Yeah, but do these or do other softwares just have a slot for mash time in the database for records purposes only, but don't actually use it to calculate increase or decrease in attenuation or FG?!
Mash Temps importance
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Yeah, but do these or do other softwares just have a slot for mash time in the database for records purposes only, but don't actually use it to calculate increase or decrease in attenuation or FG?!
VikeMan
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BrewCipher uses the mash time to calculate predicted attenuation. My understanding is that BeerSmith does also, but I'm not a user, so can't directly confirm the latter.
I use BeerSmith Mobile to calculate my recipes. At least the mobile version of BeerSmith seems to only take into account mash temp. I plugged in a 5.5 gal recipe with 12 lbs of Crisp Marris Otter and Chico yeast.
- At all mash temps and times, the OG was calculated at 1.060. I guess this makes since because it would just be based off the efficiency level that I entered.
- Changing the mash time from 20 min, to 60 min to 120 min did not change the FG for any of the mash temps.
- It seems to use a simple formula where a lower temp = lower FG
- 143F = 1.007
- 146F = 1.009
- 149F = 1.011
- 152F = 1.013
- 155F = 1.015
- 158F = 1.018
- 161F = 1.019
My guess is that very very few (we're talking maybe only one or two) softwares know enough to adjust attenuation based on mash TIME.
VikeMan
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I think you are correct. I don't know of any others, and I did try to find them, back in the day.
I have just checked Calcoliamo birra (an Android app). It appears to take into account mash times.
I have only one recipe in it. The estimate FG was 1,015 with 15', 20', 40' and 10' mashout (multi-step mash).
I doubled the times to 30', 40', 80' and 20' mashout, and the estimated final gravity became 1,011.
I have only one recipe in it. The estimate FG was 1,015 with 15', 20', 40' and 10' mashout (multi-step mash).
I doubled the times to 30', 40', 80' and 20' mashout, and the estimated final gravity became 1,011.
I understand the mentally lazy part, I design printed circuit boards, after a day dealing with lines 4 thousandths of an inch apart I like to brew, being consistent as possible but not over thinking it. I tend to do a single immersion mash using strike and grain temps to achieve 150f for cream ales, 152 for pale ales and 154 for stouts. wrap the kettle in a few of my daughters old blankets and let it ride for 60 with a stir at the 20 minute mark. generally lose only a couple degrees even when brewing in the garage at 20f. Perhaps I could do them all at 150 and not notice the difference myself but it makes me feel like a brewer and the beer tastes good.
No doubt. I know I wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but I will usually mash at something in the 148-155 range for all of my beers.
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What is everyone's thought around temperature variations after Mash in? Here is how I have been brewing single infusion mashes:
1.) I use a indirect heat mash Tun - which means I preheat the mash water around ten degrees hotter than I need using a propare burner and move it to the tun. The reason for this is the tun is a SSbrewing infusion mash tun and it is designed not to be used with direct heat. The walls are 1" thick insulation that hold heat within 1 degrees for an hour mash rest. One downside, once mash in starts I can't bring up the temp without adding water which would change the grains to water ratio (I usually want 1.5-2.0/pound of grain).
2.) Next add grains and which will also bring the temp down quickly (< 5 minutes) to the mash in temp I need. For this example let's say mash in is @ 154F
3.) After and hour mash rest the temp is using one degree lower say at 153f for this example and I do a ten minute vorlauf using a pump. This causes the temp in the Tun to decrease due to the flow through the pump and back in the tun. The temp may now be at 143f-145f.
4.) I then sparge with water at 170f into the boiling kettle.
5.) As far as extraction I usually hit preboil SG exactly or within a couple of points.
My question is around the variance in temps after mash in. It is going from 153f to 143f and then back up to 170f during the period of vorlauf through sparging.
How does this effect the final beer profile?
Thanks!
