• Please visit and share your knowledge at our sister communities:
  • If you have not, please join our official Homebrewing Facebook Group!

    Homebrewing Facebook Group

Mash Temps

Homebrew Talk

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

MFigz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
45
Reaction score
5
I typically like to brew when nobody is home so there are no distractions at critical points. Unfortunately, I'm watching my 8 yr old daughter today and there was a "crisis" that took me away a few times during the mash. The results of her "crisis" was my mash temp spiking to 160 during the first "crisis", and then dropping to 140 during the second "crisis" I was shooting for a 150 mash, and it probably spent a good 30-40 minutes not dialed to the 150 range. The recipe calls for a 1:15 mash @ 150, I'm probably going to leave it in closer to 1:45 and make sure it stays at 150 the rest of the time. I have 2 questions:
1. Is leaving it in for longer a good idea, or does it not really matter since conversion was done at 1:15.
2. What should I expect from the temp fluctuations? I am trying for a light bodied IPA.

Thanks!
Mike
 
The majority of conversion takes place if the first part of the mash. So it really depends on how long it was stable near 150 before you saw the 160 spike.
I would suspect that you have full conversion by 1:15 so longer will not make any difference.
Since it was hot early you might get a more malty, heavier bodied IPA than intended. But it should still be good.
 
How long was it at 160? At that temp alpha amylase will work very quickly to convert, and beta amylase will be very quickly denatured.

Means you can have full conversion FAST (albeit very dextrinous, ie more unfermentable). Also means that dropping the temp may not do much since beta is already denatured, alpha is just gonna work slower. The kinds of mashes where you drop temp often need additional grain to add more enzymes back in, and are relatively archaic practices.
 
How long was it at 160? At that temp alpha amylase will work very quickly to convert, and beta amylase will be very quickly denatured.

Means you can have full conversion FAST (albeit very dextrinous, ie more unfermentable). Also means that dropping the temp may not do much since beta is already denatured, alpha is just gonna work slower. The kinds of mashes where you drop temp often need additional grain to add more enzymes back in, and are relatively achaic practices.

It slowly climbed to around 160 until I caught it and started bringing it down. It probably took close to 10 min to get from 160 to 150. If I had to guess, I would say it was 15-20 minutes between 150 and 160.

I tested with Iodine at 1:15 and it still stayed a little brown, didn't get amber until at least 1:30 if that makes a difference. I don't know if it helped but I kept it at about 147 instead of 150 once I got it stabilized. My thinking was the lower temp would hopefully offset the higher temp that I spiked at?
 
Why do you get tired of Brulosophy though? They are trying to test brewing procedures, techniques, ingredients, etc that may be outdated or not play as big a preceived role in the final product. If no one questioned the brewing process, we'd still be mashing at 5 different temps and boiling for 6 hours.

I agree that mash temp will obviously affect the hydrometer reading and ABV content but if your palate can't detect it, then maybe the whole mash temp thing is overblown. I'm not saying that you should mash a beer at 160 when it's calling for 145 but if the temp you're trying to hit is 150 and you overshoot to 155, it won't affect the overall flavor of the final product.

Granted, it was one experiment and maybe it would be more noticeable with different styles.
 
Forgive my being nihilistic, but most homebrewers process control is so sh*** that few variables will show that appreciable a difference.

With tight process control (and I don't mean expensive or technologically advanced) these variables do matter.

Now, in many cases common practices they're "disproving" have to do with stability or repeatability. Which matters less to homebrewers.

And at the end of the day, it's less Brulosophy itself, and more the inevitable poster saying "Brulosophy did an experiment showing x so it clearly doesn't matter". It's the people who take Brulosophy out of their own (admitted) context.
 
What was your grain bill? What yeast are you using? If it was mostly 2 Row it probably won’t make a bit of difference.
 
Forgive my being nihilistic, but most homebrewers process control is so sh*** that few variables will show that appreciable a difference.

