Mash tun losing 5+degrees

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

gotbags-10

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Messages
577
Reaction score
31
Location
Indy
Over my hour rest I'm losing at least 5 degrees in my 10g Rubbermaid cooler. Generally using about 13 pounds of grain so not a lot in there. What can I do to help this out? I've seen the reflectix stuff but how much does that help as the smallest roll is 20$.
 
Yeah I have to keep a concrete block on top of my cooler lid to keep it down. The heat always wants to push the lid off. I still think some heat is leaking around it though. That's why I was wondering about the reflectix to try and keep the heat from rising up there.
 
As mentioned, pre-heat the tun. I lay a sheet of aluminum foil over my grain bed before closing the lid. It's also possible you're not achieving thorough temperature consistency throughout the mash prior to closing the lid, and thus you still have some "hot spots." If you measured one of those hot spots at the beginning, and then measured elsewhere at the end, it's possible/probable that you're getting a misleading difference. I'd be surprised if you were actually losing that much temperature during a 1 hour mash. I've mashed overnight before (8 hours) and only lost 10 degrees.
 
Yeah I preheat with 5 gal of hot water while my strike water is heating up. I have a thermometer in my mash tun. I always hit my starting mash temp and then after 10 min or so the temps starts to slowly drop.
 
Have you verified that the temp losses are occurring throughout the mash? If you are recirculating, can you maintain temps that way?.

I'm inclined to think this is more of a thermometer issue than a true heat loss issue.
 
I have that exact same cooler and find my mash generally loses about 5 or sometimes more degrees over an hour or so. Not always, but generally thats what happens. The lid fits well and I have blankets over the top. It drives me absolutely crazy.
 
Yeah sometimes I recirculate but have found a pretty big drop in efficiency so I went back to batch sparge. But that's a different story.
 
Drill the lid, pump in a can of expanding foam. You will be glad you did. Feel the mash tun when it is full. Note the sides will likely be cold and the top warm. It needs more insulation in the lid IMO. If you want to go the cheap route, wrap the tun in a heavy blanket. I had a buddy that swears by a circle of Reflectix in/under the lid, taped/velcroed to the top.
 
Get a sheet of 1 inch styrofoam , cut a couple circles the same size as the inside diameter of the tun, put them in a plastic crock-pot liner bag (food safe and heat resistant) and shove it in there so it's resting on top of the mash. I barely lose a degree doing it that way.
 
Use a smaller mash tun or mash thinner.

12lbs and grist of 1.25 qt/lb means only adding ~4 gallons of water (read alot of head space in the cooler)

Mashing at closer to full volume will offset this.

Mashing in a smaller cooler will have a similar effect but the smaller tun may not be as useful for bigger beers.

Also if your setup allows it, milling finer will allow shorter mashes with most of the chemistry occuring in the first 30 minutes or less.
 
It's sounding to me like that just a poorly made economy cooler.. I have an orange igloo cooler I bought on amazon and mine appears to have thicker insulated walls...I no longer use it but didn't have those kind of losses before my herms and then rims. That the first time I've ever heard of a drop in efficiency from recirculating.. If done right it should always increase it if anything. I'm guessing you know that though.
 
Over my hour rest I'm losing at least 5 degrees in my 10g Rubbermaid cooler. Generally using about 13 pounds of grain so not a lot in there. What can I do to help this out? I've seen the reflectix stuff but how much does that help as the smallest roll is 20$.

Things that helped out a lot when I had a cooler mash tun:

1) put a layer of aluminum foil on top of the grain bed. Helps to reflect the heat back into the grains instead of heating up the dead space in the top. The amount of dead space in the top of your mash tun really affects how much heat you can lose.
2) Use duck tape to seal the lid.

Things that made a small difference in keeping temps stable:
1) Throw a blanket over the mash tun

Things that didn't make a difference in keeping temps stable:
1) Pre-heating the mash tun. This didn't do anything. I did a batch with pre-heating the mash tun and then I did the same batch without pre-heating the mash tun, and I found out that my strike temps were only different by two degrees and did not affect the stability of the temps during the mash at all. So instead of wasting my time heating up a small amount of water on my stove top, I just increased the strike water by two degrees and it did the same thing.
 
Thanks for all the responses guys. I did try the expanding foam in the lid trick. Didn't make a difference. I think I will try some foam and maybe some foil. Yes there is a pretty good gap between the top of grain bed and lid so I will try to fill it. I will report back
 
You said it was a Rubbermaid... it's an Igloo and it does make a difference.
Insulate it better. use foil, do everything suggested to make it better or get a better cooler.
 
