Mash temps?

[shelbymedic]

Trying to learn my mash temperatures better. So for an IPA like the photo attached, I should mash at 152 instead of 154? (I usually mash at 154 but once again I’m learning more and more).

 

[CascadesBrewer]

A 2 degree lower temp will maybe push your FG down a point or two, but it is not a change that you will be able to detect. Well, the guys at Brulosophy have done some mind boggling experiments that showed that people could not detect major differences in mash temp (even if they resulted in beers a full 1% ABV different). http://brulosophy.com/2018/08/13/mash-temperature-147f-64c-vs-164-73c-exbeeriment-results/

I still like to think that a mash in the 150F to 152F temp will produce a lighter body and more ABV beer (you can go in the 148F range and even lower), where a mash in the 154F to 156F will give more body and lower ABV. I am not sure there are any sugars/dextrins present in higher mash temps that we actually perceive as sweet since yeast consume those.

For me, 152F is my go to for "light", 156F for "full" and 154F for "medium"...though I am curious to to try some experiments for myself to see if I can detect a difference.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Just to follow up on my last post.

As a new all grain brewer, it is probably best to follow the guidance:

• Mashing at a lower temp (say 150F) produces a wort with more fermentable sugars (sugars that yeast will consume and turn to alcohol). This will result in a beer with a lower FG, which means it will have more alcohol. The resulting beer should have less sweetness, body/mouthfeel, and maltiness. Lower temps may require longer mash times for conversion.
• Mashing at a higher temp (say 156F) produces a wort with more unfermentable sugars/dextrins. This will result in a beer with a higher FG, which means it will have less alcohol. The resulting beers should have more sweetness, body/mouthfeel, and maltiness.
• Mashing in the middle (say 153F) produces a beer with a good compromise of both characteristics.

Much of that is proven science as mash temp does drive the fermentability of the wort and the resulting alcohol level. I have seen some discussion/debate about how mash temps actually impact characteristics like sweetness, body/mouthfeel, and maltiness.

Personally, I set my mash temps for a recipe based on the above guidelines. Say I am brewing a Porter, I will aim for the 154F to 156F range. I have never tried to brew the same Porter recipe with a 150F mash to see the difference. Even then, you would probably have to brew them at the same time and taste them side by side to really judge the impact. It is hard for me to say how much of the character in my Porter is from mash temp, vs the grain bill, vs the yeast.

 

[Wolfbayte]

Just to follow up on my last post.

As a new all grain brewer, it is probably best to follow the guidance:

• Mashing at a lower temp (say 150F) produces a wort with more fermentable sugars (sugars that yeast will consume and turn to alcohol). This will result in a beer with a lower FG, which means it will have more alcohol. The resulting beer should have less sweetness, body/mouthfeel, and maltiness. Lower temps may require longer mash times for conversion.
• Mashing at a higher temp (say 156F) produces a wort with more unfermentable sugars/dextrins. This will result in a beer with a higher FG, which means it will have less alcohol. The resulting beers should have more sweetness, body/mouthfeel, and maltiness.
• Mashing in the middle (say 153F) produces a beer with a good compromise of both characteristics.

Much of that is proven science as mash temp does drive the fermentability of the wort and the resulting alcohol level. I have seen some discussion/debate about how mash temps actually impact characteristics like sweetness, body/mouthfeel, and maltiness.

Personally, I set my mash temps for a recipe based on the above guidelines. Say I am brewing a Porter, I will aim for the 154F to 156F range. I have never tried to brew the same Porter recipe with a 150F mash to see the difference. Even then, you would probably have to brew them at the same time and taste them side by side to really judge the impact. It is hard for me to say how much of the character in my Porter is from mash temp, vs the grain bill, vs the yeast.

When you mash a light beer at 160°

 

[rburrelli]

As an added note I think it has been proven that 5.2Ph is not effective in controlling mash ph.