1.) I use a indirect heat mash Tun - which means I preheat the mash water around ten degrees hotter than I need using a propare burner and move it to the tun. The reason for this is the tun is a SSbrewing infusion mash tun and it is designed not to be used with direct heat. The walls are 1" thick insulation that hold heat within 1 degrees for an hour mash rest. One downside, once mash in starts I can't bring up the temp without adding water which would change the grains to water ratio (I usually want 1.5-2.0/pound of grain).
2.) Next add grains and which will also bring the temp down quickly (< 5 minutes) to the mash in temp I need. For this example let's say mash in is @ 154F
3.) After and hour mash rest the temp is using one degree lower say at 153f for this example and I do a ten minute vorlauf using a pump. This causes the temp in the Tun to decrease due to the flow through the pump and back in the tun. The temp may now be at 143f-145f.
4.) I then sparge with water at 170f into the boiling kettle.
5.) As far as extraction I usually hit preboil SG exactly or within a couple of points.
My question is around the variance in temps after mash in. It is going from 153f to 143f and then back up to 170f during the period of vorlauf through sparging.
How does this effect the final beer profile?
Thanks!
@Brewdogbrew
The phase at 170 °F is very short and has no influence on the overall mash, also because it is very close to enzyme denaturation so its effect is to stop the enzymes action.
The sparge phase is not really part of the mash schedule. It's just something that you do in order to recover some points of efficiency and to stop the work of the enzymes at a precise moment, for better repeatability.
You would immediately boil the wort after sparging, as most of us would do, so the denaturation part is not really fundamental. The only effect of sparging is not throwing away the sugar with the spent grain.
The phase at 170 °F is very short and has no influence on the overall mash, also because it is very close to enzyme denaturation so its effect is to stop the enzymes action.
The sparge phase is not really part of the mash schedule. It's just something that you do in order to recover some points of efficiency and to stop the work of the enzymes at a precise moment, for better repeatability.
You would immediately boil the wort after sparging, as most of us would do, so the denaturation part is not really fundamental. The only effect of sparging is not throwing away the sugar with the spent grain.
10_degrees_play-doh
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I can't think of any meaningful impact that would have on the beer. It does remind me of an interesting blurb I read in Drew Beechum and Denny Conn's "Experimental Homebrewing" saying recent evidence suggests sparge temperature isn't nearly as important as previously thought. Lower temperatures still absorb sugars at about the same speed as higher, and higher temperatures are unlikely to extract tannins due to the effect low pH has on tannin extraction (think decoction- which, by the way, can be a way for you to temperature correct higher, as you mentioned was a concern). That being said, I still personally aim for 170 for fear of diluting that pH buffer and try not to go much lower to shorten time to get boiling. Hot-Side-Aeration, while probably a non-issue for most homebrewers, can come into play in this post-lauter/pre-boil time. Where I have used this tidbit to my advantage has been when my grains retained more water than I expected, so I've run cool water through the grain bed to compensate to my initial boil volume.
As long as your temperatures remain in the goldilocks zone, which yours do, then variations like yours have no discernible impact.
Holden Caulfield
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Your process is similar to mine except that I use an Igloo cooler for a mashtun that loses about 2.5 degrees an hour. For all intent and purpose the 1 degree drop in temperature during your mash time will make very little difference - I doubt there is any data on this.
The 8-10 degree drop during vorlauff is really acting as just additional mash time at lower temperatures so this is really just adding a little more fermentability - again, I doubt you will find any data on this. Note, as the temperature of wort drops below 150, lautering can become more difficult.
Some other thoughts on your process.
- If lautering at below 150 is difficult for you, you may want to do a mash out by adding boiling water and raising the temperature of your wort to 168 prior to vorlaufing. This is what I do.
- Adding boiling water to you mash to raise the temperature is standard practice for many homebrewers, especially for step mashes. While it does impact mash thickness, changes in mash thickness have minimal impact on the ultimate beer profile, it does impact mash efficiency. Below is a snapshot of an analysis by Braukaiser with data backing this up. This is just something to consider if you are concerned about raising your temps with boiling water due to concerns over mash thickness changes. It is standard practice for many (including me) and any changes to mash thickness will have minimal impact on your final beer
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Thanks All - I'm glad to hear your ideas!
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