With tight process control (and I don't mean expensive or technologically advanced) these variables do matter.

Now, in many cases common practices they're "disproving" have to do with stability or repeatability. Which matters less to homebrewers.

And at the end of the day, it's less Brulosophy itself, and more the inevitable poster saying "Brulosophy did an experiment showing x so it clearly doesn't matter". It's the people who take Brulosophy out of their own (admitted) context.

I agree. A poster will say I did this and was supposed to do this and someone will come up with Brulosophy did and experiment and it makes no difference.. It is becoming that someone can brew in any way they feel like it and it won't make a difference.
 
I agree. A poster will say I did this and was supposed to do this and someone will come up with Brulosophy did and experiment and it makes no difference.. It is becoming that someone can brew in any way they feel like it and it won't make a difference.

But maybe that is true? Maybe you can pretty much brew any way you feel like and it really won't make a difference? My brewing style doesn't lend itself to side by side batches and blind tastings with triangle tests, Brulosophy does these things and pretty much no one else does (I've seen a couple by BYO, anyone else?). There is empirical evidence that at least some of the Homebrew Truisms don't seem to be as iron clad as they did when I first started learning. I don't do these tests, I can't refute them and I haven't seen anyone else publishing their work that refutes them.

I do take issue with people claiming a single data point from Brulosophy is the end all be all and the matter is settled. And I cannot see how some of the differences they are testing don't come back as significant. Some of the results just boggle the mind. But I think the really valuable part of Brulosophy is in a case like this; we have (what looks like) a new brewer worried about some temp swings in the mash. We also have some evidence that it probably isn't that big of a deal, something we can point to and say, "your beer is probably going to be just fine". Or we can get down in the weeds and talk about alpha and beta amylase and how the FG and ABV will be affected and talk about mouthfeel (which may not even be effected) and residual sugars confusing the matter further.
 
And I cannot see how some of the differences they are testing don't come back as significant. Some of the results just boggle the mind.
I sometimes wonder if they would find a significant difference between Bud Light and Russian Imperial Stout.

It really all comes down to who is on their tasting panels.

Let's posit 4 broad categories of differences in beer:
1. only detectable by precision instruments
2. only detectable by brewing professionals and expert tasters
3. detectable by the average beer geek or homebrewer
4. detectable by the average person off the street

The sensitivity of an average "ExBeeriment" strikes me as somewhere between 3 and 4. Not completely useless, but certainly not definitive.
 
To the OP's point and original question, fairly well answered, allow me to just say that if you BIAB and crush fine, your conversion is done very very quickly, so @kh54s10 point is your primary answer even if std crush, mashed in cooler. You want the first 15-20m to be as stable temp as possible and as close to target temp as possible, or your sugar profile will be different than expected (more/less fermentable) as evidenced (said by @Qhrumphf) in FG/attenuation.
 
I sometimes wonder if they would find a significant difference between Bud Light and Russian Imperial Stout.

It really all comes down to who is on their tasting panels.

Let's posit 4 broad categories of differences in beer:
1. only detectable by precision instruments
2. only detectable by brewing professionals and expert tasters
3. detectable by the average beer geek or homebrewer
4. detectable by the average person off the street

The sensitivity of an average "ExBeeriment" strikes me as somewhere between 3 and 4. Not completely useless, but certainly not definitive.
Me? I'm not satisfied with less than #2 and strive for #1.

But yes, the OP will make beer. Will it be great beer or the beer the OP intended? Perhaps, perhaps not. Is this enough to "ruin" it or render it "bad beer"? Probably not.
 
To the OP's point and original question, fairly well answered, allow me to just say that if you BIAB and crush fine, your conversion is done very very quickly, so @kh54s10 point is your primary answer even if std crush, mashed in cooler. You want the first 15-20m to be as stable temp as possible and as close to target temp as possible, or your sugar profile will be different than expected (more/less fermentable) as evidenced (said by @Qhrumphf) in FG/attenuation.
+1 ^ I recirculate my mash through a rims and find most of my conversion is done in the first 15-20 mins... I pay close attention to this and average 91% efficiency this way.
 
