Mash temp question

[Joewalla88]

I was throwing together a quick batch of beer today, and I my rush I ended up mashing higher than I wanted. If I just let it mash for longer and let the temp drop, will it help with conversion. I want this beer to have some body, but not quite what it's going to have at the current temp. I've never really had major issues hitting my mash temps so I'm not sure how this is going to end up.

 

[RM-MN]

The devil is in the details! When you say you mashed higher than you wanted, we need numbers because the difference between a beer with body and wort that didn't convert right can be only a few degrees. Another factor is the crush of the grain. Finer crush converts faster and the enzymes are denatured faster too.

 

[Joewalla88]

Well, I was shooting for 155, and ended up starting out around 158-160. I'm not sure how accurate that was now though. I went to the store for about 90 minutes, and when I got back the thermometer said 140. I think issue was that I was doing a 2 gallon batch in my 8 gallon kettle, and the thermometer probe on the kettle was just barely covered by the top of the water. It converted fine. I think I'm actually asking the wrong question though. I think what I really want to know is about attenuation. If I start a mash at 155 let's say, and I let it sit for two hours and by the end it's at 148 or something. Which type of attenuation are going to get. A beer with more body like it was mashed at 155, or a dryer one that was mashed at 148? I normally mash around 148-150, and don't usually stray to far from that, so I don't really know much about how this would work. Usually I use a calculator and get everything set up right, but this was just for a 2 gallon experimental sahti, so I was just kinda throwing it together.

 

[day_trippr]

Time was likely your friend.
Assuming a decent crush a mash starting at ~155°F and ending two hours later at 148°F should tend towards the dry side.
Starting at 160°F and ending two hours later at 140°F may as well...

Cheers!

 

[Joewalla88]

Time was likely your friend.
Assuming a decent crush a mash starting at ~155°F and ending two hours later at 148°F should tend towards the dry side.
Starting at 160°F and ending two hours later at 140°F may as well...

Cheers!

Cool thanks. My mash tun usually keeps the temp pretty well over an hour or so, but this was just left in the kettle, and it didn't keep the temp quite the same, so I wasn't sure what to expect. Thanks!

 

[dmtaylor]

I wouldn't sweat it too much.

 

[Joewalla88]

Oh I'm not sweating it. I'm just curious about how some of this works. I've been brewing for almost 6 years, and have never really messed with the mash temp. So I've never been that curious. I like my beers at 148-150, so that's where I generally keep them. But since this was something different, it got me wondering. Now I have a new question. I know the enzymes will denature at too high of a temp, but what if the temp gets too low, can I raise it back up to 150 to finish? Or are the enzymes done when they're done. I don't think they'd be done at any 138, but just less efficient.

 

[dmtaylor]

Oh I'm not sweating it. I'm just curious about how some of this works. I've been brewing for almost 6 years, and have never really messed with the mash temp. So I've never been that curious. I like my beers at 148-150, so that's where I generally keep them. But since this was something different, it got me wondering. Now I have a new question. I know the enzymes will denature at too high of a temp, but what if the temp gets too low, can I raise it back up to 150 to finish? Or are the enzymes done when they're done. I don't think they'd be done at any 138, but just less efficient.

Enzymes will be preserved at lower temperature, so, if you're going to come in high or low, all other things being equal, it's better to come in low and raise it up than to come in too high and reduce temp.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I believe you'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference between 155°F and 158°F mashed beers. The detail would likely differ in OG by a few points at most.

 

[tootal]

At 160 your in alpha territory and beta is dead so you probably will have a beer with more mouthfeel. I'm sure it's fine but your OG might be less than normal. I mash at 159 for Imperial Stouts. Yours was probably converted before it ever cooled below 150.

 

[Joewalla88]

Cool, thanks. I'm not too worried about, just curious on how some of those enzymes work. Never really thought too much about it I guess.

 

[day_trippr]

This might help...

Cheers!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Researcher Scott Janish concludes (in agreement with 1989 research which overturned 1961 and 1977 research) that elevated dextrins are not at all a precursor to improved mouthfeel, and in effect at the perception level they don't do much of anything at all. Mouthfeel increase actually comes from elevated Glycerol and Beta Glucans. Janish also discovered that Carapils is pretty much useless, and that (counter to claims) it is rather highly fermentable. He got a beer made with 50% Carapils to ferment out to a rather typical 1.014 FG.

http://scottjanish.com/dextrins-and-mouthfeel/

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

As to my own research on this, I tossed a pound of pure maltodextrin into a 6 gallon all grain Lager recipe roughly 2 years ago, and in the end I could not perceive any effect with regard to improved mouthfeel thereby. All it did (in my opinion) was raise the FG and increase the calories.

 

[madscientist451]

John Palmer's book How to Brew gives a pretty good explanation of
how enzymes work and what to expect. You can just read the chapter on enzymes in the free on line version if you want to.
I've been using the strike temperature calculator on the Green Bay Rackers site for several years and always hit my initial mash temp.
If you start off high then it goes low, you can always warm it up again, its not the recommended method of course, but it will still make beer.

