Massive Bavarian lager over pitch, and now acetaldehyde?

[djonesax]

I made two beers from a simple tried and true recipe. locally sourced pilsner malt, Hallertauer Mittelfrüh hops, Wyeast Liquid Bavarian Lager yeast. Batch number one, I made a starter, and the beer is fanatic after 3 weeks. Beer two I reused the yeast cake because the store was out of the yeast. I know it was an over pitch, but I wanted to try it and see how it would go, and I had seen that video where a guy reused his same old nasty fermenter for a year. I usually do the quick lager method so after a few days I let it warm up to 68 for a few days to finish up. Well beer number two I fermented for 3-4 days, let it warm up for a few days and then I kegged after 7 days to secondary in the keg because I am un a hurry for this one and wanted it to have time to carb while clarifying. I usually never try anything this fast and typically do two weeks in primary, and 1-2 weeks cold crash, then into the keg for carbonation.

Beer 1 is great, beer two is for sure got some acetaldehyde or something in it because it's got a tart flavor and also even after a week in the cold and gelatin 3 days ago, it's still very hazy. Its only two weeks old, but I have read plenty of posts where people are grain to glass in less time than that. The only major difference between the beers was an extra week in the fermenter and the massive over pitch on beer two. Oh, and I also accidentally over carb'd with 30 PIS for 3 days, it and now trying to degas it at little, could that be adding a tart flavor too? SMH, I am usually patient and don't have these problems.

So, I know I screwed it up, but can I save it within 5 days? lol... Maybe let it warm up for a few days to clean up more? I washed and saved the old yeast, so I could re-pitch as well but probably not in 5 days.

 

[wepeeler]

I've read it's very difficult to overpitch on the homebrew level. I think the culprit is taking it off the yeast and kegging on day 7. No way was it done. Should take 4-8 days at least for a lager to ferment out.

Acetaldehyde is nearly impossible to get rid of in packaged beer. I've let a Pilsner lager for 2 months, and it was still green apple.

 

[hotbeer]

Isn't it the yeast themselves that clean up acetaldehyde? Or is that something else.

If it is, then taking it off the yeast might be a issue as well as the shorter time to packaging/kegging. But I don't lager, so I've no experience yet with it.

 

[MaxStout]

I usually never try anything this fast and typically do two weeks in primary, and 1-2 weeks cold crash, then into the keg for carbonation.

I think the shortened fermentation is your culprit. The yeasties need more time to clean up. Go back to your tried-and-true longer ferment/cold-crash.

 

[jdauria]

Agree with the others, no way that beer had enough time on the yeast for it to clean up. I have pitched plenty of lagers on yeast cakes, doubtful you really overpitched or that was the reason why it was off.

You can try making a yeast starter (WITH NEW YEAST) and pitch that into the beer when the starter is at high krausen, and let it go for 10 days or so. The fresh yeast may kick off fermentation again and drop your beer a few more points and more importantly, if given time, may scrub out the acetaldehyde.

 

[djonesax]

Agree with the others, no way that beer had enough time on the yeast for it to clean up. I have pitched plenty of lagers on yeast cakes, doubtful you really overpitched or that was the reason why it was off.

You can try making a yeast starter (WITH NEW YEAST) and pitch that into the beer when the starter is at high krausen, and let it go for 10 days or so. The fresh yeast may kick off fermentation again and drop your beer a few more points and more importantly, if given time, may scrub out the acetaldehyde.

Thanks, I think you and everyone else are probably right. I had it a total of 7 days in the fermenter and I usually go a min of 2 weeks. I was looking at my notes and the first beer I had in the fermenter for 10 days and when I transferred it, it was also a bit cloudy still and took another 10 days to clear but it at least tasted as it should.

 

[wdavis2003]

I agree as well. I've learned my lesson on this. Give the yeast time to finish. Usually, for me, 4-5 days at pitching temperature (even if it's done in 3 days), slowly ramp to mid 60's for diacetyl rest for 5-6 days, then slowly cold crash a few degrees every 12 hours.

 

[crazyjake19]

There's zero chance you over-pitched Beer 2. Pulling it off the yeast on day 7 was a mistake.

 

[djonesax]

There's zero chance you over-pitched Beer 2. Pulling it off the yeast on day 7 was a mistake.

Thanks, yeah I won’t try that again. I will say that, the yeast must still be working, that or I’m going crazy, because whatever I was tasting before is gone now. The beer is still very cloudy even after 5 day post gelatin, but my wife and I did a blind tasting last night and neither one of us could tell the difference between the two beers.

 

[Bassman2003]

It is tough to know the exact reason. Sanitation might be at play here as well. As far as how long to leave a lager or any beer in the fermenter depends upon the yeast health and your process. For a full cake repitch at warm temps, 7 days is plenty of time to finish up a fermentation. Quick lager and 68F means it is basically an ale fermentation. That is why I suspect yeast health might be a factor here.

As far as the yeast cleaning up after itself, if terminal gravity is reached, there is not much yeast activity from then on. The cleanup happens when the yeast are still active. Sure, the yeast still do some stuff after but the numbers are way lower. You will get more mileage out of directing your process around getting the most out of the cells when they are active and then trying to keep them from going dormant with a slower ramp down.

Quick lager is popular but probably more prone to off flavors.

 

[djonesax]

It is tough to know the exact reason.

Quick lager is popular but probably more prone to off flavors.

Thanks, I used to do long lagers and then tried the quick lager method and always seem to yield good results. Typically when I’m using a new yeast pack, I’ll ferment in the 50s for a few days until it reaches around 50% attenuation, then turn off the fermentation fridge and open the door and let it gradually warm up to room temperature, which is typically between 68 and 70 in my basement.

Using this entire yeast cake, I was bubbling within a couple hours, and I’m thinking I probably hit final gravity within a day or so, because when I checked the gravity three days later, I was already sitting at 1.010, so I missed that 50%, mark when I typically start warming it up. I pitched at 68° because that’s as low as I could get it with my chiller, and set my fermentation fridge to 58°, if it fermented out in 24 hours, it may not have even reached 58 or at least not during the majority of the fermentation.

I wasn’t going to serve it, but the beer has actually been tasting better after a few days, and with my eyes closed I can’t really tell a difference anymore. It’s still very cloudy so I guess I’m just gonna have to let it cold condition for a while and hope it clears up.

I saw a video where a guy did a grain to glass lager fermented warm under pressure, in three days, and crystal clear beer without filtering. Crazy.

 

[Bobby_M]

While the yeast cake is an overpitch from a cell number perspective, they were likely pretty beat up. Without adding some nutrient with zinc and some oxygen, the ferment was likely hard on them and cleaning up wasn't in the cards.

 

[djonesax]

To provide an update, 5 or 6 days later the beer taste great and is clearing up. The two beers now are indistinguishable other than clarity.

 

[djonesax]

To provide an update, 5 or 6 days later the beer taste great and is clearing up. The two beers now are indistinguishable other than clarity.

Here is the beer today. Tastes great and looks clear.