 

[mongoose33]

A 2 degree lower temp will maybe push your FG down a point or two, but it is not a change that you will be able to detect. Well, the guys at Brulosophy have done some mind boggling experiments that showed that people could not detect major differences in mash temp (even if they resulted in beers a full 1% ABV different). http://brulosophy.com/2018/08/13/mash-temperature-147f-64c-vs-164-73c-exbeeriment-results/

I still like to think that a mash in the 150F to 152F temp will produce a lighter body and more ABV beer (you can go in the 148F range and even lower), where a mash in the 154F to 156F will give more body and lower ABV. I am not sure there are any sugars/dextrins present in higher mash temps that we actually perceive as sweet since yeast consume those.

For me, 152F is my go to for "light", 156F for "full" and 154F for "medium"...though I am curious to to try some experiments for myself to see if I can detect a difference.

There are two things people should take with a grain of salt when looking at brulosophy results.

One is the panel. Nobody knows what the people have been drinking prior to the testing; if you're drinking IPAs prior to testing, are your taste buds able to distinguish subtle differences between beers? In many cases, probably not. One has to ask oneself why in taprooms flights are served in order from lightest to darkest, and why drinkers are encouraged to drink them from light to dark. Taste buds, that's why.

Further, to do these tests well, you need to randomize the order which tasters try these beers so there's no particular effect as to what they try first. In other words, six different orders: AAB, ABA, BAA, BBA, BAB, ABB.

Second, even assuming that the results are sound (a questionable conclusion in my opinion), we also have to realize that there is a specific recipe, yeast, and process behind these. Would the "mash temp doesn't matter much" conclusion also apply to a stout? How about an IPA? Which recipe? How big a grain bill? What yeast?

So we should be very careful applying brulosophy conclusions. As many have said, the best advice is to try those conclusions yourself and see if it matters to you. But in the end, take those conclusions with a grain of salt.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

There are two things people should take with a grain of salt when looking at brulosophy results.

Yeah, I have mixed thoughts on Brulosophy and I know that 1 experiment does not = proof.

That said, mouthfeel/body is something I have been struggling with some of my beers. My current Oatmeal Stout (5 gal batch) has 2 lbs of oat, 1 lb of wheat, was mashed around 154F, FG of 1.019, and is around 7.4%. It is not thin, but not as thick as I expected. I am wondering how much my water profile impacts some of this (fairly soft water without any additions).

I need to do a few experiments for myself, but in my experience mash temp seems to be just one of the levers that can be manipulated to impact body and mouthfeel and it might not have as much impact as I once thought.

I also wonder what impact alcohol has on body and mouthfeel. Actually a search turned up a link to a (1992/1993) article that looks interesting (I need to read it all) and talks about what I was wondering: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1993.tb01143.x

Alcohol: Ethanol, one of the principal products of yeast metabolism, is believed to contribute strongly to the body of beer. The specific gravity of the wort prior to fermentation (original gravity) determines the concentration of dissolved substances in beer, including the flavor compounds; the amount of dextrins and the level of alcohol in beer are interrelated through original gravity (and fermentable extract). According to De Clerck, however, beers of varying attenuation differ little in body; that is, the carbohydrates and the corresponding amount of ethanol derived from them contribute approximately the same amount of body.​

 

[RM-MN]

That said, mouthfeel/body is something I have been struggling with some of my beers. My current Oatmeal Stout (5 gal batch) has 2 lbs of oat, 1 lb of wheat, was mashed around 154F, FG of 1.019, and is around 7.4%. It is not thin, but not as thick as I expected. I am wondering how much my water profile impacts some of this (fairly soft water without any additions).

How long a beer, particularly a dark and/or high alcohol beer, sits before being drunk makes a difference. Many people keg their beers and start drinking as soon as they are carbonated and chilled. I've found that at least for some of my beers, giving them more time at room temp (in bottles) gains mouthfeel. No, I don't know exactly why but my robust porter went from thin and watery to full robust at about 3 months.