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Redpappy

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I am so not a scientist..... I do believe in the KISS system though ( Keep It Simple Stupid), Damm I love that saying....

More I read, I do kinda get it, but still get lost. So for simplicity sake, is there a place that has mash temp ranges?
I understand that at high temps create different sugars( non fermentable) than lower temps. and that at higher temps, due to the non fermentable contribute to the mouthfeel. However I get lost on what temps are acceptable... Such as if I brew a receipt that calls for 152, and I start at 154 and end at 148, will there be a problem? Or if the receipt states 156 and I end up hitting 152 after I mash in, and it drops to 146?

This is more for Learning and understanding to a small degree. It seems that every where I go, everyone starts going more into the science, at this degree this enzyme is doing this, this enzyme doing that, and I get lost.

I am bringing this up, because of my last few batches that I have done, receipt has called for 156, which (it dropped after adding my grains) and I finished dryer than expected.
 

day_trippr

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With modern malts (both species and malting techniques) a mash may have reached full conversion in as little as 20 minutes, which may make strike temperature accuracy significant wrt the split between fermentables and dextrins.

fwiw, I like this chart. It may be a bit simplistic but that's kinda the beauty of it...
1601177486332.png

[edit] Wrt getting the strike temperature nailed so your mash starts out at the desired temperature, there are a few software programs and some spreadsheets folks have cranked out that will help. I use Beersmith, which with a dialed-in equipment profile will reliably prescribe a strike volume temperature given grain and equipment temperatures that will land right on the money...

Cheers!
 
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Redpappy

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With modern malts (both species and malting techniques) a mash may have reached full conversion in as little as 20 minutes, which may make strike temperature accuracy significant wrt the split between fermentables and dextrins.

fwiw, I like this chart. It may be a bit simplistic but that's kinda the beauty of it...

Cheers!
Didn't want to show the chart again, so I did remove it. For simplicity, anything from 147 to 158 will be good?

I am planning, to pick up some iodine to check to see how my mash is going, weather I am finishing the conversion or not. I do believe that I am, since I tend to get low readings (having a brain fart/beer consumption on the terminology) for instance I was supposed to hit 1.016 and I ended up with 1.010. So i know i had more fermentable sugars than non fermentable.

I'm also guessing that I will be needing to ad a degree or to, to adjust for my grains and temp drop to reach the higher non fermentable sugars.
 

bracconiere

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I do believe in the KISS system though ( Keep It Simple Stupid)

i personaly add gluco to everything...so mash temp doesn't matter....

(having a brain fart/beer consumption on the terminology)
man you gotta put the beer down, really learn the difference between, maltose, and maltiose...oh damn, you're making my brain hurt again but you can tell...


yeast aren't smart enough to break this down....but love this..


2 NOT 3 damn it! and that carbon oxygen thingy i hear is called an ether bond i believe?

but anyway starch is huge ethers bonds of glucose, alpha clips them randomly and sometimes you get long one, beta, clips them like a buzz cut.....
 
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i personaly add gluco to everything...so mash temp doesn't matter....

man you gotta put the beer down, really learn the difference between, maltose, and maltiose...oh damn, you're making my brain hurt again but you can tell...


yeast aren't smart enough to break this down....but love this..
I am sure that I am making your brain hurt..... I am sure I hurt a lot of things...... As Stated before, science and I don't get along.... So talk greek to me some more ........... Cheers...see, can't even remember the emojis..LOL....but yet, I can build a PC.... Well, i used too... Microsoft pissed me off, so I stop playing with home PC long time ago......
 

day_trippr

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Didn't want to show the chart again, so I did remove it. For simplicity, anything from 147 to 158 will be good?
Well, those are the margins, actually. If you observe the purple "Dextrins" plot, there is a significant difference between mashing at 147 and 158°F. The former will be significantly more fermentable than the latter.

I am planning, to pick up some iodine to check to see how my mash is going, weather I am finishing the conversion or not. I do believe that I am, since I tend to get low readings (having a brain fart/beer consumption on the terminology) for instance I was supposed to hit 1.016 and I ended up with 1.010. So i know i had more fermentable sugars than non fermentable.
I agree, all else equal (ie: grain bill) with an FG in that range there's no doubt your mash ran in the highly fermentable range.