When you drilled a hole for the thermometer, did you encounter any foam inside the wall and what kind? Did you seal it well so no liquid can seep in there and ruin the insulation?

Chances are the lid is hollow, so as said before, fill up with foam. And cover the top of the mash with aluminium foil and/or foam discs to reduce heat loss to the headspace.

When stirring there is a lot of heat loss since the lid is off. I mash in at 4-6 degrees higher than calculated. At the end of the initial stirring I'm right at my mash temp. I lose 1-2 degrees max during the hour in a rectangular 52qt cooler, mostly in the corners. The center drops no more than 0.5-1 degree. To prevent additional heat loss never stir during the mash, let it be.
 
Yeah I preheat with 5 gal of hot water while my strike water is heating up. I have a thermometer in my mash tun. I always hit my starting mash temp and then after 10 min or so the temps starts to slowly drop.


Rather than pre heating as a separate step, try overheating your strike water by 10-15 degrees and let it sit for 10 minutes. Open cooler and allow it to fall to strike temp. Perhaps stir or add a couple ice cubes to adjust to strike temp.

Also, after mashing in, allow 5 minutes for the temp to stabilize, if your checking the temp too soon, the mash temp has not stabilized and your reading a false high temp as the grain is still heating up.
 
As with most things in brewing, your personal experience will persevere and develop patterns that work so you just do them and don't worry too much about the "why". That being said, a hollow lid versus the exact same lid filled with foam, a hollow lid is a better insulator. Air has a higher thermal resistance (harder to transfer heat) than any foam. Foam comes into play when you're trying to stop air circulation that acts as a conduit to transfer heat away from a surface. But in a sealed lid, won't make any difference.

I've used a regular boil kettle as a mash tun and lost the same or less temperature than what you've noted here. For an Igloo/Rubbermaid cooler you should have no problem. The 5 degrees is probably just the mash getting into a stable temperature after mashing in. I typically wait 5-10 minutes after mashing in to take a temperature reading. And to avoid hot pockets in the area by your mounted thermometer, you probably need to stir it a bit (I can get 5 degrees difference based on moving my thermometer around in the mash).

Blocking off the headspace in the cooler would help you lose less temperature in those first 5-10 minutes as your mash is coming to equilibrium. But as a previous poster said, just adjust your strike water temperature and don't sweat the extra help of foam in a crock pot bag.
 
That being said, a hollow lid versus the exact same lid filled with foam, a hollow lid is a better insulator. Air has a higher thermal resistance (harder to transfer heat) than any foam. Foam comes into play when you're trying to stop air circulation that acts as a conduit to transfer heat away from a surface. But in a sealed lid, won't make any difference.
If that were only true my old uninsulated walls in my house would be energy efficient instead of costing me a fortune to heat right? most foam is full of tiny sealed air pockets.. so it should therefore be a better insulator than say fiberglass? again I'm no expert but I dont think thats necessarily true either.
 
That being said, a hollow lid versus the exact same lid filled with foam, a hollow lid is a better insulator. Air has a higher thermal resistance (harder to transfer heat) than any foam. Foam comes into play when you're trying to stop air circulation that acts as a conduit to transfer heat away from a surface. But in a sealed lid, won't make any difference.

Heat conducts though the bottom skin of the lid from the mash into the airspace of the lid. Once there, it moves around through convection until it hits the top skin of the lid. Then conduction happens and it's lost to the ambient air. Foam and other insulation stops conduction by creating countless isolated air spaces. If open air spaces were better, like augiedoggy said, no one would waste money on insulation but would just caulk everything and call it a day.
 
Heat conducts though the bottom skin of the lid from the mash into the airspace of the lid. Once there, it moves around through convection until it hits the top skin of the lid. Then conduction happens and it's lost to the ambient air. Foam and other insulation stops conduction by creating countless isolated air spaces. If open air spaces were better, like augiedoggy said, no one would waste money on insulation but would just caulk everything and call it a day.

The 2 major heat transfer phenomena that are relevant here are Conduction and Convection. Conduction is the transfer of heat from one object adjacent to another. The rate of heat flow through materials is expressed as thermal conductivity values. Thermal conductivity expresses how easily heat can transfer. Stainless steel has a value around 16, plastic around 0.2, and air 0.02. So heat transfers much better through steel than through plastic, and least conductive is air. If you're unsure of this go ahead and do the Google research.

