alot about fruit and complex sugar fermentation. For a brew you will share with friends and family, that will toate your skill and might... not so much.

 

[KrisPaulk77]

+1 for the thread resurrection. I read this thread a few weeks ago and I plan on attempting a batch of this monster as well. I planned on starting with a smaller gravity cider and step it up incrementally and take the yeast as far as they will go. I don't mind investing time into a project. I've got several meads that, by the time they are ready to drink will have over a year each invested in them.
This thread is a representation of why I love homebrewing so much. You get to experiment and flex your creative muscles. Cheers BrewinJack... wish us all luck.

 

[BrewinJack]

Cheers mate, and good luck... post back let me know how it goes.

 

[notjustgc]

I'd be really interested to hear about any progress on this batch this coming new years. Cider is such an enigmatic beast and you've got one of the more interesting experiments going here.

 

[BrewinJack]

I'd be really interested to hear about any progress on this batch this coming new years. Cider is such an enigmatic beast and you've got one of the more interesting experiments going here.

Its has been in the bottle for over a year now, haven't opened it since last new years. Its clear as a bell and has a beautiful caramel color and smells amazing. Last year it was massively fiery with the ABV. If i had half a mind I would run it though a pot still and make apple mead brandy. I haven't started another experiment like this, I have gone toward the more traditional brewing of beer and cider. I have malted my own grain for my own beer, as well as using fresh picked dried hop cones. Its just so much cheaper, although apple juice was down around 3$ a gallon this year, and honey was down in price this season too. I am thinking about some simple old fashioned Irish mead as a winter project, as well as a lager beer as usual for the winter brewing season. Not gonna break my limit this year.

Cheers all