I'm also guessing that I will be needing to ad a degree or to, to adjust for my grains and temp drop to reach the higher non fermentable sugars.
That gets back to using software or spreadsheet to predict "settled" initial mash temperature using grain and equipment temperatures to determine optimal strike temperature. It's either that, or if you run a recirculating herms/rims rig, quickly adjusting temperature to get the mash on target as soon as possible.

That said...at the other end of the mash, one can extend time in the optimal Alpha range to allow further degradation of dextrins...

Cheers!
 

bracconiere

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well, starch is like long chains of those thingy with ether bonds....like proteins are amides....but ethers, alpha random chops them, beta chops them specificaly short...beta works best at 130f something or other, alpha like it a bit hotter, but you can get em both working together in the brewers window......

the trick is betaamylase get killed by hotter temps quick, so if you mash hotter, they don't want to make the wort to yeasts liking.....


edit: man LOL, i'm no scientist either....obviously...but that's what i understand of it...
 

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I was supposed to hit 1.016 and I ended up with 1.010
Next time start the mash 1 - 3 degrees higher. Your FG should end a few points higher, everything else kept the same (e.g., yeast). Also try to prevent the mash temps from dropping (too much), as that causes beta to become more active again, if it's not denatured enough.
I saw one of my brew friends (using a 2-kettle mash recirculation system) starting the mash a few (4-6F) degrees higher, denaturing some of that beta early on, then after 5-15 (?) minutes, let it settle at his intended mash temps. I've adapted that strategy too, using my converted cooler, no recirculation. My FG has become more controllable that way.

Beta can be both, your friend, making well-fermentable beer where desired, and your nemesis, leaving you with lower gravity and mouthfeel than intended. Higher mash temps reduce mostly Beta activity. The graph shows that.
 
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Redpappy

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As I am diving into this more and more, and from the feed back that I am getting. I have the a strong feeling that I need to get some more insulation for my kettle.... And pay more attention to temps to get the attended flavor from my beers.

As of right now, I am a EBIAB. I do wrap my kettle in a blanket. However due to the drop, I believe I do need to get some better insulation. Before I add my grains, I do stir the water to try to get an even temp. I have been giving my temp probe the benefit of the doubt and trust, till my last brew... which brought up some concerns that I will address on my next brew day. I would have to say that I have the bare bones, i.e.... kettle, heating element, and thats it. I have no pumps for circulations.

edit... Will shoot for a higher temp at the beginning to see where it brings me to the FG. Since I went Electric, was hoping the element would control it better, but not having much luck (probably because I don't recirculate)
 

bracconiere

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man he said he wanted simple....

their like protein long chains of amides...that chop long chains of ethers apart!! some of the amides thingy's chop them shorter, and like to be cool....but like in acidic conditions their like a wizard of oz witch, that h2o, and H+ stuff....they just don't want to hold together.....


(i should cross quote my own post into mindless mumbling....)
 
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Redpappy

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man he said he wanted simple....

their like protein long chains of amides...that chop long chains of ethers apart!! some of the amides thingy's chop them shorter, and like to be cool....but like in acidic conditions their like a wizard of oz witch, that h2o, and H+ stuff....they just don't want to hold together.....


(i should cross quote my own post into mindless mumbling....)
Maybe just having another HB or 2 will do the trick?
 

bracconiere

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Maybe just having another HB or 2 will do the trick?

you really want me to google a chart on attenuation? alpha, beta amylase denaturation temps, and times? my glass is almost empty though! thanks for the tip!

edit: and man reading my post...i like small talk, give me a second to try out what they taught me in grade school and simplify.....
 
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Redpappy

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you really want me to google a chart on attenuation? alpha, beta amylase denaturation temps, and times? my glass is almost empty though! thanks for the tip!
I just thought I would help remind you that you needed a refill :) . Between you and IslandLizard I am realizing a 2 degree difference does make a difference. So I need perfect my work... but in the mean time, I will still enjoy my HB..
 

bracconiere

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I just thought I would help remind you that you needed a refill :) . Between you and IslandLizard I am realizing a 2 degree difference does make a difference. So I need perfect my work... but in the mean time, I will still enjoy my HB..

yeah 2 degrees...i'd almost have to figure out how fast that means molucules are rotating.....for A SIMPLE question, it's getting like a quadratic equation.....
 

bracconiere

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i have read how many minutes beta amylase lasts, and alpha amylase at what temps, but i just tried to google it...and realized it's my bed time, good night! and happy HBT! you know i am actually trying to help...if i could ever get a sticky here, it'd be an honor better then a blue ribbon!
 