The other phenomena of Convection is the transfer of heat to an adjacent moving field- like liquid through your wort chiller or in this case the air next to your wort. There is Forced Convection which is air/liquid being pushed past an object by force like a fan or a liquid pump. And there is Free Convection which is the effect of gravity coming into play as air gets less dense and wants to move higher. This movement of air provides an amount of convective heat transfer.

Applying these principles to your cooler, with the small volume of air trapped in your lid, and the fact that it is sealed (no holes to outside air), you aren't going to have much/any Free Convection going on. So filling it with foam is pointless. As previous poster pointed out, the value of foam/fiberglass is the fact that it creates air pockets between 2 layers. The reason that is beneficial is because air conducts heat very poorly. But it also helps where you have convection because it has physical structure to it that can stop air movement. In your attic and walls of your house where you have large volumes of air and a non-sealed condition, insulation is necessary to stop the convection. But for your lid, it's pointless.

For the airspace above your mash in the cooler, although Conduction through the air is poor, you've got Free Convection to consider. The more air space, the more potential for the phenomena of heating the air closest to the liquid, this air moving towards the top, and colder air replacing it moving down. If this movement of air has the ability to go out the top and swap its warm self out for colder air outside the cooler, you also have that to worry about. For a cooler to work as a liquid dispensing system, it naturally needs to have a way for air to come in through the lid as you pour liquid out the bottom. So it will by design not be air-tight. You could duct tape around the crack, or find the designed-in air leak path and stop that (such as a groove molded into the underside of the lid). Putting something in this air space to physically stop the air movement as hot air tries to move above cold air would also negate this Free Convection. So filling the space with a foam block, Ziploc bags filled with air, sheet(s) of aluminum foil, etc. would also help.

For all the "What about this?" thoughts pending out there, I'll apply this logic to some other objects.

Why isn't the walls of the cooler filled with air instead of foam? Because air is not structural and to mold the external walls and internal walls separately and ensure they maintain a good gap all the way around is difficult. It's easier to fill it with a structural foam to keep the gap between inner layer and outer layer.

How do double-wall vacuum insulated drink containers work so well? Because they are small volumes of air trapped in an air-tight volume so there is no concern of convection and the conductive properties of air are very poor.

Why do I need insulation in my walls if air is such a good insulator? Because your walls are not air-tight and there are large volumes of air in there, so you are subject to Free Convection displacing air and then the non-airtightness pushes warm air out and replaces it with cold.
 
After reading all that has been said - I have to feel that that resting an insulation barrier on top of the mash itself is the first big step.

Additionally, I have noticed that if I stir the mash water after heating it, there is a remarkable change - almost like there is a temperature gradient within the water or the water movement around the thermometer made it read better - something. It happens every time.

I heat the water to the desired temp, stir it with a quick swish of the mash paddle and the temp changes a few degrees instantly.

The pattern for me now is to slightly overheat the water, stir, wait until the desired temp,measure the temp and then dough into a mash tun heated to 180°F. I have hit the mash temp spot on every time I do this.

I have also used a Styrofoam disk as mentioned earlier and it did great.

Additionally, The insulation at the bottom of your mash tun may be lacking. That is probably the thinnest part of the insulation. I know heat rises, but you also lose heat wherever there is a chance for a temperature gradient. Maybe rest the mash tun on another piece of foam and see if that helps?
 
I experienced that problem when mashing smaller batches. I determined that the loss was created from the larger vacant head space in the cooler. I solved my problem by laying one of these on top of the Mash. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001B16Z0G/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Are these light enough to float on top of the grain mash water? I completely agree with you on the culprit being the airspace above the grain in the cooler after a few experiences/experiments of my own and contrasting between the ability for my non-insulated steel brew pot/mash tun being able to hold temperature with a mostly full mash tun versus a half-filled cooler losing tons of heat. Some of the ideas of adding different foams and such to fill the airspace is worrisome for the chemicals in the foam that might give an undesirable "flavor profile".

I had also read in an unrelated story about a brewing practice of sprinkling some un-cracked malt on top of the mash to make a heat barrier. I don't know if this would work or not, but I liked the "non-toxic" sound of it. These microwave casserole pads sound like they'd be pretty good too, as long as they didn't sink to the bottom.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top