Eh, worst case scenario your abv will just be a tad lower than the recipe would predict at a lower mash temp, but you probably won't notice a difference. Don't sweat it.
 
The Brulosophy guys just did a mash temp experiment. It seems no one can tell the difference anyway so I wouldn't sweat it too much, you'll end up with beer.

http://brulosophy.com/2018/08/13/mash-temperature-147f-64c-vs-164-73c-exbeeriment-results/

Gah.

Sometimes I get a bit tired of the Brulosophy bit.

Sensory difference? Depends on a lot of factors as to whether you'll notice (both the beer and your palate).

Measurable difference with hydrometer? ABSOLUTELY noticeable. This has a direct impact on ABV as well.

Let me note at the outset that I think it's great the Brulosophy guys are trying to scientifically examine variables in beer brewing. I think they do a pretty good job controlling variables, too. I don't see a lot in how they do the experiments that is concerning.

However--and you knew there'd be a however--there are some major flaws in how they "test" the two beers. The biggest one IMO is that they have no control over what their tasters were eating and drinking just prior to the taste test. If a bunch of them have been drinking nice and hoppy and bitter IPAs just prior to testing, how accurate is their ability to distinguish flavors? Or a stout, say. And since these taste tests are often done at a bar or a taproom, it would appear to be almost guaranteed the participants have been doing exactly that.

Further, to do a triangle test properly, you need to rotate the order in which people are presented the beers. There are six possible orders in which the beers are presented: AAB, ABA, ABB, BAA, BAB, BBA. If you have, say, 30 tasters, then five should get the first order, five the second order, and so on. The reason is to eliminate ordering effects.

Third, though this is somewhat a weaker concern, we don't know to whom the sample of tasters generalizes. Are they people who like Pilsners? Or Stout-lovers all the way?

I don't want to make this too long, but I'm a scientist by training, and when you have alternative explanations for results, it calls into question the results. I take Brulosophy articles with a boulder of salt, because despite what appears to be a very good experimental approach to producing the beers in question, they leave open questions as to the testing methodology.

***********

I recently attended an off-flavor workshop put on by a local university--done in their food-science lab. During the workshop they did a triangle test with beer that had been light-struck and intentionally left in poor conditions versus some that hadn't. Commercial beer from the same 12-pack, so it was well-controlled on the production side.

The triangle test was presented to us where we had the three samples presented to us using the six orders (AAB, etc.) above. It was well-done, IMO. I asked specifically about using people who had successfully guessed which was the odd-one-out beer to judge which they liked better, and they said..."what?" The brulosophy people, when they do have a "significant" result, have those who guessed right evaluate which they like better--despite their candid admission they couldn't tell them apart. That also is an issue with how the Brulosophy people do their tests.

Again, bully for the Brulosophy people for trying to bring objectivity to all this. But we need to recognize there are serious limitations to what they do, and not place too great an emphasis on what they found.

***********
One last thing because I'm feeling wordy today. We have one experiment using a specific yeast and a particular style with a particular grain bill, using two mash temps that are pretty wildly different. I know why--you're trying to maximize differences if there are any to see if people can perceive them.

Would the results be different with a different style, yeast, mash temps, hops, malt bill, etc. etc.? I don't know. This is why, in the end, we need to test for ourselves and determine whether it matters to us.
 
Last edited:
If you’re brewing is prone to interruptions, I would suggest hitting mash temp and wrapping your mash tun or kettle up in a blanket, or if your kettle fits in the oven stick it in a pre warmed oven....

Manually adjusting temps can be frustrating and not that effective.

Come up with a good “walk away” method. Jmo
 

Latest posts

Back
Top