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Redpappy

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as the late hour comes, I understand, it 5 hours past my bedtime, however the HB just keeps me going. Hopefully the happy dreams will come visit you as you rest. If not, then hopefully they will visit the next night.
 

IslandLizard

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Between you and IslandLizard I am realizing a 2 degree difference does make a difference.
Keeping it 2 degrees higher for the length of the mash that makes the difference!
If you let it drop those 2 degrees that unfermentability "gain" is easily lost. Beta will nullify it during the next 20-30 minutes while you're lautering and sparging. In that light, doing a thorough mashout becomes suddenly more important to prevent that. Or denature enough of the Beta beforehand by starting the mash a few degrees higher, before settling on your target mash temp.
 

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As of right now, I am a EBIAB. I do wrap my kettle in a blanket. However due to the drop, I believe I do need to get some better insulation. Before I add my grains, I do stir the water to try to get an even temp. I have been giving my temp probe the benefit of the doubt and trust, till my last brew... which brought up some concerns that I will address on my next brew day. I would have to say that I have the bare bones, i.e.... kettle, heating element, and thats it. I have no pumps for circulations.
I also have a simple bare bones system, started with biab but hung it from a windscreen wiper motor bolted to the lid with a frame connected to the shaft underneath, I use this to keep the water circulating and even out the temperature which I control via a 25A solid state relay and temperature controller. I have since upgraded to a basket which is easier to work with. my results are therefore more reproducible.
 

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As of right now, I am a EBIAB. I do wrap my kettle in a blanket. However due to the drop, I believe I do need to get some better insulation.
I mash in an Igloo round cooler but I recommend using Reflectix, which can be found in your local big box hardware store. It has made all the difference for me to get a good boil as I use a 1800W induction top for 6.5 gallons. Since the photo, I’ve added more around the exposed area at the top of the kettle. I cut it to the size of my kettle, using aluminum foil tape found near the Reflectix at the hardware store to assemble it and give it smooth edges.
 

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Holden Caulfield

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I am so not a scientist..... I do believe in the KISS system though ( Keep It Simple Stupid), Damm I love that saying....

More I read, I do kinda get it, but still get lost. So for simplicity sake, is there a place that has mash temp ranges?
I understand that at high temps create different sugars( non fermentable) than lower temps. and that at higher temps, due to the non fermentable contribute to the mouthfeel. However I get lost on what temps are acceptable... Such as if I brew a receipt that calls for 152, and I start at 154 and end at 148, will there be a problem? Or if the receipt states 156 and I end up hitting 152 after I mash in, and it drops to 146?

This is more for Learning and understanding to a small degree. It seems that every where I go, everyone starts going more into the science, at this degree this enzyme is doing this, this enzyme doing that, and I get lost.

I am bringing this up, because of my last few batches that I have done, receipt has called for 156, which (it dropped after adding my grains) and I finished dryer than expected.
In the spirit of KISS...
  • Per the chart Daytripper provided, single infusion mashes can be performed between 147 - 158. You can even go lower or higher and still get starch conversion but fermentability starts to tail off tremendously at the high end, and mash time must be extended on the low end creating highly fermentable worts that become very thin.
  • At the lower end you will get more fermentable wort (dryer beer, lower FG beer)
  • At the higher end you will get less fermentable wort (fuller, not necessarily sweeter, higher FG beer)
Below is a chart (which isn't too simple) that connects attenuation (fermentability) to mash temp. Based on this you could infer the following mash temp ranges and beer profiles...
  • 145 - 148, Very dry, low FG (with longer mash time required to ensure starch conversion)
  • 149 - 152, Dry-balanced, low-middle FG
  • 153 - 155, Balanced-full, middle FG
  • 155 - 158, Full, high FG
Additional ranges can be added for more granularity. Furthermore, as these are my inferences, others may wish to make adjustments.

Note for below 149 mashes, mash time should be increased to ensure complete starch conversion. Also, since the Beta Amylase is not denatured at these lower mash temps, it will keep on working, creating highly fermentable worts. I believe the chart below may have been based on 60 minute mashes only.

