Mash Temp Question

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Doing BIAB and have a basic question.
If recipe calls for strike temp of 162 F and what theoretically happens in these 3 scenarios?
1) Put in grains at 162F and keep at 162F for 1 hr
2) Put in grains at 162F and then place in oven for insulation for 90 min where the final temp is 154F.
3) Put in grains at 162F and then turn off heat, wrap in blanket. Final temp after 90 min is 146F.

Thank you. I thought I read in scenario#1 that there will be less fermentable sugars extracted. #2 is the ideal. #3 probably didn't get as much extracted due to lower temps?
 
The temperature that matters is the one that the mash settles to once the grain is added. This is the temperature where the enzymes are active and working at converting the starch to sugars. If a strike water temperature is given in a recipe then it is an estimate only and would depend on the temperature of the grain (room temperature). You can calculate what strike water temperature you need by using a calculator or by experience of your brew setup.

For single temperature infusion mashing it is preferable to insulate the mash to maintain a consistent temperature. It seems like option 2 is the one you want, although some may argue if 90mins is necessary. Typically conversion is complete by 60mins, sometimes sooner.
 
Generally speaking, the mash should be in the range of 145F to 158F. The lower the temperature is in this range, the more fermentable sugars are produced. The closer to 158F your mash gets, more and more sugars which cannot be fermented by yeast are produced and will add body and sweetness to the beer. Conversion above 158F or below 145F is possible (enzymes don't just switch on and off completely outside of that range) but it will be considerably less productive.

Also, just to be sure we're on the same page:
Strike temperature is the temp of the water before you add it to the mash tun / grain.
After adding the strike water, the temp will immediately drop quite a bit based on many factors: heat loss to whatever vessel you're using, energy expended to warm the grain itself, stirring, etc. So adding 162F water to the mash will never result in an initial mash temp of 162F. It will always drop some amount. It's also common in most circumstances that the final temp at the end of the 60 or 90 minute mash will be a lower than when you started the mash. (Except if you have a well-regulated heated mash tun, etc.)

That being said, let's look at your three scenarios:
1: Mashing at 162F you'll get some conversion, but the beer will end up sweeter and with a much lower ABV.

2: This one is tricky to answer because of the way you wrote it. I don't knowif the oven is on or not, and to what temp it is set. Let's assume it is off, and you are just putting it in there to prevent heat loss.
Starting with a strike temp of 162F means you probably settle in somewhere in the midto high 150s to start. If you end At 154F after 90 minutes, the average mash temp was probably around 156F. I guessing there would be a few degrees temp drop over the 90 minutes even if it is in an oven because there will still be heat loss to the interior of the oven over that time. Regardless, at 154F you're somewhat in the middle of the range and the beer will have a good balance to it-- medium to medium-full body, medium to medium-low ABV compared to other mash temps in the range.

3: This scenario, if we're talking about the same amount of grain as the other two, demonstrates a large temp loss. However, we're talking about losing perhaps 10 degrees over the full 90 minutes. The vast majority of the conversion will take place in the first 30 minutes, and we can assume the temp at that time was higher than 146F. As a guess, mid to low 150s. So again, medium body, medium ABV as compared to other temps in the range.
 
You didn't mention what kind of mashing you are doing, traditional tun or BIAB nor did you mention who did the milling of the grain nor how the mill was set. All of these factors matter too. With BIAB I can work with grains that are milled very fine which then gets conversion extremely quickly. With that plus the fact that at mash temperatures the enzymes are quickly (how quickly isn't mentioned) denatured and conversion stops. The higher the temperature, the quicker the enzymes denature and at 162 the beta amylase denatures very quickly which then gives you a much less fermentable wort containing mostly dextrines.
 
Wowzers.. a lot of great info. I’m doing BIAB and milling with hand-crank corona mill. I’ll try to post a picture in a few minutes.
So finer grain start at a lower strike temp?
 
My milled grain... Is it a good size? Lol.
 

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Not necessarily. What mash temp is your recipe calling for? What are you using for a tun? What's the temp of your dry grain? Are you brewing inside a warm house or in a garage that's cold?
 
So finer grain start at a lower strike temp?

No, milled grain size doesn't have any relationship to strike temp. RM-MN was just pointing out the effect of higher mash temps on time of conversion. I think you need to do some more reading on the mash process, but I'll give a quick high-level summary to eliminate some of the confusion you might have. Mind you, this is very general:

When planning a mash the first thing you want to determine, before you start, is at what temperature you want to mash.
Mashing at a higher temperature (for example, 156F) will result in a beer with a full body and some sweetness to it. Mashing at a low temperature (for example, 148F) will result in a lighter body with a higher ABV. A temp around 152F will be medium body and average ABV. You determine the target temp based on the style of the beer or your own particular desire.

The reason for the different results:
The act of mashing is converting starches to sugar. There are two primary enzymes in the grain that are activated by the heat that perform this process. In the higher temperature range, the enzyme Alpha Amylase is more active. It will break down starches in a way which creates multiple different types of sugar. Most of the sugars created by Alpha Amylase cannot be eaten by yeast (fermented) so they remain in the beer. This is why higher temps will result in a sweeter, fuller-bodied beer.
Beta Amylase is more active in the lower mash temps. It rips through the starches like a shark at a feeding frenzy, resulting in sugar which is very easily consumed by yeast. That all gets turned into alcohol (hopefully) and results in a less sweet higher ABV beer.

Let's say you want to shoot for the middle: 152F.
When you know how much grain you're using you can calculate how much mash water you need. Let's pretend your recipe calls for 3 pounds of grain. The general ratio of water to grain is 1.25 quarts of water per pound of grain. So in this case, 3.75 quarts, or just a hair under 1 gallon of water.

Next, you need to know the strike temperature of the water you're adding. This is going to be based on whatever temperature you decided on above. The final mash temp you're looking for (152F) is the result of:
Strike water temp (minus) heat lost to the grain itself (minus) heat lost to the vessel (minus) heat lost to stirring.
There are calculators online to help you make an estimate. Look at this page. If you enter all the numbers above: 3 lbs grain, 3.75 water volume, 152F rest temp, the temperature of your dry grain before you start (I assumed 70F), it should come up with something like 165F. Meaning, if you want to mash at 152F for this recipe, you have to add about 1 gallon of 165F water to the grain.

Conversion is the term used to describe the process of the starch turning into sugar in the mash. The majority of conversion happens in the first 30 minutes. Everything is usually done in 60. Waiting 90 minutes is not an issue.

We haven't talked about sparging, which is the act of rinsing all of the sugars out of the grain when done mashing. But that's an entirely different topic. Additionally, carefully accounting for the pH level of the mash will help you be more successful, but don't worry about that for now-- concentrate on the basics first.

That's a general outline of how it works.
 
start at a lower strike temp?

As was pointed out earlier..."Strike Temp" is the temperature of your water before mixing it with your grains. Once you mix the two, the temperature will drop with the goal of hitting your "Mash Temp". There are a bunch of calculators out there for this...a few:
The hardest part to account for is the temp loss of your "equipment". For BIAB I will assume you are heating your strike water in the same pot you will mash in, so no heat loss there (vs say mixing your water and grain into a 70F cooler). If you wrap your pot in room temp blankets, there would be some heat loss into the blankets. I find you have to guess the first time, and tweak the numbers over a few batches to get them tuned in.
 
Thank you all for the really good info!
 

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