 

[Joewalla88]

Thanks for the info. This is definately helpful

 

[tootal]

It was my understanding that Carapils was more for head retention and is the reason I use it. Also, using higher mash temps as in 160F does give you more mouthfeel since it isn't as fermentable as a beer mashed in the beta range. As mentioned, when we brew Imp. Stout we mash at 158F to 160F. Our final gravity is around 1.035 to 1.040. So our 1.090 OG only ends up around 6-7% by volume which means it's not really an Imperial version but it's very silky in mouthfeel and a wonderful flavor which is what we were after. I'm not arguing anybody's science just expressing personal experience.

 

[Jag75]

I just did a NEIPA . It called for a mash @146 * for 45 minutes. Dont know why . Does a higher projected abv beer have lower temp mashes?

 

[Joewalla88]

I just did a NEIPA . It called for a mash @146 * for 45 minutes. Dont know why . Does a higher projected abv beer have lower temp mashes?

The general idea is that lower mash temps make the wort more fermentable. So the FG will lower, and the ABV will be higher. It doesn't necessarily mean that the OG will be higher. It just means that there will be more fermentable sugars in the wort for the yeast to eat.

 

[Jag75]

The general idea is that lower mash temps make the wort more fermentable. So the FG will lower, and the ABV will be higher. It doesn't necessarily mean that the OG will be higher. It just means that there will be more fermentable sugars in the wort for the yeast to eat.

Gotcha , ty

 

[MaplePaddle]

Curious to know what your FG and attenuation. My guess is you had complete conversation in the 1st 30 min at 158F.

 

[Joewalla88]

Curious to know what your FG and attenuation. My guess is you had complete conversation in the 1st 30 min at 158F.

I'm hoping to bottle it soon, so I'll let you know. I'm not sure if I'm prepared to drink this yet. I was really curious about Sahti, but I'm a little scared to drink it. If it doesn't turn out that good, I don't think conversion or attenuation are going to have anything to do with it.

 

[tootal]

Ha! I have a friend from Finland. I told him I was thinking about brewing Sahti. He told me to let him know when it was ready to drink because he didn't want to be anywhere near it!!

 

[Joewalla88]

Okay, I just sampled this. I don't think conversion is going to be a problem. I think Sahti is the problem. Still trying to decide whether to bottle this and keep it as a novelty thing, or dump it. Its rough.

 

[Gameface]

In real world experiments (and some exbeeriments) the difference between different mash temps is hardly perceptible. At one extreme to the other, like 146 vs 158, you'll get a point or two difference in FG. But tasting the beers side-by-side you'd be hard pressed to reliably pick them out based on mash temp. Not that we shouldn't strive to achieve consistent mash temps and to use a mash temp that makes sense according to the beer we're making and to have greater consistency from batch to batch, but it certainly isn't a thing to get worried about or to fiddling with our beer to "fix."

 

[tootal]

A Finnish brewmaster once asked me what I thought of a Kolsch brewed by a local brewery. Having had Kolsch from Cologne I gave it a try. It was too heavy of a mouthfeel and too hoppy. He agreed. At that point the brewmaster was walking by and he asked him if he mashed it at 153 degrees. The brewmaster said no, it was 154. Now this guy has a pallet! I couldn't believe he was within one degree of mash temp by just tasting. Of course he explained he should mash at 148 and no higher!!! This guy is brutally honest which I love about him.

 

[dmtaylor]

the brewmaster was walking by and he asked him if he mashed it at 153 degrees. The brewmaster said no, it was 154. Now this guy has a pallet! I couldn't believe he was within one degree of mash temp by just tasting.

I can't believe it either. Totally absurd. I very seriously doubt there is anyone on this Earth who can taste a difference between a mash at 148 F vs. 154 F, all else being equal... much less 153 F vs. 154 F. Absurd.

 

[tootal]

So what benefit would I have to make up such a story. People who know this guy know his abilities. He is an amazing talent! BTW, I wasn't the only witness and even the Brewmaster tells this story on himself!

 

[dmtaylor]

I don't think you made it up. I think his great ego is greatly biased.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

That Scott Janish link above is interesting: http://scottjanish.com/dextrins-and-mouthfeel/

The more I read, the more I start to think that mash temps have very little impact on mouthfeel qualities. On another thread I posted a link to an article that pointed toward findings that mouthfeel added by the alcohol of a high attenuated beer pretty much cancelled out the reduced mouthfeel of the lower level of dextrins.

 

[tootal]

Another story about him. I brought him a Kolsch that I had brewed but it had a cloying taste to it. Although it was clean it just wasn't Kolsch. He tasted it and asked me if I used any Vienna or Carapils. I told him Carapils. That's the problem. You should use German Pilsner malt and maybe a little wheat but nothing else. The next batch I made, using his advise, was excellent. He was the Brewmaster at a local brewery and made amazing beers. Too bad the restaurant side put them out of business. He's also a BJCP instructor. Hey, it's not bragging if you can really do it!

 

[Soulshine2]

It aint bragging if you can back it up. Truth ,right there.
Any chance you can get that guy in here ??

 

[dmtaylor]

He must be a supertaster. To me Carapils is completely worthless, as it adds flavors entirely identical to pilsner malt.