Here is a link to a Brulosophy exbeeriment that demonstrates what happens at the very extremes of mash temp.

Hope this helps.


1601222376684.png
 

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McKnuckle

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If you want a KISS approach, here's one:

If your goal is low fermentability (FG ends up higher):
If your setup doesn't lose more than a couple of degrees during the mash, start at 156F.
If your setup loses heat readily, start at 160F.
Mash for 45-60 minutes.

If your goal is high fermentability (FG ends up lower):
If your setup doesn't lose more than a couple of degrees during the mash, start at 147F.
If your setup loses heat readily, start at 150F.
Mash for 75-90 minutes.

Again, this is not scientific or inclusive of all the many nuances or goals in mashing - it's a "simple" approach.
 

seatazzz

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What McKnuckle said. If I'm going for a more fermentable wort, I aim for a starting mash temp of 150-152, and let it sit undisturbed for 60 minutes. After that I give it a stir and take a temperature reading, it's usually down to 150ish by then, and I start my pump to recirculate for 30 minutes (yes a long lauter but it works). At the end of that 30 minutes I'm maybe down to 146-148, right in the target zone. For porters, stouts, and bigger beers I aim for 154-156, and do the same 60 minute/stir/recirculate for 30. I haven't measured my efficiency in a long time but I get good beers out of this method. FWIW, I find if I start playing with numbers and calculations and math, I tend to focus too much on what results I "should" get. Fretting about numbers and math, other than what is absolutely necessary, takes some of the fun out of it for me. YMMV.
 

seatazzz

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i like OCD! it's fun! :D
I do as well but about other things. Ferinstance you didn't capitalize your "I" and stuff like that drives me crazy. Also people who don't make paper packets perfectly straight before stapling. And filing things wrong. And using words wrong. Even my darling husband, who I will love forever, tells our dogs to "go lay down" and it's all I can do to not shout "it's LIE down you cretin!!!". Maybe OCD isn't as much fun as I thought it was.
 

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I do as well but about other things. Ferinstance you didn't capitalize your "I" and stuff like that drives me crazy. Also people who don't make paper packets perfectly straight before stapling. And filing things wrong. And using words wrong. Even my darling husband, who I will love forever, tells our dogs to "go lay down" and it's all I can do to not shout "it's LIE down you cretin!!!". Maybe OCD isn't as much fun as I thought it was.
you realize the letters OCD need to be alphabetized don’t you?
 

william_shakes_beer

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Thanks for the technical details. I just concluded a thread on a stalled fermentation on the fermentation and yeast forum that ended up being a mash temp issue. While I am not a scientist, brew science and I do get along. I have never gotten tied up in the details of mash temps and enzyme action until my last batch, where i doughed in at 172 and hung there for an unfortunate period of time. The target mash temps that always stuck in my mind was 155F to 165F. From the table in the OP I need to rethink those targets. Does the source of that table also have a denaturing time and temp curve? It would be nice to also see a "never exceed" temp to help bracket the range. A denaturing temp of 175F has always stuck in my mind, but I'm rethinking that given that according to brewers friend, in order to acheive a stable mash temp of 165 you need to dough in at 172.5.
 

bracconiere

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i've always heard the brewers window is 145f-158f? lower favors beta, smaller sugars, higher favors "alpha" larger sugars?


not sure how you got 155-165? i belive a mash-out is done at 168? so maybe a little dyslexia? :mug:
 

william_shakes_beer

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I took a hiatus of several years from brewing. I'm getting back into it now. As I said, I did a batch at those temps and was disappointed with stalled fermentation that likely resulted from a minimally fermentable wort. That's why I'm questioning my process, and am looking for denaturing data.
 

bracconiere

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that's what i always thought the reason they curve was?

edit: are you looking for a time? how long at what temp? i can see from that they're all gone at 173f?
 

dmtaylor

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If you want a KISS approach, here's one:

If your goal is low fermentability (FG ends up higher):
If your setup doesn't lose more than a couple of degrees during the mash, start at 156F.
If your setup loses heat readily, start at 160F.
Mash for 45-60 minutes.

If your goal is high fermentability (FG ends up lower):
If your setup doesn't lose more than a couple of degrees during the mash, start at 147F.
If your setup loses heat readily, start at 150F.
Mash for 75-90 minutes.

Again, this is not scientific or inclusive of all the many nuances or goals in mashing - it's a "simple" approach.
Ditto, except for low fermentability I would cut the time back to 40 minutes.

And I'll add that most of the time, I just mash at 149-152F for 45 minutes and call it a day. This results in moderate fermentability. I often start my mash closer to 154F then let it fall to the mid 140s actually. Works fine. THAT is KISS.
 

chaps

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As I am diving into this more and more, and from the feed back that I am getting. I have the a strong feeling that I need to get some more insulation for my kettle.... And pay more attention to temps to get the attended flavor from my beers.

As of right now, I am a EBIAB. I do wrap my kettle in a blanket. However due to the drop, I believe I do need to get some better insulation. Before I add my grains, I do stir the water to try to get an even temp. I have been giving my temp probe the benefit of the doubt and trust, till my last brew... which brought up some concerns that I will address on my next brew day. I would have to say that I have the bare bones, i.e.... kettle, heating element, and thats it. I have no pumps for circulations.

edit... Will shoot for a higher temp at the beginning to see where it brings me to the FG. Since I went Electric, was hoping the element would control it better, but not having much luck (probably because I don't recirculate)
I also went electricfor a variety of reasons and I can tell you that recirculating is absolutely key. Most of the electric kettles like the the M+B are tall and skinny so the temp difference between top and bottom can be upwards of 10 degrees. No bueno. You don’t need a super expensive riptide pump either. I got a super cheap aquatic pump on Amazon and swapped out the tubbing for food grade and it made a ton of difference.
Also you should investigate “strike temp”. If you are aiming for a mash of 155F don’t put your gains in at the temp. Logic will tell you the grains will immediately drop the temp of the water. I aim for a strike temp about 5F above whatever my goal is. Obviously adjust for your situation.
 

william_shakes_beer

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The "typical" range assumes strike water heated at a higher temp to allow for heat reduction resulting from introduction of cooler grains. While I usually mash at a single temp I understand that temp is a compromise between ideal Alpha amylase range and Beta amylase range ( as illustrated in the chart in post #2)

The usual brewing wisdom is that all enzymes are denatured at 175F.

What I am looking for is more granularity on the usual brewing wisdom regarding denaturing. Similar to the chart in post 2 describing the active temp ranges for converting starch to sugar, is there any granularity on the actual time and temp of denaturing Alpha amylase an Beta amylase? A few questions to focus my query:

1. Are both enzymes denatured at the same temp range? If not, what is the temp range for each?
2. How long does denaturing take? Is the time related to temperature?
4. Does the Alpha(higher temp) active range denature Beta?
4. Does the action of Alpha prepare the starches to be more readily converted by Beta, or could a mash schedule focusing on optimizing beta only result in a thorough ferment?
 

dmtaylor

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is there any granularity on the actual time and temp of denaturing Alpha amylase an Beta amylase? A few questions to focus my query:

1. Are both enzymes denatured at the same temp range? If not, what is the temp range for each?
2. How long does denaturing take? Is the time related to temperature?
4. Does the Alpha(higher temp) active range denature Beta?
4. Does the action of Alpha prepare the starches to be more readily converted by Beta, or could a mash schedule focusing on optimizing beta only result in a thorough ferment?
These are great questions. Frankly I cannot provide specific answers, so I will continue to instead answer in a more general and figurative manner:

I like to imagine the beta and alpha amylase as different kinds of machines. They each function in quite a different manner, but each have a speed dial which is temperature. Now imagine thousands of each type of machine running all together at the same time and the same temperature. Since there is only one control knob for all of them, the betas will always be running a lot faster than the alphas so they'll tend to wear out much quicker. As we turn the dial higher (temperature), both types of machines run faster and faster at breaking down starches in different ways, until at some point they get old and fail. However, since there are thousands of each, some will fail early, and some will hang on for much longer before they fail, sort of a random bell curve on each (as you see pictured above!). The beta machine is a really effective one, might even be our favorite; however, it's also much more fragile and will tend to break quicker (i.e., at more moderate temperatures). The alpha machine meanwhile is generally much more robust, but also doesn't always give us exactly the results we want either if all the beta were to fail early. So, what we really want is for both types of machines to both work together, the alpha product constantly being refined by the beta, without breaking the beta too quickly by running it too fast, but also not turning the knob too far left keeping the alpha from helping out as much. A happy medium is generally desired.

Both beta and alpha are constantly being denatured at any warm temperature, but beta will always be running much harder and wearing out quicker at any given temperature, because the alpha just happens to be built stronger. Some alpha will fail at lower temperatures, but generally most alpha will hang on for a longer time than beta. And at relatively high temperatures, most of the beta is certain to fail pretty quickly (I'm not exactly sure how long, could be 5 minutes, 10, 15, 20, somewhere around there, but depending on exactly how hot for how long -- yeah there must be data out there but personally I don't know it).

If we select a mash favoring the alpha alone, or especially near the high end for the alpha, then the beta will still provide assistance, but most will denature in a very short time (probably a few minutes like I said above).

I think if you had a sufficiently long mash time (several hours) for either the low end for beta or the high end for alpha, the exact temperatures and enzymes involved become less and less important. If you mashed say for 8-10 hours like an overnight mash, if the temperature was very low, the beta could do a nice job for you unless it denatures eventually anyway, but the alpha will chug along slowly even at lower temperatures and just chew right through everything given enough time I think. Meanwhile we do need to take care not to take the mash too hot say at 165-168 F where the alpha might become denatured too quickly leaving us with a dextrinous mess that is not very fermentable even if left to mash for hours on end. But any lower than that, say at 160-162 F, I think enough alpha will survive to make a highly fermentable wort, at least until such time that it too all denatures.

Wish I had better specifics, but regardless, I hope perhaps this discussion will help somebody understand the workings of these little machines a little better. Bottom line: At low temperature, they don't denature much and just chug along slowly, but given enough time (many hours) will still do a very nice job for us. At high temps, alpha probably can do a reasonably good job, maybe even great, if they don't denature too fast. And anywhere in between, that's just Goldilocks, keep it there for as short or as long a time as you like really, the longer you keep it there the more fermentable the wort will become.

Finally I should add: In my opinion, mash TIME seems to be FAR more important than specific mash temperature, as long as we keep the mash temperature anywhere within the Goldilocks zone. If I want a fuller bodied beer, personally I mash for a shorter TIME, say only 35-40 minutes, at any reasonable temperature. And personally if I want a very dry beer, then I'll mash not just at 147 F for 60 minutes, but go 90 minutes or even 120 minutes or more, then it will turn out very dry indeed. And even if I were to mash warmer at say 155 F or something like that, I'll bet after 90-120 minutes, I'll still get a very dry beer indeed because the alpha will be working so fast, chainsawing the bajeezus out of the starches and dextrins for a nice long time.

Not sure if this helps a lot, but there you have it, for whatever it's worth. Cheers all.
 

IslandLizard

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I must have an earlier edition because it doesn't have a chapter under that heading. I read the version you linked online. Thank You.

It's kind of frustrating that all the texts seem to ignore the temp and time at which the enzymes denature. there is one seemingly arbitrary comment that names denaturing as ...

"The temperature most often quoted for mashing is about 153°F. This is a compromise between the two temperatures that the two enzymes favor. Alpha works best at 154-162°F, while beta is denatured (the molecule falls apart) at that temperature, working best between 131-150°F." The Starch Conversion/Saccharification Rest - How to Brew

The compromise temp recommended by Palmer is 153F. According to brewers friend, if I have 6.5 gallons of strike water and 12# of malt at 68F, I need to heat the strike water to 160.9F. that seems dangerously close to the denaturing temp of beta amylase of 154-162.

From the Palmer read, it appears alpha amylase creates more "ends" of the starch molecule, beta amylase can only work on the ends. Therefore both need to act. Alpha first to create more ends and beta to complete the breaking of the starch into simple sugars that are fermentable. That aligns with my usual practice of starting at the higher temperature and allowing the mash temp to fall through the beta amykase range during the hour long mash. Of course, if the beta has already been denatured that temp range is now wasted time

BTW, I do a single temp mash. dough in, stir to the target temp and and then cover it for an hour. My sense is 160F strike is too hot to avoid the risk or denaturing.

For those that do multi step mashes, do you work from low to high temp or high to low?
 
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